Imaginary Locomotives

[scots region]

I've been think of having a go at doing an LMSR Castle, no not the highland one, but the apocryphal one that the LMSR was supposedly trying to buy off the GWR. This got me thinking, what if the rail companies could sell designs to each other, what would that end up producing?  

[Northmoor]

I've been think of having a go at doing an LMSR Castle, no not the highland one, but the apocryphal one that the LMSR was supposedly trying to buy off the GWR. This got me thinking, what if the rail companies could sell designs to each other, what would that end up producing?  

I replied on a similar thread about this a while ago - it's one of the interesting "What if?" scenarios:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/124623-imaginary-railways/page-3&do=findComment&comment=2839058

[The Johnster]

 It is striking that all the maxima which are credible for steam locos in Germany, UK and US, are in the same 125mph/200kph zone. The direct reciprocating drive causes all sorts of resonances, and if one falls around 4Hz, the human jelly bags on the footplate will be wobbling along in sympathy, causing among other significant events vision disturbance. I have experienced this in a flight simulator, and it is acutely disturbing. (The steam loco that could do more would be a turbine - with a suitable gear ratio.)

 

 Fake news. Along with the claim for CoT. ( Look at the discontinuity in the curve when Rous-Marten's data is plotted.)

 

The fact that these speeds were recorded and reported does not validate the claims.  Whatever really happened on 2906, everybody involved must have had a serious scare!  All that can be stated with any confidence is that high speeds were achieved on both occasions, enough for CoT's driver to make a full brake application to avoid running down P.W. staff who had not cleared the line because the train was approaching them at a much higher speed than they were accustomed to, and that would have been around the 80mph mark!  But I suspect the 125mph/200kph level is about the practical limit for a Stephensonian reciprocating steam locomotive, from which the inference can be drawn that 100mph timings with regular service loads are about the maximum it is reasonable to expect.  The Milwaukee Road achieved this, as did the NYC with the Niagaras, and with a 1.000 ton trailing load!

 

Your point about resonance is valid and very interesting; few of those who study such events take it into account, and they should!!!

Edited January 12, 2019 by The Johnster

[john new]

I've been think of having a go at doing an LMSR Castle, no not the highland one, but the apocryphal one that the LMSR was supposedly trying to buy off the GWR. This got me thinking, what if the rail companies could sell designs to each other, what would that end up producing?  

Wouldn't it just look like a lot like the maroon liveried Hornby Hogwarts Castle but with LMS on the tender instead?

[melmerby]

Wouldn't it just look like a lot like the maroon liveried Hornby Hogwarts Castle but with LMS on the tender instead?

Probably have a Fowler style tender, rather than a GWR one.

 

Keith

[rockershovel]

RTK GPS is quite capable of achieving real-time accuracies within a few mm. It would need to be an installation tailored to the purpose, because a static “differential correction” station is required and the range is limited, but there is nothing that couldn’t be done by a number of companies specialising in such things.

 

Don’t forget also that our motorways are festooned with cameras that produce more-or-less instantaneous speed recordings which are routinely used as evidence in courts of law. They can also register identification numbers, take photographs and various other functions.

 

Given a suitable budget, a location, a schedule and a telephone, it would be quite a straightforward matter to arrange a record run timed to high accuracy and capable of withstanding any checking.

[bimble]

I doubt that GPS, which is I believe only accurate to about 2 metres at best, could give more than a fairly accurate average speed. 

 

not quite true, whilst the GPS on your phone might only be good to a few meters, but there are real-time GPS receivers that can get a much higher accuracy. As a surveyor we normally expect our fixes to be within a couple of cm. Even higher presicion GPS fixes can be done, but they require being in a stationary position for longer to record an average fix over time.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I've been think of having a go at doing an LMSR Castle, no not the highland one, but the apocryphal one that the LMSR was supposedly trying to buy off the GWR. This got me thinking, what if the rail companies could sell designs to each other, what would that end up producing?  

Well they did, in a way.

Marsh leaves Doncaster for Brighton with the Ivatt Atlantic drawings, and there we go, the LBSCR has the best express loco seen to that date sarf of the river.

Stanier goes from Swindon to the LMSR, and we all get to see how inadvisable it is to use a King as the basis of a pacific.

Bulleid transfers from Doncaster to the Southern, and yet again there appear the best express locos ever seen up to that date sarf of the river. (And the extent to which his previous boss kept him on the straight and narrow is incidentally revealed.)

[The Johnster]

There is an argument that it was inadvisable to use a King as a basis for a King; a Castle with 6'3" driving wheels and King cylinders might have been better for the heaviest trains, and able to run over normal red routes.  Another 'what if'.  

[Niels]

There is an argument that it was inadvisable to use a King as a basis for a King; a Castle with 6'3" driving wheels and King cylinders might have been better for the heaviest trains, and able to run over normal red routes.  Another 'what if'.  

The LNER B16 proved that wheels can be 5 feet 8 inches on three-cylindered  locomotives and run as fast as nessecary in UK.

The BR standards could all have had five feet drivers .

Three cylinders for the selected few asked to run more than 60-70mph regularly.

A GWR 4-8-0 on five feet wheels would have been usefull and looked better than a great king-bear.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Niels

[rockershovel]

I replied on a similar thread about this a while ago - it's one of the interesting "What if?" scenarios:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/124623-imaginary-railways/page-3&do=findComment&comment=2839058

.... BR Standards?

[melmerby]

not quite true, whilst the GPS on your phone might only be good to a few meters, but there are real-time GPS receivers that can get a much higher accuracy. As a surveyor we normally expect our fixes to be within a couple of cm. Even higher presicion GPS fixes can be done, but they require being in a stationary position for longer to record an average fix over time.

https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/performance/accuracy/

 

Keith

Edited January 13, 2019 by melmerby

[scots region]

Wouldn't it just look like a lot like the maroon liveried Hornby Hogwarts Castle but with LMS on the tender instead?

 

The chimney would be replaced with a black one, the safety valve would be swapped for a dome, the valves themselves would end up on the firebox, the cab might have to have to come down half a mill, but there's some dispute and as for the tender I was thinking of putting one of the larger 4000 gal ones behind it. 

[melmerby]

Stanier goes from Swindon to the LMSR, and we all get to see how inadvisable it is to use a King as the basis of a pacific.

 

What was wrong with the Princesses?

Apart from being overlong, they did all they were designed to do.

When Stanier decided to build an updated version, he tidied the design up with a shorter wheelbase and increased the driving wheel size, leading to the Coronations.

 

Keith

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

That's a myth produced for general public consumption that Stanier 'tidied up' the Princess design in developing the bigguns. The biggun was an all new design from scratch; other than wheel arrangement, nothing significant in common. (Compare to Doncaster, where for example the final boiler on the A4 could be used on locos built as Gresley A1 uprated to A3.)

 

There would not have been such an all new design LMS pacific had the Princess been the 'full solution' from the word go. Something better that didn't have its outside cylinders persistently working loose among other troubles was required, and in this Tom Coleman succeeded very well.

[Niels]

What was wrong with the Princesses?

Apart from being overlong, they did all they were designed to do.

When Stanier decided to build an updated version, he tidied the design up with a shorter wheelbase and increased the driving wheel size, leading to the Coronations.

 

Keith

Coronations were constructed while Stanier made Indian Pacifics safe.The wheel enlargement was due to Riddles and a unnessecary retrograde step according to him self.

[rockershovel]

That's a myth produced for general public consumption that Stanier 'tidied up' the Princess design in developing the bigguns. The biggun was an all new design from scratch; other than wheel arrangement, nothing significant in common. (Compare to Doncaster, where for example the final boiler on the A4 could be used on locos built as Gresley A1 uprated to A3.)

 

There would not have been such an all new design LMS pacific had the Princess been the 'full solution' from the word go. Something better that didn't have its outside cylinders persistently working loose among other troubles was required, and in this Tom Coleman succeeded very well.

I seem to remember that the well known authority on the matter, Sir Topham Hatt, was of the opinion that “these big engines are always giving trouble”

[melmerby]

The biggun was an all new design from scratch; other than wheel arrangement, nothing significant in common. (

 

IMHO the Coronation is much closer to a Princess than a King is to a Castle, with little other than colour scheme the same.

Dimensionally the two have much in common, unlike a King and a Castle

 

Keith

[talisman56]

I seem to remember that the well known authority on the matter, Sir Topham Hatt, was of the opinion that “these big engines are always giving trouble”

 

...and a certain little one didn't?

[Vanguard 5374]

A quick model I have whipped up for 009, using the Life-Like 0-6-0ST chassis. Based around the Hunslet locomotives used on the Kowie Railway, along with the ones used on the 4ft gauge Padarn Railway.

[Rasendyll]

What if the GWR's experiments with F.G. Wright's large boiler fitted to a Badminton Class loco, 3297 "Earl Cawdor" had been successful? Might the same idea have been applied on a larger scale to a Saint ? I'm sure people can find lots of reasons why not, but this is offered as a bit of fun, so see below for the drawing of a large parallel boiler Saint:

[WD0-6-0]

Makes me think think of a class of australian loco though it will take me a while to work out which so hopefully someone with more knowledge will also see that and tell you all which one

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Makes me think think of a class of australian loco though it will take me a while to work out which so hopefully someone with more knowledge will also see that and tell you all which one

 

NSWR C36?

 

[Rasendyll]

Here's another.... can't quite think what the 'back-story' to this one would be (some have suggested the Highland Railway link), but I do think the result looks very elegant! The LBSCR B6 4-6-0:

 

[WD0-6-0]

NSWR C36?

 

196507.jpg

That's not the one I was thinking of but it looks even more alike than the one I was thinking of