Imaginary Locomotives

[melmerby]

There is a paperback book around at the moment dealing with all the various prototype locos that have appeared over the years (Mainly but not exclusively UK)

I'm not sure if it is a soft cover version of R.M. Tufnell's volume on the subject.

 

Plenty of inspiration for imaginary developments.

 

Keith

[Northmoor]

I'm afraid that's no good. The G7 boiler fitted to the 3F rebuilds of the Johnson standard goods engines was an altogether larger affair than the G5 1/2 boiler of the reboilered 2441 Class tank engines and their younger brothers the LMS standard 3F tank engines. Most of the tender engines had 5'3" diameter driving wheels, though some (ex 1142 and 1698 Classes) had 4'11" drivers; the tank engines had 4'7". Frames are different. Cylinders and motion might be the same.

I read somewhere that 47564 at the Midland Railway, Butterley - which is just a boiler, wheels and frames - has not been restored in preservation because there is a long term plan to rebuild the parts as a replica of something else.  Not such a daft idea as there are plenty of Jinties in preservation.  But from what you've said here, the options are quite limited.

[Compound2632]

I read somewhere that 47564 at the Midland Railway, Butterley - which is just a boiler, wheels and frames - has not been restored in preservation because there is a long term plan to rebuild the parts as a replica of something else.  Not such a daft idea as there are plenty of Jinties in preservation.  But from what you've said here, the options are quite limited.

 

Maybe one of the original Midland 2441 Class engines, alas as rebuilt with Belpaire boiler. There are significant differences in the tanks (especially if one went for one of the condensing engines), bunker, and cab - the parts they haven't got. When you say frames and wheels, does that include cylinders and motion? (I see it has no siderods; the Butterley site says 'for spares'  though some commentor on national-preservation.com mentions the 3F 0-6-0 idea which as we've seen is a no-go!)

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I read somewhere that 47564 at the Midland Railway, Butterley - which is just a boiler, wheels and frames - has not been restored in preservation because there is a long term plan to rebuild the parts as a replica of something else.  Not such a daft idea as there are plenty of Jinties in preservation.  But from what you've said here, the options are quite limited.

 Depends how daring those inpossession want to be. A lookee-likee replica of one of Johnson's 1875 inside frame 4'11" 0-6-0s (2F) with a new build round top boiler would be quite possible. That was the format setting loco for the caravan of MR 3F and MR/LMS 4F's that followed, and which Derby engineers took elsewhere with outcomes such as the Wainwright C, Maunsell Q and improbable as it may seem, the Bulleid Q1.

[Compound2632]

 Depends how daring those inpossession want to be. A lookee-likee replica of one of Johnson's 1875 inside frame 4'11" 0-6-0s (2F) with a new build round top boiler would be quite possible. That was the format setting loco for the caravan of MR 3F and MR/LMS 4F's that followed, and which Derby engineers took elsewhere with outcomes such as the Wainwright C, Maunsell Q and improbable as it may seem, the Bulleid Q1.

 

That would be nice but probably simpler to start from scratch. (Like many a 4mm scale RTR conversion project...)

[Corbs]

Had a vision of this the other day, 56xx front with a 42xx-ish back (inheriting the wheel spacing on the rear two axles and the pivoting coupling rods/side play to enable it to go around corners)

 

 

[The Johnster]

Condensing version?  (all right, I know it's a water column in the background).

 

Perhaps for heavy cross London freight traffic on the widened lines.

[LNWR18901910]

Had a vision of this the other day, 56xx front with a 42xx-ish back (inheriting the wheel spacing on the rear two axles and the pivoting coupling rods/side play to enable it to go around corners)

 

gwr-080t-1.jpg

Very clever! I wonder if a Pannier Tank version could be made.

[melmerby]

Had a vision of this the other day, 56xx front with a 42xx-ish back (inheriting the wheel spacing on the rear two axles and the pivoting coupling rods/side play to enable it to go around corners)

 

gwr-080t-1.jpg

Maybe close the driving wheels up and put in a trailing truck, more like this:

https://orig00.deviantart.net/423c/f/2017/041/5/b/port_talbot_railway_cooke_0_8_2t_by_vincentberkan-dayjoao.jpg

 

Keith

[The Johnster]

I seem to remember seeing a general outline drawing of an 0-8-0 version of the 94xx, presumably for South Wales local transfer work.  My thought is that it might have been a bit too much locomotive for that particular boiler.

[Corbs]

Maybe close the driving wheels up and put in a trailing truck, more like this:

https://orig00.deviantart.net/423c/f/2017/041/5/b/port_talbot_railway_cooke_0_8_2t_by_vincentberkan-dayjoao.jpg

 

Keith

Might need to stretch it otherwise I don't think the motion would fit!

[JimC]

I seem to remember seeing a general outline drawing of an 0-8-0 version of the 94xx,

The only one I can recall seeing was in RCTS, where there's a pre WW1 sketch of an 0-8-0T based on 4400 components (that's the earlier 4ft1in wheel version of the small Prairie). Its shown with a very light axle loading, 12 tons per axle.

Its also got a very short wheelbase, slightly shorter than a 5700 0-6-0PT. It doesn't look especially practical, a conclusion one presumes Churchward also reached. I might try a sketch later.

[Corbs]

The only one I can recall seeing was in RCTS, where there's a pre WW1 sketch of an 0-8-0T based on 4400 components (that's the earlier 4ft1in wheel version of the small Prairie). Its shown with a very light axle loading, 12 tons per axle.

Its also got a very short wheelbase, slightly shorter than a 5700 0-6-0PT. It doesn't look especially practical, a conclusion one presumes Churchward also reached. I might try a sketch later.

Do you remember if it was inside or outside cylinder?

[papagolfjuliet]

I suppose the best known models of 'imaginary' locomotives are the pretty little Madder Valley standard gauge Manx Peacock and Ffestiniog England, and I'm bound to say that I have always wished that somebody would do a range John Ahern-themed loco kits. Oh, for a 3D printer of my own.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Condensing version?  ...Perhaps for heavy cross London freight traffic on the widened lines.

 Messrs Sturrock and Ivatt both essayed eight-coupled condensing tank locos to run on the Met widened lines, and they were too long overall and in the wheelbase, and too heavy, for the Metropolitan to be content to accept them. Using steam the freight job finished up allocated to the J50, nominally 57-58 tons,  16'3 wb 0-6-0T.

 

Mr Sturrock's outside cylinder Avonside 0-8-0T of 1866 looks well imaginary with huge side tank and bunkers making it near cuboid, with only a sizeable chimney, dome and safety valve bonnet rising above. No cab upperworks whatsoever, not even a spectacle plate! There's a good photo of no 472 on page 113 of 'Top Shed',  and every time I look at this the thought of 'one day must make a model' pops into mind. It's 'brutiful' in my eyes.

 

[JimC]

Do you remember if it was inside or outside cylinder?

 

Outside. Here's a quick shot at it. I haven't even attempted to guess the brakes: they might have had to put them on six wheels only. Judging by the sketch in RCTS the proposal was abandoned at a very early stage, if indeed it was ever any more than "This is why this won't work".

 

Edited April 13, 2018 by JimC

[The Johnster]

The one I was talking about had a 94xx type boiler and a more even wheel spacing; IIRC it had inside cylinders which I assumed drove the second axle. The wheels were 4'7" diameter.

[melmerby]

The one I was talking about had a 94xx type boiler and a more even wheel spacing; IIRC it had inside cylinders which I assumed drove the second axle. The wheels were 4'7" diameter.

There was a 1945 proposal for a 2-6-0PT with outside cylinders but no more powerful than a 57XX.

In c1905 there was a proposed 4-4-4T version of the 2221.

 

Keith

[rockershovel]

I suppose the best known models of 'imaginary' locomotives are the pretty little Madder Valley standard gauge Manx Peacock and Ffestiniog England, and I'm bound to say that I have always wished that somebody would do a range John Ahern-themed loco kits. Oh, for a 3D printer of my own.

The “standard gauge Manx Peacock” shouldn’t be too much of a stretch, 4-4-0T Beyer Peacocks enjoyed a short-lived popularity in U.K. and 2-4-0s complete with outside framed front bogies were exported to 3’6” gauge lines in Scandinavia and Japan. There’s a plastic kit of one, probably long discontinued, which featured in a thread on here a while ago

[Northroader]

There was an equivalent standard gauge design to the I.o.M 2-4-0T, with inside cylinders and leading wheel bearings. They were built new for the Isle of Wight Railway, the IOW Central had some, and a few lasted to after the SR took over. Very pretty little engines. I think one or two more were around as well.

[JimC]

The one I was talking about had a 94xx type boiler and a more even wheel spacing; IIRC it had inside cylinders which I assumed drove the second axle. The wheels were 4'7" diameter.

I haven't seen that one. It does sound like an alternative to the 94s as a replacement for Welsh 0-6-2s and heavy shunting work. It would have plenty of brake power and lower axle load.

 

I just had a very quick play and it seems hard to get it to work unless upgraded to the longer Std 2 boiler or else something new. Getting wheels to fit around the firebox is tricky.

Edited April 14, 2018 by JimC

[The Johnster]

As you say, lighter on the axle than a 94xx but possibly a bit too light footed as as result, and the extra braking power would be of no use if all that happened is that the wheels picked up and slid.  It really needs 56xx cylinders and boiler, which would negate the axle load advantage.  South Wales was mostly worked by 'red' route restricted engines anyway; it wasn't until you got into the Brecon Beacons that axle loads became an issue.  This is probably why it was never built; the existing 56xx were doing fine and the 94xx was the final stage of the constituent engine replacement programme.

 

An interesting might have been though.  Not that mad considering the rebuilt Rhymney outside framed 0-6-2 panniers of the 1920s...

[Satan's Goldfish]

Have we already covered big LNER Locos?.... probably.

 

However, I've had a go at creating an express/fast goods 4-8-2 (which I'm calling a P3 because I don't know how LNER classifications work). Starting with a standard A3 (top), I've used the A3 fire box and boiler, and a slightly stretched smoke box with a double chimney on a 4-8-2 chassis. The drivers are somewhere around 5'8" to 6', so it won't quite go as fast as a bigger wheeled pacific, but what was the average ECML required speed anyway? The slightly shorter fixed wheel base than a P2 should be (marginally) less damaging to track, but still good at getting power to the rails. Overall length looks to be roughly the same as the W1.

 

Being the LNER, there's then a Streamlined version which has had an A4 nose grafted onto it, but the boiler still exposed like the P2s were.

 

Finally for fun, I used those parts to Streamline a standard A3 with an A4 cab and A4 style nose. The smoke box would need major alterations for Doncaster to have done that.

 

[Hroth]

The LNER denoted wheel arrangements using a letter.  0-6-0 locos (tank or tender) were J type, 2-6-2s were V type.  4-6-2 was A type and 2-8-2 was P type.  I don't know if they even hypothetically assigned a letter to the 4-8-2 arrangement.

[TheQ]

There was a 1945 proposal for a 2-6-0PT with outside cylinders but no more powerful than a 57XX.

In c1905 there was a proposed 4-4-4T version of the 2221.

 

Keith

GWR got effectively that when they reboilered the two  EX-MSWJR 4-4-4 locos in 1924, http://roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/294/4l5-mswjr-4-4-4t-gwr-rebuild/

They were never very good as they had too much weight on the bogies not enough on the driving wheels..