Imaginary Locomotives

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

IMHO the Coronation is much closer to a Princess than a King is to a Castle, with little other than colour scheme the same.

Dimensionally the two have much in common, unlike a King and a Castle.

 

Differently dimensioned frame and wheelbase, different cylinder disposition, different valve gear, valve chest and steam pipe arrangement, different grate, boiler shell, tubing and superheater design. That's all the major pieces that go to make up a steam loco. It is an all new design, as different from a Princess as the the King was from a Castle. Why is this so difficult to accept?

[TheQ]

Here's another.... can't quite think what the 'back-story' to this one would be (some have suggested the Highland Railway link), but I do think the result looks very elegant! The LBSCR B6 4-6-0:

 

The Highland Railway was  almost always an outside cylinder railway, and didn't have a front bogie like that.

However Stroudley introduced the inside Cylinder Lochgorm 0-6-0 Tanks, (effectively the prototype Terrier), I'm guessing that's an attempt at a Stroudley 4-6-0, Not following Stroudley when he left the HR to the LBSCR, I've no idea if that is true.

Edited January 15, 2019 by TheQ

[melmerby]

Differently dimensioned frame and wheelbase, different cylinder disposition, different valve gear, valve chest and steam pipe arrangement, different grate, boiler shell, tubing and superheater design. That's all the major pieces that go to make up a steam loco. It is an all new design, as different from a Princess as the the King was from a Castle. Why is this so difficult to accept?

Ok you know best.

 

Keith

[The Johnster]

What if the GWR's experiments with F.G. Wright's large boiler fitted to a Badminton Class loco, 3297 "Earl Cawdor" had been successful? Might the same idea have been applied on a larger scale to a Saint ? I'm sure people can find lots of reasons why not, but this is offered as a bit of fun, so see below for the drawing of a large parallel boiler Saint:

 

There is a sort of GER look to this, and I am reminded that Holden worked at Swindon before he took the big seat at Stratford.  

[melmerby]

Differently dimensioned frame and wheelbase, different cylinder disposition, different valve gear, valve chest and steam pipe arrangement, different grate, boiler shell, tubing and superheater design. That's all the major pieces that go to make up a steam loco. It is an all new design, as different from a Princess as the the King was from a Castle. Why is this so difficult to accept?

I'll set out the reasoning why I made my comments.

Gleaned from many books over the years

The Princess was designed when there was a need to provide engines suitable for the long journey to the north with the heaviest expresses.

The King which Stanier was familiar with from his time at Swindon would be powerful enough but the firebox would be a limiting factor.

A new wide firebox design was produced but keeping some major dimensions & features from the King.

The cylinders were raised (for clearance purposes?) but kept their relative position on the frames.

The resulting loco was good but not the best that could be derived from the package.

 

When more locomotives were required Stanier reviews the good and bad points of the Princess

That long coupled wheelbase designed for a long boiler 4-6-0 had to go as it was of no benefit. (probably more of a hindrance?)

The GWR's dogmatic cylinder positioning and steam passage layout again provide no benefit and could be improved, by moving the cylinders forward, although a marginal increase of quarter inch diameter in size was made, the stroke remained the same.

The loco would also benefit from greater heating surfaces.

The boiler was obvious generally of a sound design as was the firebox but improvements could be made.

The boiler barrel length, tube plate distance and front ring dimensions were retained but more tube heating surface was provided.

The firebox was also improved with more heating surface, the dimensional increases of firebox and boiler are not dramatic as (AFAIK) the firebox length & height stays the same but the width is increased somewhat and provides worthwhile gains in steam raising performance. The overall increase of heating surface was in the order of 15%

Change in wheel size - No idea why - Although you explained earlier that was Riddles doing!

 

To me these changes suggested development of an existing design rather than a brand new clean sheet job, forgetting what had gone before.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

 

Edited to make clearer my observations!

Edited January 15, 2019 by melmerby

[Satan's Goldfish]

Slight mods to turn my LMS Mikado into a Mallet... no reason other than a little boredom. No I don't know what it could be used for, I still think the Mikado looks much better (and if I ever get hold of a cheap old 8f chassis i'll try and build it )

 

 

Edit: just realised why I don't like it; the throw over at the front of that is going to be ridiculous!

Edited January 18, 2019 by Satan's Goldfish

[luis18artist]

Well apparently i founded something about that he Caledonian Railway was planning to built a 4-6-2 version of their Cardean Class engines

[Clock O' The North]

Makes me think think of a class of Australian loco though it will take me a while to work out which so hopefully someone with more knowledge will also see that and tell you all which one

Could the Victorian Railways DD Class or the New South Wales 30 Class.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Slight mods to turn my LMS Mikado into a Mallet... no reason other than a little boredom. No I don't know what it could be used for, I still think the Mikado looks much better (and if I ever get hold of a cheap old 8f chassis i'll try and build it )

 

LMS Mallet.jpg

 

Edit: just realised why I don't like it; the throw over at the front of that is going to be ridiculous!

 

Agree that the Mallet does not work. But that Mikado would be just the thing for parcels work over Shap and Beattock.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Agree that the Mallet does not work. But that Mikado would be just the thing for parcels work over Shap and Beattock.

All I need is a redundant 8f chassis+cylinders if anyone is disposing....

[Compound2632]

The Highland Railway was  almost always an outside cylinder railway, and didn't have a front bogie like that.

However Stroudley introduced the inside Cylinder Lochgorm 0-6-0 Tanks, (effectively the prototype Terrier), I'm guessing that's an attempt at a Stroudley 4-6-0, Not following Stroudley when he left the HR to the LBSCR, I've no idea if that is true.

 

It's a lengthened version of Billington's B4 4-4-0s of the turn of the century. If anything, it puts me in mind of the proportions of Manson's 381 Class 4-6-0s for the 'Sou West, though those had outside cylinders and Belpaire boiler.

[melmerby]

Slight mods to turn my LMS Mikado into a Mallet... no reason other than a little boredom. No I don't know what it could be used for, I still think the Mikado looks much better (and if I ever get hold of a cheap old 8f chassis i'll try and build it )

 

LMS Mallet.jpg

 

Edit: just realised why I don't like it; the throw over at the front of that is going to be ridiculous!

I think a longer tender would improve the appearance somewhat.

 

keith.

[The Johnster]

I think a longer tender would improve the appearance somewhat.

 

keith.

 

Does this have 4 or 8 cylinders?  If you are having 4 cylinders, 2 on each driven set, there should be room to move the coupled wheelbases forward a little and get the trailing driven axle further away from the ashpan, and inserting a carrying pony under the cab.  This will improve the riding.  

 

8 cylinders, 4 on each driven set, will increase the demand for steam from the boiler, and given that the Coronations were fairly close to the limit of what could be demanded of a human fireman, a larger tender might be needed along with oil firing or mechanical stoking to keep up with the boiler's need to feed all those cylinders.  Water capacity in the tender is less of an issue in the UK than it is in the US (where the big Malletts roamed free and unfettered) because of the provision of water troughs except on the Southern (which consequently had some of the biggest tenders in the country).

 

So if there is need for a bigger tender, it probably does not need to be very much bigger than the biggest LMS tenders already existing.  I agree it would improve the look but the loco's performance and ability to do it's work cheaply and efficiently is more important than how it looks.

Edited January 18, 2019 by The Johnster

[Satan's Goldfish]

I dont think I'm going to play with that idea. As lovely as making it a 2-6-6-2 would be and giving it a bogie tender, the length then starts getting unfeasibly long to get a realistic firebox/boiler/smoke box onto it and have it fit turntables. 2-4-4-2 would be nice but I've not found any small enough drivers with the connecting rod on the second wheel back. The Lima small prairie did that I used for the GWR 2-4-6-0 tender and 2-4-6-2 tank, but they're a bit small in my mind for this and I like to use items that mean it could be modelled.

 

If it can fit under an existing boiler design too then that's a bonus. The LMS Mallet unfortunately has the boiler and firebox slightly stretched. With hindsight it may have been better to use the standard boiler and have just some extra wheel base length at the front.

[Flying Pig]

The main problem with the Mallet is that the lower part of the firebox and most of the ashpan are missing, which would affect the steaming somewhat. If you want to put drivers of any size at the back you're going to need a complete rethink of firebox design.

[rodent279]

Slight mods to turn my LMS Mikado into a Mallet... no reason other than a little boredom. No I don't know what it could be used for, I still think the Mikado looks much better (and if I ever get hold of a cheap old 8f chassis i'll try and build it )

 

LMS Mallet.jpg

 

Edit: just realised why I don't like it; the throw over at the front of that is going to be ridiculous!

The 2-8-2 looks convincing, the Mallet doesn't quite. I'd give the 2-8-2 5' 8" or 6" wheels. I'd also give it Wagner smoke deflectors, I reckon that would look good on a Duchess.

Edited January 19, 2019 by rodent279

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... that Mikado would be just the thing for parcels work over Shap and Beattock.

 

The mikado is a type that never got a full development and operational try out in the UK. Would be better with bigger wheels, as the 40,000lb theoretical starting TE of the Duchess is already more than adequate for UK train loads. Using the LMS standard 5'6" or even better 6' diameter wheels  - there's room in the frame length - should result in a very effective 2-8-2 with the side effect of looking very handsome too. (Which effectiveness the P2 build(s) underway should demonstrate.)

 

I still believe that Riddles missed a trick on the Britannia/9F. Had he built the 300 as large wheel 2-8-2s I am pretty sure this would have been an even greater success than the 9F, combining the best of both classes for a fast mixed traffic machine effective on any main line turn.

[Northmoor]

I still believe that Riddles missed a trick on the Britannia/9F. Had he built the 300 as large wheel 2-8-2s I am pretty sure this would have been an even greater success than the 9F, combining the best of both classes for a fast mixed traffic machine effective on any main line turn.

It's what I still think one of the un-restored ex-Barry 9Fs should be re-built as.  It would overcome the NR restriction on flange-less driving wheels, would still be powerful enough to haul an economical length main line excursion and fast enough to keep itself out of trouble (yes, I know 9Fs were clocked at 90+ on the GWML, but it wasn't something the authorities wanted to encourage even then).

[Catkins]

It's what I still think one of the un-restored ex-Barry 9Fs should be re-built as.  It would overcome the NR restriction on flange-less driving wheels, would still be powerful enough to haul an economical length main line excursion and fast enough to keep itself out of trouble (yes, I know 9Fs were clocked at 90+ on the GWML, but it wasn't something the authorities wanted to encourage even then).

And the "rebuild" would have the advantage of being able to prototypically include any advances in steam loco efficiencies and engineering.

[Satan's Goldfish]

It's what I still think one of the un-restored ex-Barry 9Fs should be re-built as. It would overcome the NR restriction on flange-less driving wheels, would still be powerful enough to haul an economical length main line excursion and fast enough to keep itself out of trouble (yes, I know 9Fs were clocked at 90+ on the GWML, but it wasn't something the authorities wanted to encourage even then).

Page 19.... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/14790-imaginary-locomotives/?p=1595452

 

 

Edit: an engine with a lot of potential, looks like it would have been a good all-round beast. But for some reason I still prefer the look of the LMS version, even with the smaller drivers... maybe I should try putting P2 chassis under it?...

Edited January 19, 2019 by Satan's Goldfish

[Niels]

All british trailing truck  tender engines were pure waste of adhesion.

The USAF S160 proved that wide fireboxes could fit UK loading gate sitting over 4 feet 8 drivers.

9Fs upped that to 5 feet drivers and their boilers were the most effective of the big boilers tested by Rugby and Ells moving cirkus.

If two cylinder five feet drivers could do 90 mph ocassionally three cylindered could do it every day.

To fit 9Fs for mainline  they can be rebuilt.

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Edited January 20, 2019 by Niels

[melmerby]

All british trailing truck  tender engines were pure waste of adhesion.

The USAF S160 proved that wide fireboxes could fit UK loading gate sitting over 4 feet 8 drivers.

9Fs upped that to 5 feet drivers and their boilers were the most effective of the big boilers tested by Rugby and Ells moving cirkus.

If two cylinder five feet drivers could do 90 mph ocassionally three cylindered could do it every day

Somebody worked out the RPM of the driving wheels at the claimed 90+mph 9F and it turned out to be the same as Mallard at 126mph

Not recommended.

 

Keith

[Satan's Goldfish]

Mikado'd a Coronation and a Brit with a P2 front pony and drivers.

 

Despite the green wheels, visually i still think it sits better on the Coronation.

 

 

Very quick and rough, but i've just spotted that the P2 drives the second wheel, so there may be scope to make them 2-4-4-2 Mallets...

[rodent279]

Mikado'd a Coronation and a Brit with a P2 front pony and drivers.

 

Despite the green wheels, visually i still think it sits better on the Coronation.

 

Mikados.jpg

 

Very quick and rough, but i've just spotted that the P2 drives the second wheel, so there may be scope to make them 2-4-4-2 Mallets...

The Brit looks particularly convincing. Really got a bit of a DR rekolok look about it. Wagner deflectors would set it off nicely. Edited January 19, 2019 by rodent279

[RLBH]

Very quick and rough, but i've just spotted that the P2 drives the second wheel, so there may be scope to make them 2-4-4-2 Mallets...

Perhaps in an effort to ease them around the tight corners north of Edinburgh? Four 18¼" cylinders would be about right for such a machine.