Imaginary Locomotives

[DenysW]

3 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

... With only around a third of its weight on the single drivers, it must have had difficulty pulling anything. ...

I've several times been surprised at, with careful balancing, how much the designers could shift the weight and balance around to put more on the drivers.  According to Wikipedia, the 4-2-2 Midland 'spinners' managed to get 39% of the weight on the drive instead of the nominal 25%.

 

I've been unable to check is this is the case here.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, DenysW said:

I've several times been surprised at, with careful balancing, how much the designers could shift the weight and balance around to put more on the drivers.  According to Wikipedia, the 4-2-2 Midland 'spinners' managed to get 39% of the weight on the drive instead of the nominal 25%.

 

Successful to an embarrassing degree - I gather some fudging was required to get the axle loading on the Spinners down to the Engineer's 20 ton limit, at the official weighing in.

[John Besley]

5 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

 

Apart from any other oddity about this engine, does anyone recognise the valve gear?

 

Is it Stephensons outside admission to the steam chest...? 

 

I think a couple of Black 5's had that arrangement 

[tythatguy1312]

7 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

What on earth was it for?

Based on my observation of similar locomotives, it was likely for either light suburban work, branch line duty or pulling a director's coach. 2 coupled locos were used for those tasks, and initially performed them admirably before 2-4-2's and 0-6-0's superseded them.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

24 minutes ago, John Besley said:

 

Is it Stephensons outside admission to the steam chest...? 

 

I think a couple of Black 5's had that arrangement 

It's not Stephenson's, because the lifting link is attached to the valve rod. It could be Gooch, or it could be Allen, but I cannot work out what the link hanger is suspended from. It looks like it comes off the reverser weighshaft, as with Allen, but it doesn't appear to be offset far enough back.

 

Incidentally, I have found out a little bit more about this locomotive. This is a translation (mostly by Google) from https://www.miniaturbahn.at/product_info.php?products_id=2075:

Quote

The BBÖ class 12 was a class of express tank locomotive. Seeing the success of the kkStB class 112 [also a 2-2-2T], the BBÖ decided in 1934 to also procure tank locomotives for local express traffic. For cost reasons, however, class 97 0-6-0 tank locomotives (1898, Krauss/Linz) were converted. Two were rebuilt by the Floridsdorf locomotive factory in 1934 and 1937, numbers 97.153 and 97.152. The boiler and controls were unchanged. Oil firing, whose storage tank was installed on the rear part of the long boiler, enabled one-man operation. The machines were given a special finish, with the water tanks and the driver's cab painted light green. The small locomotives proved themselves well, but there were no further conversions, since from 1935 the BBÖ DT 1 could be used for short express trains. In 1938 the Deutsche Reichsbahn took over the machines as 69 001 and 69 002. Only the latter was still available after the Second World War and came to the ÖBB as 69.02, which converted it into a bridge test vehicle. The machine has survived to this day.

 

The BBÖ DT 1 mentioned above is also well worth a look at. Here os a web page (in German): https://de-academic.com/dic.nsf/dewiki/123028

and a photograph:

 

[John Besley]

If you kit bashed a centre cab diesel shunter, and a German tank engine to make something like that no one would believe you...

 

Which proves that if you look hard enough for it you'll find a prototype for everything (almost)

 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by John Besley

[Northmoor]

The BBO DT1 has been on this thread before I think; I imagine it's what might be created if I randomly picked four or five major components from the scrap box and glued them together.

[MikeOxon]

8 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

 

Apart from any other oddity about this engine, does anyone recognise the valve gear?

Is it Stephenson gear driving Lenz oscillating cam valves?

[JimC]

@CaledonianYank here, not as tidied up as it might be, is a Barry Class G 0-4-4T as never (although it could have been) Swindonised with pannier tanks and a Std 9 boiler. 

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by JimC
updated sketch

[JimC]

And here's the odd little Dean O-4-4 No 34, updated from back tank to pannier tank with a new boiler.

 

I'm not feeling very inspired at the moment about your other missing types. The larger tank engines would be problematic since there would be issues of visibility with the length of boiler, and water capacity due to the greater diameter of the boiler reducing space for tanks.

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by JimC

[Hroth]

An Imaginary DMU class

 

In 1960, the Blue Pullman went into service, conceived as a premium service to compete with motor cars and domestic airlines, it was a relative success, though being seen as underpowered and not economically viable due to stronger competition from other modes of transport. They were withdrawn in the mid-70s after a mere 15 years of operational life.

 

However

 

What if BR had had the imagination to use the design as a platform for a larger class of modern high-speed DMUs to run nationwide express services instead of conventional loco-hauled trains, rather than the limited routes of the Pullman? Sets with first and second class accommodation (as implemented in the WR Pullman sets), improved bogies and uprated engines (1500hp each) in the power cars would allow 90-100 mph service speeds to be achieved without stress and also allow formations to be increased by several coaches to increase capacity. Coaches would share design features of the Pullman coaches and the new BR Mk2 design.  The increase in class size would result in economies both in operation and maintenance.

 

There would be no need to "improve" the visual design of the Pullman concept, other than a new livery for this general service class. Assuming such a high speed DMU class would emerge in the mid-60s, it would probably carry the new XP64 livery with blue power cars with small yellow warning panels and blue/grey coaches.  I'd like to think a "large arrow" logo would appear in on the sides of the power cars rather than the odd "arrows on a red field" of the experimental livery.

 

This would essentially form an HST Mk1, replacing old-fashioned loco-hauled passenger trains and leave an evolutionary gap allowing the real world HST/Intercity 125 to be developed on time, offering higher speeds on conventional routes.  After the introduction of the Intercity 125, the older class would only have been in operation for a decade or so, and would be an ideal candidate to replace secondary services being provided by older first generation "semi-fast" DMUs.

 

There are plenty of ratty old Triang Blue Pullmans about.....

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Hroth
Tidying the first paragraph...

[BernardTPM]

Ah yes, I did a photomontage of one of these, earlier in the thread (so the picture has probably gone), using the Metro Cammell Blue Pullman shells but not air conditioned, with the same windows as their Mk.1 Pullmans:

 

 

Livery is based around the early colours used on the 'New Design for British Railways' exhibit in 1963. Power car diagram:

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by BernardTPM

[billy_anorak59]

I did a similar trick, but came at it from a 'what a waste to scrap all those 10 year old Warships' point of view - cut them in half, and make a sort of HST MK1 at either end of a rake. Got as far as this, but couldn't resolve the body profile mis-match between a 42 and a Mk1....totally useless exercise of course!

 

[LNWR18901910]

17 minutes ago, billy_anorak59 said:

I did a similar trick, but came at it from a 'what a waste to scrap all those 10 year old Warships' point of view - cut them in half, and make a sort of HST MK1 at either end of a rake. Got as far as this, but couldn't resolve the body profile mis-match between a 42 and a Mk1....totally useless exercise of course!

 

Good luck to nayone who can attempt this in model-form!

[AlfaZagato]

I had made a slightly different proposal.    Assuming that the Blue Pullmans had stuck around a lot longer to become run down, remotoring them with EMD prime movers for modern service.

[BernardTPM]

There was a proposal to fit them with gas turbines and new bogies (inside bearing, like the Budd Metroliner).

[BernardTPM]

1 hour ago, billy_anorak59 said:

I did a similar trick, but came at it from a 'what a waste to scrap all those 10 year old Warships' point of view - cut them in half, and make a sort of HST MK1 at either end of a rake.

Technically it would be very difficult to cut their monocoque bodies in half without major structural issues. Simpler to replace one cab with a guard's compartment to make a single-ended design, then place one each end of a rake. With 4000hp that should give pretty good performance.... but it would still have the non-standard hydraulic transmission, one of the main reasons they were withdrawn so early in the first place.

Edited September 14, 2022 by BernardTPM

[Erichill16]

2 hours ago, billy_anorak59 said:

 Got as far as this, but couldn't resolve the body profile mis-match between a 42 and a Mk1....totally useless exercise of course!

 

The Westerns had the same profile as the Mk1s.

[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, Hroth said:

There are plenty of ratty old Triang Blue Pullmans about.....

Much easier "What if...?", will be to repaint a BP in CIE Orange/Black livery which they would have got had the purchase of the fleet for Irish Railways gone ahead in 1972.

[rodent279]

3 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Technically it would be very difficult to cut their monocoque bodies in half without major structural issues. Simpler to replace one cab with a guard's compartment to make a single-ended design, then place one each end of a rake. With 4000hp that should give pretty good performance.... but it would still have the non-standard hydraulic transmission, one of the main reasons they were withdrawn so early in the first place.

And you'd need a separate engine & generator set to power the air con.

[John Besley]

6 hours ago, billy_anorak59 said:

I did a similar trick, but came at it from a 'what a waste to scrap all those 10 year old Warships' point of view - cut them in half, and make a sort of HST MK1 at either end of a rake. Got as far as this, but couldn't resolve the body profile mis-match between a 42 and a Mk1....totally useless exercise of course!

 

 

This more like it... Didn't some one do a simaler drawing of an LNER set in numerous livery through the years including body upgrades.... Lost in the Great Web Crash no doubt

 

Must admit I'd love to see some convincing ones done - run at an exhibition that would annoy some people -but be huge fun 😊

[BernardTPM]

4 hours ago, rodent279 said:

And you'd need a separate engine & generator set to power the air con.

'Zulu' was fitted with some equipment for ETH. It would be technical feassible to add a small alternator connected to one of the main diesel engines for auxiliary power (as opposed to the much larger and heavier generator for traction purposes) if rebuilding along the lines suggested by billy.

[Flying Pig]

On 13/09/2022 at 16:54, JimC said:

And here's the odd little Dean O-4-4 No 34, updated from back tank to pannier tank with a new boiler.

 

I'm not feeling very inspired at the moment about your other missing types. The larger tank engines would be problematic since there would be issues of visibility with the length of boiler, and water capacity due to the greater diameter of the boiler reducing space for tanks.

 

 

For some reason that looks like it has slip eccentric valve gear and a meths burner in the firebox.

[The Johnster]

10 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Simpler to replace one cab with a guard's compartment to make a single-ended design, then place one each end of a rake

 

There would have been a good bit of faff to fit a pullman gangway connection for the guard to access the train.  It would have looked quite odd stylistically as well, with the Warships having a very different body profile (all right, so did most diesel locomotives) to the mk1s, and being much taller as well.

 

As to the idea of refurbishing Blue Pullmans for normal express work, I think they'd have been a bit underpowered unless more grunty engines could have been fitted into the power cars, and there wasn't much spare space for that.  2khp for a 6- or 8-car train at 90-100mph is ok, as the Blue Pullmans proved, but to do the work of, for example because I'm familiar with them, an early 1970s Swansea or Bristol to Paddington train, 10 coaches with eth and airco with a 47, 2khp is not enough.  I'd suggest something like 1,400hp per power car.

 

I base this on an excursion I worked in the summer of 1974, which we travelled up on the cushions in order to relieve the train at Swindon, and worked through to Barry Island, Mystex from Hastings with 2x 6H Hastings DEMUs, 12 coaches and 2000hp available.  For some reason we were routed via Box and Dr. Day's, and the sets, one 6H and one 6B, gave a pretty good account of themselves all things considered, thrashing up to over 80mph in several places, but not equalling the '10 airco'n'a 47' timings.  They made an awful racket and the ride was, um, interesting; great fun though, shame to take the Saturday rest day overtime, not that I ever gave any of it back...

[PhilJ W]

The BP's would have to have new bogies at least to deal with the appalling ride.