Imaginary Locomotives

[The Johnster]

Absolutely; there is nothing new about air braked bogie hoppers or tipplers with buckeye couplers in the 70s.  The problem is similar to that of the 16ton mineral wagon on a 9' wheelbase; so entrenched in the minds of the customers that many years of attempted persuasion and fiduciary inducement on the part of the railway companies, and the GW was a leader in this respect in terms of the coal trade, had had little effect; the collieries, even when the NCB was in charge of them, insisted on 9' wheelbase wagons, preferably without vacuum brakes.  RTB were perfectly happy with the short wheelbase hoppers at Ebbw Vale, and even built facilities to handle them at their new plant at Llanwern; it was only the savings offered by the new deep water harbour at Port Talbot in the 70s that could handle bigger ships that convinced them to install more modern handling facilities at Llanwern; it was by then too late for Ebbw Vale!

 

Those collieries which installed MGR loading equipment were effectively forced to do so by the terms of the contracts they had with the CEGB.  

[Zomboid]

Buckeyes, or Janneys as the Merkans call them,

Both terms I think are actually the brand. The generic term is knuckle coupler I believe.

 

Though in the UK "buckeye" is a bit like "hoover" and "tannoy" in that sense.

[LNWR18901910]

Another something I have been working on since Bachmann's recent releases of the Atlantic models!

It's an LNWR Whale Atlantic 4-4-2. I know that the LNWR had Precursor Tank 4-4-2T tank locomotives, but this one is the Precusor Atlantic as I have decided. A total of 25 were built in 1907 to 1911 long after George Whale's death in 1910 and they were numbered 3025 - 3050. The first batch were originally unnamed but later named after Shakespearian characters, the second after Dickensian characters and the later batch after folklore figures. They survived into LMS days numbered in the 15500 and the last surviving examples into BR days only to be withdrawn by 1951 when the numbering block hit that of the Patriots. Fortunately, only one (No. 15673 Dick Turpin) was kept for preservation by the shed foreman at Shrewsbury and purchased by the NRM in the National collection and is currently on static display at Barrow Hill Roundhouse and Railway Museum.

[The Johnster]

Elegant, as Atlantics often were.  There's something of the Jersey Lily about this.

 

You might get away with a larger driving wheel diameter.  I like the potential of the names; can a Shakespeare one be 'The Bastard Of Faulconbridge' (from King John).  Please, just for me...

Edited November 4, 2018 by The Johnster

[The Fatadder]

Using up some old components to make a prototype early diesel passenger engine.

[Budgie]

A total of 25 were built in 1907 to 1911 long after George Whale's death in 1910 and they were numbered 3025 - 3050.

<pedantic>

I think you will find that there are 26 numbers between 3025 and 3050 inclusive.

</pedantic>

[LNWR18901910]

Elegant, as Atlantics often were.  There's something of the Jersey Lily about this.

 

You might get away with a larger driving wheel diameter.  I like the potential of the names; can a Shakespeare one be 'The Bastard Of Faulconbridge' (from King John).  Please, just for me...

I think Faulconbridge would be a good name for one of them.

[RLBH]

My personal opinion is that an 'ultimate' Ebbw Vale iron ore train loco would have been articulated, with the ability of a Beyer Garratt to incorporate a boiler of such diameter as could maximise the ability of the loading gauge being the way I imagine it would have gone.  We require brute power here, and the minimum of unkindness to the track; the big NSW Garratts show something like the loco in my imagination.  The requirement is to be able to haul a 2;000 ton load up the ruling gradient at 25mph without requiring a banker at Aberbeeg, which can then be dispensed with to save the money to pay for the locos...

Playing around with the mechanics of it all, I wind up with a 4-8-2+2-8-4 Garratt. Cylinders would have a 21" bore and 28" stroke, 60" driving wheels, and a 250psi boiler for a tractive effort of 87,465 lbf. An axle load of 21 tons, matched to that of a 56-ton bogie hopper, would give a factor of adhesion of 4.3, total weight of 265 tons and an overall length of about 118 feet; the grate would be something between 84 and 90 square feet, so mechanical firing would certainly be required.

 

It comes out to a big beast, rather larger than the EAR 59 class and therefore the most powerful Garratt ever built. But, it would be able to handle a train of twenty-four 56-ton hoppers between Newport and Ebbw Vale for a 2,000 ton train, or eighteen between Tyne Dock and Consett.

[LNWR18901910]

<pedantic>

I think you will find that there are 26 numbers between 3025 and 3050 inclusive.

</pedantic>

Ah, yes...thanks for pointing that out. 26 of these engines were built between 1907 to 1911 a year after Whale's death in 1910.

[brack]

Playing around with the mechanics of it all, I wind up with a 4-8-2+2-8-4 Garratt. Cylinders would have a 21" bore and 28" stroke, 60" driving wheels, and a 250psi boiler for a tractive effort of 87,465 lbf. An axle load of 21 tons, matched to that of a 56-ton bogie hopper, would give a factor of adhesion of 4.3, total weight of 265 tons and an overall length of about 118 feet; the grate would be something between 84 and 90 square feet, so mechanical firing would certainly be required.

 

It comes out to a big beast, rather larger than the EAR 59 class and therefore the most powerful Garratt ever built. But, it would be able to handle a train of twenty-four 56-ton hoppers between Newport and Ebbw Vale for a 2,000 ton train, or eighteen between Tyne Dock and Consett.

I like the idea - do you have rough boiler dimensions?

 

5' wheels seems like overkill, although I suppose they could use it to pull 30 coach trains over Shap and keep to timetable!

Having said that you could build it out of a bunch of Dapol 9F chassis parts as a model.

[melmerby]

Playing around with the mechanics of it all, I wind up with a 4-8-2+2-8-4 Garratt. Cylinders would have a 21" bore and 28" stroke, 60" driving wheels, and a 250psi boiler for a tractive effort of 87,465 lbf. An axle load of 21 tons, matched to that of a 56-ton bogie hopper, would give a factor of adhesion of 4.3, total weight of 265 tons and an overall length of about 118 feet; the grate would be something between 84 and 90 square feet, so mechanical firing would certainly be required.

 

It comes out to a big beast, rather larger than the EAR 59 class and therefore the most powerful Garratt ever built. But, it would be able to handle a train of twenty-four 56-ton hoppers between Newport and Ebbw Vale for a 2,000 ton train, or eighteen between Tyne Dock and Consett.

What about the Russian Class Ya-01 Garratt?

With similar sized wheels and 89268lb TE it is listed as the largest Garratt ever built.

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=Russia&wheel=Beyer-Garratt&railroad=ss

 

Keith

Edited November 4, 2018 by melmerby

[RLBH]

I like the idea - do you have rough boiler dimensions?

 

5' wheels seems like overkill, although I suppose they could use it to pull 30 coach trains over Shap and keep to timetable!

Having said that you could build it out of a bunch of Dapol 9F chassis parts as a model.

Big - I'm envisaging a 7 foot diameter boiler as per the LNER U1. Anything larger and I wouldn't be confident that the boiler would stay in gauge. The tubes would need to be 21 to 22 feet long, and I'd prefer a 7 foot 6 inch boiler to shorten them if that can be kept in gauge. The smokebox would have to be proportionate in size too.

 

The 60" drivers are there primarily to give the thing a decent turn of speed so it doesn't get in the way of other traffic more than necessary. There'd be no harm in something in the 54"-57" typical of heavy mineral locomotives if this wasn't a consideration, and would allow the cylinders and boiler to be reduced. The ability to build it out of 9F parts had also occurred to me.

 

As far as the Ya-01 goes, I had thought that locomotive was a bit smaller! Definitely in the same class anyway.

 

It occurs to me that the LNER U1 might not have been too shabby on this kind of work. A bit undersized, but it was basically two O4s with a common boiler, and I'm sure I've heard it had features that didn't really make sense as a dedicated banker....

[Michael Edge]

The U1 was tried on a train only once, it stopped short of steam more than once on the way up to Woodhead (eastwards). It wasn't very popular on the Worsbrough banking job either, at least with the firemen who realised that they were being asked to do two men's work. On the Lickey it was unpopular with guards as it was very difficult to judge buffering up to the train because of the distance between the cab and the buffers (at Wentworth Junction the trains were stationary when the bankers came on). All in all as the only six cylinder garratt ever built it was a poor effort.

[The Johnster]

I like the idea - do you have rough boiler dimensions?

 

5' wheels seems like overkill, although I suppose they could use it to pull 30 coach trains over Shap and keep to timetable!

Having said that you could build it out of a bunch of Dapol 9F chassis parts as a model.

 

You can't pull 30 coach trains over Shap; the length limit on nearly all British main lines is 20 coaches, equal to 60 standard wagon lengths.  I'd say that 5' drivers are larger than needed for Ebbw Vale/Consett work; we only want 25mph, but we need to accelerate fairly smartly to it to keep out of the way of the other traffic and preserve paths.  Main line work is a different story, though.  Smaller drivers might mean that the boiler could be lower pitched, which might mean it could be a larger diameter to provide more evaporative surface closer to the firebox.  The GW standard 4'7" driving wheels would be fine.

[melmerby]

The U1 was tried on a train only once, it stopped short of steam more than once on the way up to Woodhead (eastwards). It wasn't very popular on the Worsbrough banking job either, at least with the firemen who realised that they were being asked to do two men's work. On the Lickey it was unpopular with guards as it was very difficult to judge buffering up to the train because of the distance between the cab and the buffers (at Wentworth Junction the trains were stationary when the bankers came on). All in all as the only six cylinder garratt ever built it was a poor effort.

When first tried at Bromsgrove it faced chimney up which meant the crew had a whole engine & a boiler between them and the train to be banked.

It was turned to face cab up which was better with just one engine length but it was never really ideal either way.

 

All It proved was that the much simpler Midland 0-10-0 was much more suitable for the job, which was only usurped when the equally capable 9F appeared.

 

Keith

[runs as required]

What about the Russian Class Ya-01 Garratt?

With similar sized wheels and 89268lb TE it is listed as the largest Garratt ever built.

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=Russia&wheel=Beyer-Garratt&railroad=ss

 

Keith

There is a pic of this 1932 Gorton built Russian Garratt here

It looks very EAR&H except for the backwards R on its buffer beam

dh

[Michael Edge]

When first tried at Bromsgrove it faced chimney up which meant the crew had a whole engine & a boiler between them and the train to be banked.

It was turned to face cab up which was better with just one engine length but it was never really ideal either way.

 

All It proved was that the much simpler Midland 0-10-0 was much more suitable for the job, which was only usurped when the equally capable 9F appeared.

 

Keith

 

When they turned it round they had to pay careful attention to the water level over the firebox crown so that wasn't brilliant either.

[AlfaZagato]

Both terms I think are actually the brand. The generic term is knuckle coupler I believe.

 

Though in the UK "buckeye" is a bit like "hoover" and "tannoy" in that sense.

 

Knuckle is the generic.   Janney and Buckeye are from different Foundries and are to slightly different patents, and are about as compatible as Kato, Micro-Scale and Dapols are in N.

[The Johnster]

This is why South Wales Valleys work was normally done with the smokebox facing up the valley.  There is a myth that the prevalence of 0-6-2T types in the area were a consequence of having a slow slog uphill with the empties and running faster down the valley with the loadeds (coal traffic, now, not iron ore) needing a radial or pony truck to help guide the loco through the curves. I believe it originated with Ahrons, but is not true; the coal traffic was typified by fairly fast uphill runs with the empties which were always in short supply at the pits and had a sense of urgency to them (a pit could be stopped working by a lack of empties as there was no room at the surface to stockpile coal) and downhill loaded working featuring the loco having to pull hard down the gradients against the trains brakes, pinned down to prevent runaways (sometimes!).  An 0-6-2T can have a wider firebox and bigger boiler with the bunker placed over the trailing wheels, and is about the right size for a 30 mile round trip, which accounts for their popularity in South Wales.

 

A loco working hard with it's smokebox pointing downhill is more prone to priming as well, and if water gets in the cylinders...

[Corbs]

A loco working hard with it's smokebox pointing downhill is more prone to priming as well, and if water gets in the cylinders...

 

Sort of off-topic but all part of the education, what happens? Is it like when my mate drove his car through a flood and one of the rods bent like a banana?

[RedGemAlchemist]

Sort of off-topic but all part of the education, what happens? Is it like when my mate drove his car through a flood and one of the rods bent like a banana?

Google what happened to Blue Peter on October 1 1994.

Edited November 5, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[Corbs]

Google what happened to Blue Peter on October 1 1994.

Ah yes the 140mph while standing still incident. But why does that happen rather than the metalwork giving out like it did on the car engine?

[melmerby]

 Is it like when my mate drove his car through a flood and one of the rods bent like a banana?

I did that in a TR6.

Although the floodwater was not even up to floor level, Triumph (BL) had in their wisdom put the air intakes below the bottom of the radiator, therefore rendering any water deeper than 6 inches a disaster.

Needless to say after repair I re-routed the trunking much higher up.

 

Keith

 

Edit: It's obviously none the worse for that as it still exists and whoever now owns it has it fully taxed and MOT'ed (46 years old)

Edited November 5, 2018 by melmerby

[RedGemAlchemist]

Ah yes the 140mph while standing still incident. But why does that happen rather than the metalwork giving out like it did on the car engine?

Mainly to do with the far higher internal pressure in the cylinders of a steam locomotive compared to a car engine.

[Zomboid]

Knuckle is the generic. Janney and Buckeye are from different Foundries and are to slightly different patents, and are about as compatible as Kato, Micro-Scale and Dapols are in N.

I don't know about N couplers - is it the same as proper Kadees and the various types of junk that look a bit like Kadees?