Imaginary Locomotives

[richard i]

I like the somewhat laconic line at the bottom "I am not aware of any models"

I have certainly seen one at the York show.

 

The Baltic A1 could be done as an un streamlined W1 post rebuilding. There was no engineering reason it had to be given a cods mouth.

[BlueLightning]

Can I ask how the bogie is attached under the cab on the Gresley A1 as I am interested in doing that myself.

 

To attach the new bogie to the back I removed a section of the plastic lower chassis, and removed the pillar that the rear wheels had been attached too. I the drilled a new screw hole for the bogie and used the screw that had held it onto its previous chassis. I have attached a picture below of the underside.

 

I hope this helps,

 

Gary

 

[Budgie]

I have certainly seen one at the York show.

 

The Baltic A1 could be done as an un streamlined W1 post rebuilding. There was no engineering reason it had to be given a cods mouth.

 

Wasn't the W1 a 4-6-2-2 rather than a 4-6-4, with a Cartazzi truck and a separate Bissell truck under the firebox/cab?

[BernardTPM]

Wasn't the W1 a 4-6-2-2 rather than a 4-6-4, with a Cartazzi truck and a separate Bissell truck under the firebox/cab?

No, because under the Whyte notation 4-6-2-2 would imply that there were two sets of driving wheels, six coupled and a separate pair of drivers behind them, then the trailing wheels.

Edited November 18, 2016 by BernardTPM

[BernardTPM]

I've seen it written like that too and I know the two axles can swing independently of each other, but that has no relevance to proper Whyte notation. It only distinguishes between leading, driving and trailing wheels. Both those axles are trailing so they are counted together. It doesn't imply anything as to whether they are rigid, radial, bogie, pony or combination thereof.

[Steve K]

Maybe 4-6-(2+2) would remove ambiguity. Has anyone got Mr Whyte's email address?

[Zero Gravitas]

I've seen it written like that too and I know the two axles can swing independently of each other, but that has no relevance to proper Whyte notation. It only distinguishes between leading, driving and trailing wheels. Both those axles are trailing so they are counted together. It doesn't imply anything as to whether they are rigid, radial, bogie, pony or combination thereof.

Yes... but by the logic you are using there, that would make a "Big Boy" a 4-16-4...

[griffgriff]

Or would it be a 4-6-A-1-4?

 

[BernardTPM]

Yes... but by the logic you are using there, that would make a "Big Boy" a 4-16-4...

Not at all - driving wheels are regarded as separate blocks*, unlike the leading and trailing wheels. Did you even look at Whyte's list? It's not my logic, it's his!

 

* this is why by Whyte's notation a 4-6-2-2 would have two sets of powered wheels, the six coupled and the single driver pair behind it, which is clearly not the case with the W1.  Given the system was devised by an American it covers (most) articulated locomotives; also 'Duplex' locos where driving wheels are in separate but non-articulated groups.

Edited November 20, 2016 by BernardTPM

[relaxinghobby]

The long boiler loco in post No. 615 has now been grotted up. As a none working loco it's job is to just sit in the dump siding, mouldering away.

I've tried dry brushing with some acrylic paint it's come out a bit on the white side, further practice needed of my weathering technique?

 

Edited November 28, 2016 by relaxinghobby

[relaxinghobby]

I'm afraid this is a static model only, I thought I might motorise it but it would be a lot of design and modifying work, even to get it just rolling.

I have plenty of etched chassis kits to build, those at least stand a chance of getting running under there own power.

thank you for your interest.

There are other projects under consideration, a Bachmann US 0-6-0 tender H0 switcher, at least  it is a working chassis. I won't to convert the body shell to an 0-6-0 saddle tank of the type imported to UK railways in the 1899 locomotive famine. the same saddle tank from the Bachmann Billy 0-6-0st could also be used to convert a Hornby/Wrenn 0-6-0t R1 chassis into a saddle tank of the like used by the South Wales coal railways or many mainline companies converted older and smaller road engines into shunters when they where displaced by newer and bigger road engines.

So who knows, what next with the bits and pieces I have available?

[Corbs]

Relaxinghobby - do you think a dark wash with some powders might help dull it down a bit? It reminds me of a loco you can get in 'Transport Fever' (PC Game).

 

 

Hi Corbs

How is the latest loco project coming along, looking forward to seeing the result when she's finished.

 

Trying to clear my current project (NWR No.106 'Percy') at the moment, then I might crack on with the streaklantic or the P2 rebuild

[scots region]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117132-lmsr-explorer-class-an-atl-vignette/

 

Would anyone care for a spot of light reading?

[Dunsignalling]

If we are modelling an "extra" bit of railway, it follows that the motive power requirements of the network of which it is supposedly part, would differ from reality. One could also envisage an imaginary, less severe, version of The Reshaping of British Railways.

 

This could change reality in a number of ways, notably as suggested by the OP in certain classes existing in greater numbers. An obvious one might be the proposed but, in reality, unbuilt Southern Region Clans being allocated to Bath Green Park to work over a surviving Somerset & Dorset. We even know the names they would have carried and that they would have been given BR1B tenders!

 

There is also the possibility of types that disappeared immediately following the end of WW2 that had only survived because of the hostilities being retained longer. The same might apply to some that went in mass culls that took place in 1955 and 1962 (on the Southern Region, at least).

 

A few personal speculations enjoyed from time to time are

 

• What if the LSWR West of England Main line and the routes west of Exeter hadn't been transferred to the Western Region and closed or run down in (fortunately mistaken) anticipation of it. Imagine BR Standard 4s gradually taking over duties down the Withered arm as the T9s and SR moguls wore out. Maybe Thumper units working (or at least being trialled) on local services from Padstow to Okehampton and Exeter. An 04 or 07 diesel at Wenford Bridge? Q1s working out of Meldon or banking at Exeter?

• What if the proposed SR Timetable for 1963 had actually been implemented with fast, hourly Bulleid-hauled  8-coach trains to the West Country replacing heavier, less frequent services.

• What if it had been decided to electrify to Exeter after the Bournemouth/Weymouth scheme had been completed with steam retained longer and modern "foreign" locos displaced from elsewhere being drafted in to replace older types until the 33s were released. Maybe the Padstow portion of the ACE becoming a 33/1+4TC working and being added to REP units at Salisbury, then Yeovil and finally Exeter as the third rail marched west. 

• What if the ECML had been electrified earlier with the Deltics transferred to the SR to replace the Merchant Navies.........  

The possibilities are almost endless and comparable scenarios for most parts of the country could be worked out. 

 

John

Edited December 19, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[DavidB-AU]

• What if it had been decided to electrify to Exeter after the Bournemouth/Weymouth scheme had been completed with steam retained longer and modern "foreign" locos displaced from elsewhere being drafted in to replace older types until the 33s were released. Maybe the Padstow portion of the ACE becoming a 33/1+4TC working and being added to REP units at Salisbury, then Yeovil and finally Exeter as the third rail marched west. 

Under the Modernisation Plan, rolling electrification was supposed to keep going after Kent Coast. Slidey rail was supposed to reach Exeter in 1975, after Weymouth. The rebuilt Bulleid Pacifics and BR Standards were intended to keep working until then. Probably the Q1s too as by 1975 they would only have been 33 years old. It's quite possible the 33/1 would never have existed in this scenario.

 

 

• What if the ECML had been electrified earlier with the Deltics transferred to the SR to replace the Merchant Navies.........  

 

ECML electrification was originally intended to have a similar timeline to the WCML. Had it actually started at the same time, the Deltics probably would not have been built. The 1955 plan would have seen steam still operating until 1975. Alternatively, the class 50s (which were initially leased from EE for 10 years) could have worked both lines from 1967 until electrification was complete. Southern Region might have ended up with some to replace steam to Exeter and Weymouth. Had the Devon Banks and beyond electrification proceeded too (it was planned before the war), Western Region wouldn't have had a need for them.

 

Cheers

David

Edited December 19, 2016 by DavidB-AU

[Dunsignalling]

Indeed, working out the likely knock-on effects on other parts of the rail system had real events just taken place in a different order (or even the planned one!) opens up fascinating possibilities without inventing anything.

 

Different scenarios, overlaid on a layout with an established backstory, could give rise to whole new ways of stocking and operating it.

 

As you say, had the GWR's electrification plans been implemented, not only would they not have needed the Fifties, but standardisation on ETH coaches would have probably ensued, making the WR excursion into diesel hydraulic traction unlikely, too and who knows what might have we seen instead?

 

Imagine a Swindon 'Warship' body-shell but with pantographs...........  

 

John   

Edited December 19, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[Allegheny1600]

In light of todays increasing rail use, has anyone imagineered what things might be like today without beeching and the severe pruning of the railways back in the 60s and 70's?

 

I like to think what may have happened if we had had French or German style levels of government investment in our railways post WW2 and subsequently.

 

The first thing that comes to my mind is an electrified Great Central route.

But, what voltage system? Had electrification been started soon after the end of hostilities, surely we would have used 1500v dc? Back then, the most widely used high voltage system would have been the central European/Scandinavian system of 15Kv AC - would this not have been a better choice?

What about BR 'electric blue' class 103's hauling heavy 125Mph expresses between Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham, Leicester and London by the late 60's?

Just my fevered imagination!

John.

[DavidB-AU]

In light of todays increasing rail use, has anyone imagineered what things might be like today without beeching and the severe pruning of the railways back in the 60s and 70's?

There would have been some pruning of the extremities and branches which had already started before Beeching. Or really stripping them back to DMU only without any freight. But some other lines could certainly have stayed open. The GC, S&D and Waverley would be obvious ones. Having said that, more of the secondary lines remaining open could have severely curtailed some early preservation efforts. We would not have the Bluebell, NYMR, WSR, GCR, etc.

 

Don't forget there were even some new lines proposed in the 50s. An interesting one was 15 miles of new line from Ballachulish to Fort William, which would have allowed about 60 miles across Rannoch Moor to be closed.

 

Cheers

David

Edited December 19, 2016 by DavidB-AU

[TheQ]

The amount of investment has little to do with the pruning of the railways the French certainly, have lost almost all their huge trackage of narrow guage lines, the equivalent of our branch lines.

I suspect had the Great Central stayed open and the Chunnel built that it may well have been what ever voltage was just across the channel at that time

[Zomboid]

Or if we'd decided to go with high speed rail considerably earlier than HS1. What would the network (and therefore rolling stock) look like then?

(I'd say that one of the ECML/WCML to Scotland might have gone or been significantly downgraded, with the intercity passenger trains going via a high speed line and freight on the old route - ECML possibly, since I believe the hills are easier that side)

[scots region]

In light of todays increasing rail use, has anyone imagineered what things might be like today without beeching and the severe pruning of the railways back in the 60s and 70's?

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Britain-without-Beeching-Iain-Bowen-ebook/dp/B01LZQNBZM/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1482192486&sr=1-3&keywords=sea+lion+press

 

I've just finished reading one possible such alternative scenario. Well worth it in my consideration.

[The Johnster]

It has struck me that there is a significant disconnect between the behaviour of modellers towards rolling stock when compared with the places we model.

 

Many people go to great lengths to ensure that every detail of their engines is historically correct, then cheerfully place them in a ficticious piece of geography.

 

If we allow ourselves to create an imaginary world, then surely we should imagine also that the railway companies built additional stock to serve the line, because all the real vehicles were busy serving the real world.

 

I am not necessarily advocating freelance designs but, rather as we adopt characteristic architectural styles and standard buildings, we could postulate extra members of real locomotive classes. If the traffic demands it, we could also propose variants or sub classes of real designs.

 

Discuss....

 

Not quite.  In the case of a large company,  it is more likely that the standard stock would be allocated to the imaginary location than that new stock would not be allocated elsewhere in the general pool arrangement of vehicles.  My own bit of blt imagination is set in the South Wales Valleys 60 years ago in an area that, had the prototype railway ever existed, would have been supplied with locomotives and stock from Tondu, so my locos are (or will be eventually when I've finished building the basic layout and got round to renumbering them) numbered and liveried for known Tondu locomotive in the 1950s, backed up with photographs wherever possible.  The imaginary station is served by rolling stock generally typical of the area at the time without imagining new ones; I suspect most modellers do something similar.

 

Nothing wrong with building imaginary members of classes, representations of locos planned but never built, or locos and stock of your own devising so long as they look as though they might actually have been able to run, but I am not sure that it is railway modelling in the generally accepted sense of the term.  There is a serious point to be made, though, in that it would be possible to show what a Mattingley pacific or a Riddles 2-8-2 might have looked like in 3 dimensions (other never built locos are available).  Somebody might even have a go at recreating Hitler's insane Breitspurbahn, double decker 120mph transcontinental expresses 40 feet high running on 10 foot gauge track pulled by monstrous double boilered locos with 120 foot long 8 wheel bogied luxury coaches containing swimming pools and the like, Berlin to Vladivostok in 20 hours.

 

Google it.  It'll remind you how sane you are, and how nuts he was...

[The Johnster]

This would be better with outside bearings, not only for ease of access but having bearings under the firebox brings problems keeping ash out of the bearings. Look at pictures of wide firebox engines and I think they all have outside bearings. Engines with inside bearings under the firebox usually have narrow fireboxes.

 

One of the Great Bear's probems was hot axleboxes on the trailing axle, and it might have benefitted from outside bearings.  Outside Great Bearings, perhaps.

 

I'll get my coat...

[The Johnster]

Having thought about it a little more, it is actually closest to a Meyer arrangement: single fairly conventional boiler over two swivelling powered bogies. The geared drive is distinctively different, so Bulleid-Meyer.

 

I can see where Bulleid went wrong with the concept, and am definitely going to follow up the suggestion of Ron Jarvis, who said that it needed complete redesign. So, out with all the funny stuff in the engine department, two cylinders per bogie with outside Walschaerts gear, cylinders to the centre Meyer style. Now the tricky bit, the off centreline boiler, with the associated over weight and crew seperation issues. Well, it is obvious isn't it? Use the proven barbette mounting with 'walking pipes' developed for the RN battleships. Have a conventional boiler spin round on a turntable above the bogies, so the firebox is always at the leading end. Bunkers and tanks on the frame ends so the fireman always has a supply. Course, if the fuel runs out one end, the crew have to wait for a nice clear section so that they can spin the boiler on the move. Simple .

 

Surely Leader is a single boilered double Fairlie...

[The Johnster]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Britain-without-Beeching-Iain-Bowen-ebook/dp/B01LZQNBZM/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1482192486&sr=1-3&keywords=sea+lion+press

 

I've just finished reading one possible such alternative scenario. Well worth it in my consideration.

 

Good concept!  There'd have been a lot more need for dmus to service the branches and intermediate mainline stations that remained open, presumably by now in their 3rd generation as demus, neither being any different to the trains actually built, just more of them.  The local goods yards might have stayed in business resulting in the need for a diesel electric around the 800-1000hp mark, like the German V160 concept.  Plenty of those around in 1963, but only the 20s were any good and they would soon have been needed for the mgr traffic, so there'd have probably been a centre cab d/e Bo-Bo, hopefully better than the Clayton D85xx or Teddy Bear, the latter being underpowered and too slow anyway, maybe with a 25kv electro-diesel version.  By now this would be either retromodded or replaced by new builds with electronic traction control and all the other gizmos locos have these days; they would likely have seen off the remaining 08s years ago.  D86xx/class 16?

Edited December 21, 2016 by The Johnster