Imaginary Locomotives

[AlfaZagato]

Hi Alfa,

 

How about this as alternative styling for 10000 ?

 

10000.jpg

 

Gibbo.

 

Probably would last as long as cowl-units in the US.   That visibility is atrocious.

[brack]

EE?

 

http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~efbrazil/ee_bahia.html

 

Armstrong Whitworth were the better bet, either the train set/mobile generator as per Brazil and Argentina or the locos built for India, Sri Lanka and Argentina. To be honest the 1C1 800hp loco than ran on the LNER acquitted itself reasonably well (until a crankcase explosion led to it's retirement) and a production batch of those in 1933 would've been feasible if the LNER had any spare cash.

[Corbs]

Have you done anything with the Mainline J72?

 

They go for beans on eBay, although that's probably because most of them don't work.  However, the body detail was really good for a 1970s model, they are a type built over a huge period (isn't it 52 years?) and they, or at least something looking very like J72s, were sold by the NER into industry.  Milford Docks and Harbour Company certainly had one and that's almost as far as you can get from the LNER.  So having one or more sold to the NWR might be plausible.  I will certainly make something like the MDHC version with one of my spare ones.

 

Even if they don't work, for next to nothing you could have a couple lying out of use on depot as a (recently replaced) shunting class.

 

I hadn't thought about them before although Captain Kernow has a couple that have been sold into private use, one as an NCB shunter and another working on the Vale of Radnor Light Railway

It may be the J76 you are thinking of? One of them ended up at Milford.

https://www.lner.info/locos/J/j76.php

I think the Lambton Railways bought several ex-NE locos in the early 20th/late 19th Century.

 

 

 

Sort of linked to this, would anyone care to pontificate on a fictional rebuild?

 

The year is 1944. The tide of the war is turning. You are the CME of the NWR and foresee a need come the end of hostilities for some new locos of class 3F/3MT, the current loco stud is taking a battering and maintenance backlogs are getting worse. The board has declined your proposal to go back to North British and order some new locos, but they will release funds for rebuilding and/or purchasing second hand locos.

What is available at this time?

 

The NWR now has a good working relationship with the LMS through Stanier. Thompson is in the hot seat at the LNER, the goodwill there died with Sir

Nigel, but Thompson is in a similar position of not being able to build many new locos. There is no working relationship with the Southern Railway (though Mr. Bulleid is doing interesting things), but over in Swindon your old mate Hawksworth is making his mark.

Whilst Frederick or William aren't willing to sell us any more new locos, maybe they have some old junk they want rid of? But once we get it, how can we rebuild and improve it to do what we want?

 

Our requirements are for shunting and weight restricted branch lines. Tender locos not essential but more time between refuelling is advantageous.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Corbs

[brack]

2 J71s (essentially a J72 with different sized wheels) ended up in collieries in the north east, a couple of J77s were sold to the ministry of fuel and power and got further afield. No J72s were sold.

The entire class of J72s lasted til the mid 50s, and the J71s mostly lasted well too. By the time they were on the way out so were some of the pits and the NCB had plenty of austerities and even diesels available, so a 60 year old loco presumably wasn't too attractive.

The J76/77 dated from the 1870s/1880s and were very well used by the time they were being retired, which is probably why industries weren't so keen.

[brack]

As for picking up locos in 1943, good luck! in the war you would struggle to get new production as builders were working full pelt and lines were putting locos back into service thatd been withdrawn. You want a nice new loco to shift a few housewives up and down a country branch line? everyones churning out austerities, 8Fs or WDs (or weird looking Pacific's

that don't work so well).Strategic, preferably direct military importance or you're not getting much. In 1943/4 a WD or S160 or two might be supplied, but that would be overkill.

Remember that since 1940 the lines in the UK were essentially run as one by the railway executive, so would your line be part of that? If your system was big enough and part of the UK there wouldn't be much choice. If not part of the UK you wouldn't be getting much coal - look what the Irish lines had to deal with during the war (the emergency) and they were neutral.

Things that come to mind are the LNER loaning the GWR a bunch of J25s to cover for Dean goods that'd gone to war.

[Corbs]

As for picking up locos in 1943, good luck! in the war you would struggle to get new production as builders were working full pelt and lines were putting locos back into service thatd been withdrawn. You want a nice new loco to shift a few housewives up and down a country branch line? everyones churning out austerities, 8Fs or WDs (or weird looking Pacific's

that don't work so well).Strategic, preferably direct military importance or you're not getting much. In 1943/4 a WD or S160 or two might be supplied, but that would be overkill.

Remember that since 1940 the lines in the UK were essentially run as one by the railway executive, so would your line be part of that? If your system was big enough and part of the UK there wouldn't be much choice. If not part of the UK you wouldn't be getting much coal - look what the Irish lines had to deal with during the war (the emergency) and they were neutral.

Things that come to mind are the LNER loaning the GWR a bunch of J25s to cover for Dean goods that'd gone to war.

 

Yes, this is what I mean by foreseeing a need (i.e. when the war is over and we have to give all these loaned locos back). The invasion build-up has begun and it's time to start looking forward. 

If I move the date later then it'll make more sense.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Corbs

[Flying Pig]

Probably would last as long as cowl-units in the US.   That visibility is atrocious.

No worse than a steam loco and not much worse than a 156 or a 350.

[runs as required]

Hi Alfa,

 

How about this as alternative styling for 10000 ?

 

10000.jpg

 

Gibbo.

to remedy the criticism posted above of the driver's view ahead I couldn't resist cutting and pasting a contemporaneous French autorail's roof level 'Picasso' Driver's perch onto your modded 10000

and ...Hey presto - a late 1940s early EE Deltic front end design study !

 

dh

[Northmoor]

It may be the J76 you are thinking of? One of them ended up at Milford.

https://www.lner.info/locos/J/j76.php

I think the Lambton Railways bought several ex-NE locos in the early 20th/late 19th Century.

Thanks Corbs - I've surfed that site many times and never noticed this.   Obviously I need to look harder at the photo I have of "Ajax", as the cab must be all wrong for a J72.

 

As I have a few non-running J72s, I might still ignore history and invoke Rule 1....

[brack]

Thanks Corbs - I've surfed that site many times and never noticed this. Obviously I need to look harder at the photo I have of "Ajax", as the cab must be all wrong for a J72.

 

As I have a few non-running J72s, I might still ignore history and invoke Rule 1....

The cab on Ajax is all wrong, but Neptune (a rebuilt ner 964 class) does have a square cornered cab:

https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/BRITISH-INDUSTRIAL-LOCOMOTIVES/INDUSTRIAL-DIESEL-AND-ELECTRIC/i-bg72HK5

 

Although an NER 964 class can look rather different depending on when/how much it'd been rebuilt:

 

https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/BRITISH-INDUSTRIAL-LOCOMOTIVES/INDUSTRIAL-DIESEL-AND-ELECTRIC/i-DpDSTCh

 

Given they were originally NER no.s 969 and 973, both built by Stephenson's in 1875 you see how different some of the Fletcher era designs could end up.

 

I think I've read that worsdell looked at the cost of the 964 rebuilds and decided he'd have been better off just building new locos, hence the J71/J72 classes were built.

Edited November 9, 2018 by brack

[runs as required]

The cab on Ajax is all wrong, but Neptune (a rebuilt ner 964 class) does have a square cornered cab:

https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/BRITISH-INDUSTRIAL-LOCOMOTIVES/INDUSTRIAL-DIESEL-AND-ELECTRIC/i-bg72HK5

 

Although an NER 964 class can look rather different depending on when/how much it'd been rebuilt:

 

https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/BRITISH-INDUSTRIAL-LOCOMOTIVES/INDUSTRIAL-DIESEL-AND-ELECTRIC/i-DpDSTCh

 

Given they were originally NER no.s 969 and 973, both built by Stephenson's in 1875 you see how different some of the Fletcher era designs could end up.

I think I've read that worsdell looked at the cost of the 964 rebuilds and decided he'd have been better off just building new locos, hence the J71/J72 classes were built.

Thanks for this neat summary

I'm just off to the Newcastle MRS Nov. exhibition at Heaton Manor School and can never ever remember the relationship between NER Fletcher and the Worsdells' classes and all those confusing LNE bluddy Js.

They do say no two Fletcher engines were ever identical - which I find comforting.

Do you imagine Fletcher left it to Stephensons to decide on details when he ordered from outside suppliers?

 

[ My only foray into actual engine 'spotting' was in 1947 - I'd splashed out a birthday half crown on an Ian Allan ABC of LNER nos. and a ticket - only to get to Stratford (from Chigwell Lane now Debden) to find all the LNER locos had just been re-numbered.

Ridicule and humiliation followed as ever from all the big kids! I never again risked it ]

dh

[brack]

Yes, Fletcher locos come in a huge number of classes, yet within each class there was apparently more variation, some classes having a couple of different types of side tank, saddle tank, back tank, different wheel diameters and goodness knows what else. In his defence the two 964s pictured probably did start out identical (because they were built in the same batch by Stephenson's - their original numbers were 4 apart, so they probably were in the erecting shop together) and the divergence in appearance is down to significant rebuilding. I do wonder what the black hawthorn 964s built a year or two earlier looked like though.

 

There seem to have been a good amount of 964s disposed of from 1900 to 1914 to quite a few collieries and docks in the north east and further afield. Presumably as the NER built enough of the worsdell standardised shunters they chucked all Fletcher's stuff out.

[Corbs]

More musings on rebuilding the old ROD 2-8-0 with an 8F boiler and converting to a tank loco a la Thompson's Q1....

 

[RedGemAlchemist]

More musings on rebuilding the old ROD 2-8-0 with an 8F boiler and converting to a tank loco a la Thompson's Q1....

 

NWR-7F-3.jpg

Wow. That's an interesting design. 2-8-4T isn't something you see much of. Edited November 13, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[Compound2632]

Terrifying slab-sided monster! Seriously, I think the bogie is rather a long way back and it looks like quite a hike from the bunker shovelling plate to the firebox door.

[Corbs]

That’s a good point, though I didn’t change that part of the cab from the Fowler 2-6-4T, unless the Fowler has a fair bit of firebox inside the cab? Which in turn would mean the cab and bogie could come forward a bit?

[Compound2632]

On both the 4P 2-6-4T and the 8F 2-8-0, the trailing driven axle is a bit further back relative to the firebox than the ROD 2-8-0 with 8F boiler - the ROD coupled wheelbase is less than the 8F?

[Flying Pig]

Are all the pictures you've pasted together to the same scale?

[Gibbo675]

That’s a good point, though I didn’t change that part of the cab from the Fowler 2-6-4T, unless the Fowler has a fair bit of firebox inside the cab? Which in turn would mean the cab and bogie could come forward a bit?

Hi Corbs,

 

This link should help;

 

http://www.8fsociety.co.uk/page10.html

 

From weight diagram drawings you can see the outlines of the various sizes and relationships of the components so that you can work out whether they might fit together in a reasonable fashion. Take note of the area under the firebox and its relationship to axle positions and ash pan clearances, also with tank engines that there is access to the various washout plugs and mud doors especially above the foundation ring.

 

Gibbo.

[Niels]

Wow. That's an interesting design. 2-8-4T isn't something you see much of.

There is one here:

 

http://www.albert-gieseler.de/dampf_de/imageHtml/imagedet107168.shtml

[Compound2632]

There is one here:

 

http://www.albert-gieseler.de/dampf_de/imageHtml/imagedet107168.shtml

 

Now that does look like a 2-8-0 that's had a nasty run-in with its bogie tender. 

[Corbs]

Are all the pictures you've pasted together to the same scale?

 

They weren't to begin with, but I scaled them to the same size - on all 3 locos the distance from running plate to cab roof is approximately the same (measured on my models, so take that with a pinch of salt)

 

Hi Corbs,

 

This link should help;

 

http://www.8fsociety.co.uk/page10.html

 

From weight diagram drawings you can see the outlines of the various sizes and relationships of the components so that you can work out whether they might fit together in a reasonable fashion. Take note of the area under the firebox and its relationship to axle positions and ash pan clearances, also with tank engines that there is access to the various washout plugs and mud doors especially above the foundation ring.

 

Gibbo.

 

Very useful, thanks Gibbo!

 

From your link I was able to work out a few things. I also measured my 8F vs my O4, and it seems that the difference in length between 3rd and 4th axles is about 6 inches (2mm ish in 4mm scale).

O4 has an even coupled wheelbase and 8F has uneven, but overall length of coupled wheelbase is very similar.

I used a few common sizes to lay the drawing I could find of the O4 over the one for the 8F from your link, and tried to position it so that there is about 1.5" difference fore and aft of the 3rd and 4th axles difference to the 8F to maximise chances of the foundation ring etc. fitting.

 

 

From this it looks like I'd positioned the 8F components too far aft on my first attempt (lining the cab fronts up) and the whole lot needed to move forward.

 

Here's a second attempt at the 2-8-0 with the boiler etc. repositioned (which I quite like)

 

Then here's that with the 4P overlaid on top at the same scale.

 

Here's it with the tanks extended up and along (Thompson's Q1 design initially suffered from inadequate water capacity) and a hole between 3rd and 4th coupled axles to get to the bottom of the firebox.

 

It sort of puts me in mind of a Fairburn or Stanier 2-6-4T on steroids.

 

Sloping forward tanks to improve visibility when shunting.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Corbs

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Terrifying slab-sided monster! Seriously, I think the bogie is rather a long way back and it looks like quite a hike from the bunker shovelling plate to the firebox door.

 

Indeed... 

 

 

 

Kitson built, I think.  Easily knocked up from a Bachmann 04 and some cornflakes packets I should think.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[Corbs]

That was the other inspiration Indeed Kitson built and actually predates the ROD locos by about 10 years even though it looks like it's been built from one!

 

Here's another monstrous version with the tanks based on the Q1.

 

OR could go the other way and fit a smaller boiler, moved forward in the frames as per the Q1, basically using similar components to the fowler but extending the smokebox.

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Corbs

[Corbs]

I prefer tapered boilers.

 

 

Using a smaller diameter boiler (as on the 4P), shorter too. More room for water in the tanks....?