Imaginary Locomotives

[Michael Edge]

The reason for the water tanks behind the GMAMs was to reduce axle weight, they had only minimal water capacity on the loco.

[NZRedBaron]

13 hours ago, Buckfire said:

I personally think A Peppercorn A1 would work, and I personally think Black Agnes would be appropriate to name the engine, Agnes IS a folk hero, and having the engine named Black Agnes would lean into that theme of her being a well known figure 

 

10 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Epithet. Look at Wolf of Badenoch.

 

So, the general consensus here is a Peppercorn A1 named "Black Agnes", then?

[DenysW]

4 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Surely that's the whole point of using a specialist supplier; that they know something you don't? 

Mostly yes, partly no. If you buy (say) French locomotives because they are either cheaper or better, or both, then every nut, bolt, spanner will need to be metric in their operation, maintenance and repair. Big irritation, moderate cost.

 

The mantra from about 1900 onwards was standardisation to reduce cost-of-ownership, to which there was a great temptation, to which LMS and LNER both succumbed, to say 'Yes, and you must use these Standard modules we've developed as part of your design.'. Beyer Garratt seem to have been especially prone to building exactly what the customer specified -because they were willing to pay for it - rather than what was right for the customer's needs. So LMS and LNER didn't meddle with the articulated steam joints (no standard details available in-house), but did meddle with the engines that were receiving the steam.

[JimC]

8 minutes ago, DenysW said:

Yes, and you must use these Standard modules we've developed as part of your design.'. Beyer Garratt seem to have been especially prone to building exactly what the customer specified 

When I look at the Beyer proposals to the GWR there's a definite appearance of use of standard GWR components. Of course use of standard components is in no way a problem provided that the parts in question are up to the job.

[tomparryharry]

Standard parts were quite common by 1900. The first standard parts were set down by Gooch, some 50 years earlier. He sent out specifications, drawings & templates to the various locomotive builders of the day.  Private builders of locomotives could build anything bespoke.  Engineers like Gooch, the Armstrongs, Dean, Churchward & others all went for standardisation, because working experience of the build in question made it an easy, workable choice.

 

Coming through the years, the MGTF car uses a lot of suspension components from the original Mini of 1959. The cylinder head on a Morris Minor fits straight onto a Morris 1100. Things like this is normal when you are working with known values.

[The Johnster]

One comes across stories of locos that turned out to be failures when on paper they looked as if they shouldn't have been, and there may be a reason for this, or part of a reason, to be found in loco crews' working practices.  If you are in a link where you are working the same jobs with the same locos and similar loads repeatedly, you develop a routine of opening the regulator, changing the reverser setting, feeding the boiler, firing, braking, taking water, and running at specific speeds at specific stages of the turn that are tailored to the job in hand.  In this way, time is kept, fuel efficiency is maximised, and you go home on time without being unduly filthy and exhausted (in theory at least). 

 

Steam railwaymen liked to work in set patterns which had been proved to work, and change disrupted these patterns.  So, when a new loco appears on a job, it will take time for the men to learn the new routine (nobody taught you anything in those days, you found it out for yourself by experience and cabin conversation, and there was no traction signing, all steam engines were considered to be similar enough to each other not to need it), and until they do, time will lost, water stops needed in new locations, firemen will have to work a lot harder which means coal and water will be wasted, and sometimes matters are so bad that stopping on running lines for a blow-up is needed.  The men discuss this in the cabin and come to the unequivocal conclusion that the new loco is not as good as the old one, even it it is more powerful.  The impression lasts, because that's what locomen are like (grumbling is standard procedure), even long after the new loco has been tamed and the job is proceeding more efficiently than before.  Younger firemen are told tales about how good the older locos were, and that 'they don't make 'em like they used to' (this was usually just as well!).

 

When this was compounded, as it often was in BR days, by the new loco being of a different heritage, company loyalty came into play and the new loco's 'faults' were laid at the door of the outsider designer (especially if you were a WR driver with the expected viewpoint about the LMS, and BR, which was, in their minds, a continuation of the LMS, which was in turn a continuation of the hated Midland...).  The reaction of WR drivers to Britannias is a case in point, but they were popular at Canton, a shed with a fair bit of hilly heavy passenger work ideal for a 2-cylinder slogger with a free-steaming boiler. 

 

As an example, not very long after Nationalisation, Riddles WD 2-8-0s were trialled on North Somerset coal trains on the S&DJ route between Bath and Radstock, with a view to using them to replace the famous Derby 2-8-0s.  The men were well on top of these heavy jobs with the Derby engines, but the 8F WDs, good and proven heavy mineral haulers and more powerful than the 7F Derby engines, were too different for them and failed miserably.  Running out of steam and having to stop for a blow on a busy single-track main line does not gain you any popularity awards!

 

But it would be delusional to claim that S&DJ company loyalty and pride in their original engines did not play a part in the failures.  Not suggesting that the men sabotaged the runs, but it might be reasonable to suppose that they were not going to go particularly far out of their way to make a success of them either.  If there was ever a railway where the men ran the job their own way and management kept out of the way, it was the Somerset & Dorset!!!!  The truth, and the extent of it, will always be a matter of conjecture, but the WDs did well enough elsewhere, on similar work, a vindication of the Stanier 8F leading dimensions, and unexpectedly well for wartime austerity engines designed to last until the end of hostilities but in service for another two decades.  The S&DJ was a bit of a switchback for 50-wagon loose-coupled loaded mineral trains, but so was the Pontypool-Neath route...

[Buckfire]

Are there still any any pictures of what it would’ve looked like if the LMS bought Castles from the GWR? Just curious. 

[Invicta]

1 hour ago, Buckfire said:

Are there still any any pictures of what it would’ve looked like if the LMS bought Castles from the GWR? Just curious. 

 

I'm sure there's been a 4mm LMS layout on the exhibition circuit in recent years that featured an 'LMS Castle'- From memory I saw it at the Loughborough exhibition a few years back, and had a brief "Is that what I think it is?" conversation about it with one of the layout operators. Can anyone recall which layout this might be?

[burgundy]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

When this was compounded, as it often was in BR days, by the new loco being of a different heritage, company loyalty came into play and the new loco's 'faults' were laid at the door of the outsider designer (especially if you were a WR driver with the expected viewpoint about the LMS, and BR, which was, in their minds, a continuation of the LMS, which was in turn a continuation of the hated Midland...).  The reaction of WR drivers to Britannias is a case in point, but they were popular at Canton, a shed with a fair bit of hilly heavy passenger work ideal for a 2-cylinder slogger with a free-steaming boiler. 

Scene - a driving experience day at Tyseley. 

Loco - a Bulleid pacific. 

Driver - an ex-WR man with a very strong brummy accent and evidently used to the al-fresco cab design of the GWR

Quote in the cosy warmth of the Bulleid cab - "its like sitting on top of a ru@@y volcano".

Best wishes

Eric

[Michael Edge]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

Would an LMS batch of Castles have had outside valve gear? Or would that be difficult with the Churchward 4 cylinder layout, within the more restrictive LMS loading gauge?

Not difficult at all, that's exactly what 6205 Princess Victoria had and the first two had a slidebar arrangement almost identical to GW practice.

[tomparryharry]

An LMS Castle? I wouldn't think so. Churchward & Deeley  both used scissor-geared valve design. Having a Castle locomotive might well have impinged on  things like patents, etc. It took Stanier to rectify the inter-company wrangling of the various factions. 

 

 

[Flying Pig]

8 hours ago, Buckfire said:

Are there still any any pictures of what it would’ve looked like if the LMS bought Castles from the GWR? Just curious. 

 

Just take a file to a Castle to get it within the loading LMS gauge. However, as mentioned on here before, the railway companies were not allowed to sell new locomotives from their works, so it would be more likely that the LMS would have built the locos themselves based on the GWR drawings, had the GWR been willing to share them.

 

Years ago there were some images of LMS Castles on one or other generation of RMweb, including a couple I modified from someone elses original (with permission).  Both showed outside valve gear but I gave one a cab and platework in the style of a Horwich 4-6-0 and the other followed Royal Scot era cab and platework styling, wth flat smoke deflectors.  I think the boilers were domed with a top feed, but I'm not entirely sure at this remove. The tender was in the Fowler style like those originally fitted to 6200 and 6201.  To be honest, neither looked quite right, giving the impression of a mutant Jubilee.

[JimC]

7 hours ago, rodent279 said:

 Or would that be difficult with the Churchward 4 cylinder layout,

Rather difficult. Wheels get in the way of the rockers if they move behind the cylinders. The Duchesses had quite different wheel spacing.

Although I suppose, bearing in mind the LMS drawing office apparently failed to understand the point of the carefully angled cranks on the GWR valve gear, one might be cynical and suggest they would have been quite happy with valve timing issues caused by valve rod expansion if the out to in rockers were in front of the cylinders.

Edited January 7 by JimC

[The Johnster]

8 hours ago, burgundy said:

Scene - a driving experience day at Tyseley. 

Loco - a Bulleid pacific. 

Driver - an ex-WR man with a very strong brummy accent and evidently used to the al-fresco cab design of the GWR

Quote in the cosy warmth of the Bulleid cab - "its like sitting on top of a ru@@y volcano".

Best wishes

Eric

 

When Churchwrd put a GE Holden-style cab that actually gave some shelter from the elephants on to County Carlow, the drivers complained that it prevented them from leaning out of the side of it for a better view ahead.  He didn't repeat the experiment; Tuplin suggests that he my have taken the attitude that they could freeze as far as he was concerned, and for once Tuplin may have some credibility with this view...

 

Fast Forward to the 70s when The Johnster was a goods guard at Canton, and I'll introduce you to 'Overcoat Joe', Ron Backhouse, bit of a character and a great bloke to work with, who preferred to lean out of the window of diesel cabs despite having a good view ahead through the cab windows.  He dressed accordingly, even in hot summer weather, overcoat, scarf, motorbike goggles, and a tight-fitting Dai cap turned bacwards.  A traditionalist.

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

shelter from the elephants

We all know the Western was different, but I didn't know it rained pachyderms out West!

[The Johnster]

Oh, yes.  Cats and dogs as well.  And stairods.

[Buckfire]

5 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Just take a file to a Castle to get it within the loading LMS gauge. However, as mentioned on here before, the railway companies were not allowed to sell new locomotives from their works, so it would be more likely that the LMS would have built the locos themselves based on the GWR drawings, had the GWR been willing to share them.

 

Years ago there were some images of LMS Castles on one or other generation of RMweb, including a couple I modified from someone elses original (with permission).  Both showed outside valve gear but I gave one a cab and platework in the style of a Horwich 4-6-0 and the other followed Royal Scot era cab and platework styling, wth flat smoke deflectors.  I think the boilers were domed with a top feed, but I'm not entirely sure at this remove. The tender was in the Fowler style like those originally fitted to 6200 and 6201.  To be honest, neither looked quite right, giving the impression of a mutant Jubilee.

I think I know the post you’re talking about, but, as with many other older posts on this thread, the pictures are gone, and I do t know if anyone has salvaged them. God, please tell me there’s a way to retrieve them without going through too many hoops. 

[DK123GWR]

13 minutes ago, Buckfire said:

I think I know the post you’re talking about, but, as with many other older posts on this thread, the pictures are gone, and I do t know if anyone has salvaged them. God, please tell me there’s a way to retrieve them without going through too many hoops. 

You will have to ask the poster. If they don't have them it's very unlikely that anyone else will.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

On 05/01/2024 at 13:42, The Lurker said:

As a child I was given Railways in the Years of Pre-Eminence  by OS Nock. IThe Golsdorf "masterpiece" was always one of my favourites in it.

 

If you enjoy it in picture form, you will enjoy it even more in real life...

 

 

It lives in the museum at Strasshof an der Nordbahn which is about 45 minutes by train from Vienna Hbf.  It comes out to play now an then, which would be a sight to see.

 

I had an excellent day there last August, pretty much had the entire museum to myself.

[Flying Pig]

37 minutes ago, DK123GWR said:

You will have to ask the poster. If they don't have them it's very unlikely that anyone else will.

 

I don't, at least not anywhere accessible.

[Buckfire]

1 hour ago, DK123GWR said:

You will have to ask the poster. If they don't have them it's very unlikely that anyone else will.

Alrighty then, I will, thanks for the tip. 

[Buckfire]

4 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

I don't, at least not anywhere accessible.

Darn, well thanks anyway. 

[JimC]

I posted these on another thread, but they may as well go here too. More GWR kit of parts specials.
The top one is my interpretation of the 5'8in 4-6-0 that Churchward outlined but never built. I've posted it here before I think, but not in colour.  Its roughly contemporary with the first 4700 in general style.

 

This second is a lightweight 4-6-0, a Churchward Manor if you like. The Manor challenge is the boiler, which needs to have greater capacity than a Std4 and  be lighter than a Std 1. In the event Collett designed a complete new boiler in every respect. I decided Churchward would not have done that, but produced a new boiler that was based on the Std1/4 flanging blocks. The firebox is the same length as a Manor, intermediate between Std 1 and Std4, whilst the barrel is appreciably shorter than a Manor one, only  inches longer than a Std 4 barrel. 

 

I'm quite pleased with the look of this boiler, if I'm not kidding myself it gives the locomotive a more purposeful look than the Manor. In reality of course Collet's team would surely have considered and rejected a shortened Std 1 like this before they went ahead and designed a complete new boiler for the Manor.

[Niels]

17 hours ago, JimC said:

I

 

I'm quite pleased with the look of this boiler, if I'm not kidding myself it gives the locomotive a more purposeful look than the Manor. In reality of course Collet's team would surely have considered and rejected a shortened Std 1 like this before they went ahead and designed a complete new boiler for the Manor.

How will it look with 5 feet drivers and 16 inch cylinders?

If a two-cylinder Saint with 80 inch drivers can do 100 so this is limited to 75 with 60 inch drivers.

Fast enough for Wales.

[The Johnster]

And Cornwall, and much of Devon.  But 5’2” would be more likely, already a standard size (albeit not a Churchward one).