Imaginary Locomotives

[Gibbo675]

The return cranks are in back quarter, this configuration would normally result in the loco going cylinders first. It was normal practice for radius rods to be down in the usual direction of travel but most locos have the cylinders at the front end.

Hi Mike,

 

I haven't actually looked at the photos closely, what is the arrangement of the combination lever top joint ?

 

Gibbo.

[AlfaZagato]

Organised chaos probably.

 

Don't let Gresley near that, or we'll have a 50% increase in cylinders.

[melmerby]

I wonder what a Beyer-Garratt Kitson-Meyer would be like.

About as complex as a Mallett-Garratt.

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/quadruplex/garrattquads.gif

(I thoink this has been mentioned before)

 

This is bit like a Kitson Garratt:

http://railwaywondersoftheworld.com/wpimages/wp8decca8a_05_06.jpg

 

Keith

Edited December 11, 2018 by melmerby

[melmerby]

Don't let Gresley near that, or we'll have a 50% increase in cylinders.

And he will conjugate the valve gear.

 

Keith

[The Johnster]

the links are to Antofagasta & Bolivia railway meyers at Uyuni and the photo is of what was the last running TalTal meyer

 

From one of the Colin Garratt books, can't remember which one.  He says the loco was steamed for the photograph having been derelict for some time, and failed terminally in a cloud of steam within seconds of this image being recorded; luckily nobody was hurt...

[melmerby]

From one of the Colin Garratt books, can't remember which one.  He says the loco was steamed for the photograph having been derelict for some time, and failed terminally in a cloud of steam within seconds of this image being recorded; luckily nobody was hurt...

It's one of 11 stock photos of the same loco "at work" in 2013 from the Alamy website.

 

Keith

[Michael Edge]

Hi Mike,

 

I haven't actually looked at the photos closely, what is the arrangement of the combination lever top joint ?

 

Gibbo.

 

Below the valve spindle as usual for slide valves.

[Niels]

How a three-cylinder BR standard pacific could have been made from superfluous 9F parts

https://imgur.com/CTSJ70h

[Gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

 

Here is the return of my now painted Airfix / Dapol City of Truro kit bash. It hasn't been lined out as I haven't any lining transfers so that will be for another day or even not at all fr it doesn't look too bad unlined.

 

It is an inside cylinder forerunner of Dean's 100 class that was developed alongside the Aberdare 2-6-0 although it caries the short cone boiler of No. 98. The eight wheel tender is to give balance to its massive main frames, because Great Bear had one and because it looks good.

 

Boiler Pressure 200 lbs

Cylinders 18.5" X 26"

Driving Wheels 6' 8.5"

Tractive Effort 18792 lbs

 

 

Gibbo.

[The Johnster]

How a three-cylinder BR standard pacific could have been made from superfluous 9F parts

https://imgur.com/CTSJ70h

 

Might distribute the weight better as a 2-6-4, but you'd have to cut the frames short at the rear to accommodate the rear bogie.  You have to do this anyway to clear the trailing pony, unless it's to be a radial axle in which case it probably fouls or comes perilously near the ashpan.  I would envisage outside frames for this pony or bogie.

[Signal Box Cat]

 

Hi Folks,

 

Here is the return of my now painted Airfix / Dapol City of Truro kit bash. It hasn't been lined out as I haven't any lining transfers so that will be for another day or even not at all fr it doesn't look too bad unlined.

 

It is an inside cylinder forerunner of Dean's 100 class that was developed alongside the Aberdare 2-6-0 although it caries the short cone boiler of No. 98. The eight wheel tender is to give balance to its massive main frames, because Great Bear had one and because it looks good.

 

Boiler Pressure 200 lbs

Cylinders 18.5" X 26"

Driving Wheels 6' 8.5"

Tractive Effort 18792 lbs

 

DSCF0549.JPG

DSCF0550.JPG

DSCF0551.JPG

 

Gibbo.

 

WONDERFUL!!

[melmerby]

 

Hi Folks,

 

Here is the return of my now painted Airfix / Dapol City of Truro kit bash. It hasn't been lined out as I haven't any lining transfers so that will be for another day or even not at all fr it doesn't look too bad unlined.

 

It is an inside cylinder forerunner of Dean's 100 class that was developed alongside the Aberdare 2-6-0 although it caries the short cone boiler of No. 98. The eight wheel tender is to give balance to its massive main frames, because Great Bear had one and because it looks good.

 

Boiler Pressure 200 lbs

Cylinders 18.5" X 26"

Driving Wheels 6' 8.5"

Tractive Effort 18792 lbs

 

DSCF0549.JPG

DSCF0550.JPG

DSCF0551.JPG

 

Gibbo.

 

That tender looks closer to this:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_07_2012/post-8920-0-03948500-1343544064.jpg

 

Than the Great Bear's double bogie job.

http://www.gwr.org.uk/tenders/2912-8-wheeled-tender-exeter.jpg

 

Which had teeny wheels with inside bearings.

 

keith

Edited December 22, 2018 by melmerby

[Gibbo675]

That tender looks closer to this:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_07_2012/post-8920-0-03948500-1343544064.jpg

 

Than the Great Bear's double bogie job.

http://www.gwr.org.uk/tenders/2912-8-wheeled-tender-exeter.jpg

 

Which had teeny wheels with inside bearings.

 

keith

Hi Kieth,

 

I did consider a bogie tender using the left over bogies form a Dapol crane kit but decided that a small tank version of the tender trailed by the Manor in your first link would be the better option. The other consideration was that making the tender look as the Great Bear's internal bearing variant was too much hassle and wouldn't look as good.

 

The main reason for the mention of the Great Bear was more to do with it being a locomotive of that time.

 

Gibbo.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 ...It is a (4-6-0) inside cylinder forerunner of Dean's 100 class that was developed alongside the Aberdare 2-6-0 ...

 Well you can't stop there! The outside frame 5'8" wheel 2-8-0 is going to be even more impressive...

[Gibbo675]

 Well you can't stop there! The outside frame 5'8" wheel 2-8-0 is going to be even more impressive...

Hi 34....B&D,

 

Such a machine would require two Prairie kits and another City of Truro kit. The main frames would need a lot of alteration to re-site the axle boxes, not to mention I have a Kitson-Meyer contraption to finish off along with a lot of Pullman cars to attend to.

 

Perhaps another day.

 

Gibbo.

[Catkins]

How a three-cylinder BR standard pacific could have been made from superfluous 9F parts

https://imgur.com/CTSJ70h

That looks Fugly!!

And with a fixed frame from the cylinders to the cab fall plate, offers all the dis-advantages of a 9F, with none of the traction benefits.

 

I think it would be ideal for the Highland Main Line! 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Catkins

[melmerby]

 Well you can't stop there! The outside frame 5'8" wheel 2-8-0 is going to be even more impressive...

We can't have that. If it was any good we wouldn't have seen Churchward's masterpiece - 47XX

 

Keith

[The Johnster]

We can't have that. If it was any good we wouldn't have seen Churchward's masterpiece - 47XX

 

Keith

 

I know a lot of people like the 47xx and reckon it was the best thing since sliced bread when it came to fast fitted freight work, but a locomotive banned by the Civil Engineers from most of the network can hardly be called a masterpiece, more a might have been...

 

It might, with a bit less on the axles, for example, have been the very thing for the very heavy but not all that fast South Wales expresses.

[RedGemAlchemist]

We can't have that. If it was any good we wouldn't have seen Churchward's masterpiece - 47XX

 

Keith

Sorry, think I misheard that. Should that have said Great Bear?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Churchward's masterpiece...

 

I would suggest that the masterpiece was his other 2-8-0. Right first time, and functionally sound to the end of steam, and established an enduring template. All but a handful of the 2,000 2-8-0s that came into BR's hands derive directly from Churchward's concept.

[melmerby]

I know a lot of people like the 47xx and reckon it was the best thing since sliced bread when it came to fast fitted freight work, but a locomotive banned by the Civil Engineers from most of the network can hardly be called a masterpiece, more a might have been...

 

It might, with a bit less on the axles, for example, have been the very thing for the very heavy but not all that fast South Wales expresses.

Why was it banned?

It's axle loading is well within the red category (<20T) in which quite a lot of locos were classified, e.g. Castles

 

keith

[The Johnster]

Why was it banned?

It's axle loading is well within the red category (<20T) in which quite a lot of locos were classified, e.g. Castles

 

keith

 

You are right; the 47xx with no.7 boiler is within the axle load for a normal 'red' route.  The Wikipedia entry states that the loco's large size limited it's route availability, so presumably the problem is one of loading gauge or length of coupled wheelbase.  They were limited to the same routes as Kings, which were restricted by axle loading issues, but interestingly when Kings were allowed to Cardiff and between Newport and Shrewsbury in 1962, AFAIK the 47xx were not.

[The Johnster]

I would suggest that the masterpiece was his other 2-8-0. Right first time, and functionally sound to the end of steam, and established an enduring template. All but a handful of the 2,000 2-8-0s that came into BR's hands derive directly from Churchward's concept.

 

The 28xx and 2884 derivates were phenomenally successful and can be regarded as a masterpiece.  They were one of the earliest British 2-8-0s, but as you say lasted until the end of steam on the WR in 1965.  No other British 2-8-0 ever surpassed them for performance, and the later improvements were in regard to ease of preparation and maintenance.  Their only rivals at the time in terms of performance were the Gresley 3 cylinder GNR engines, until Stanier revisited the concept with the LMS 8F.

 

I would regard them as influential as the Saints, which were the template for most later mixed traffic 4-6-0s on the GW and LMS as well as arguably the LNER B1s and BR standards.  The WR was perfectly happy with them and most sheds saw no need for the 9Fs as long as there were plenty of these and a few Austerities for the rough work, and Swindon would have happily built more of them in place of the 9Fs it did eventually build.

[62613]

Why was it banned?

It's axle loading is well within the red category (<20T) in which quite a lot of locos were classified, e.g. Castles

 

keith

Hammer-blow?

[Gibbo675]

You are right; the 47xx with no.7 boiler is within the axle load for a normal 'red' route.  The Wikipedia entry states that the loco's large size limited it's route availability, so presumably the problem is one of loading gauge or length of coupled wheelbase.  They were limited to the same routes as Kings, which were restricted by axle loading issues, but interestingly when Kings were allowed to Cardiff and between Newport and Shrewsbury in 1962, AFAIK the 47xx were not.

Hi Johnster,

 

I doubt that the restriction would have anything to do with either the axle loading or the physical size of the 47XX's compared to the Kings as they are height and width the same, also the swing of the buffer beam overthrow on curves is less than the Kings with 47XX' at 12' 3" buffer beam to leading axle and the Kings being 15' 9 3/4" therefore reducing its lateral kinetic envelope.

 

I would suspect that the reciprocal balance of the driving wheels and subsequent hammer blow effect would have more to do with the restriction than anything else. A few years back BR Std 4 76079 was given dispensation to traverse the Barmouth Bridge at reduced speed, 15 or 20 mph, this was due to perceived hammer blow at the reduced speed and not axle loading.

 

As an aside regarding the swing of buffer beam overthrow on curves, I was riding on Nunney Castle when it knocked quite a few platform copings from the edge of Earlstown station platforms on its mainline test run. That little episode left quite a gouge out of the end of the buffer beam which had to be weld repaired.

 

Gibbo.