Imaginary Locomotives

[RedGemAlchemist]

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That would imply it served the north-east, to which the North Eastern Railway might reasonably have taken exception. 

Hmm. Good point. 

[relaxinghobby]

Just because a railway company had any particular region mentioned in their name did not actually mean they ever got any where near it, just had aspirations to reach there someday in a future expansion. For example the Mid Wales Railway which never quite reached either end  ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Wales_Railway ) or the during the Railway Mania period of the1830s.

Another would be the Manchester and Milford Railway never got to Manchester or Milford Haven.

https://longlostrailways.blogspot.com/2013/01/manchester-and-milford-railway.html

 

Must be many others.

[Michael Edge]

How about Lancashire Derbyshire and East Coast?

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Michael Edge said:

How about Lancashire Derbyshire and East Coast?

 

That would do very well for the GC GE GN combine!

[john new]

On 18/01/2024 at 19:49, relaxinghobby said:

Just because a railway company had any particular region mentioned in their name did not actually mean they ever got any where near it, just had aspirations to reach there someday in a future expansion. For example the Mid Wales Railway which never quite reached either end  ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Wales_Railway ) or the during the Railway Mania period of the1830s.

Another would be the Manchester and Milford Railway never got to Manchester or Milford Haven.

https://longlostrailways.blogspot.com/2013/01/manchester-and-milford-railway.html

 

Must be many others.

Hull, Barnsley & WR Junction. Hull (tick) Barnsley (close but no cigar) but did reach collieries in the West Riding.

[Buckfire]

Was it true that bulleid had plans for an Atlantic? (4-4-2) I remember seeing that on either this site or another. 

[Buckfire]

On 16/09/2017 at 15:29, Northroader said:

I reckon a Bulleid Atlantic is what you're really seeking.

Edit: P.S. There were two of them, intended to work the "Bournemouth Belle"

21B1 "Solent"

21B2 "New Forest"

You"d be amazed the number of people who've never heard of them.

Is there some kind of illustration of them by any chance? I’ve seen and read this idea a few times and want to know if there’s any visual example of them. 

[Northroader]

Er, no, I’m afraid the thread is titled “Imaginary Locomotives”, and the two “Bullied Atlantics” are very much in my imagination. You’ll just have to get an unrebuilt “West Country” and start sawing.

[rockershovel]

24 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Er, no, I’m afraid the thread is titled “Imaginary Locomotives”, and the two “Bullied Atlantics” are very much in my imagination. You’ll just have to get an unrebuilt “West Country” and start sawing.

Page 436 of this thread shows one 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

31 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Er, no, I’m afraid the thread is titled “Imaginary Locomotives”, and the two “Bullied Atlantics” are very much in my imagination. You’ll just have to get an unrebuilt “West Country” and start sawing.

A bit like the imagined Gresley design for a 4-6-0 streamliner, cut and shut from an A4, eh?

 

 

(Image from this thread: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/176497-Hornby-2023-new-tooling-streamlined-b175/)

Edited February 3 by Jeremy Cumberland

[Flying Fox 34F]

You want to take a look at the O gauge streamlined Gresley V2, then?

 

Paul

[PhilJ W]

59 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

A bit like the imagined Gresley design for a 4-6-0 streamliner, cut and shut from an A4, eh?

 

 

(Image from this thread: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/176497-Hornby-2023-new-tooling-streamlined-b175/)

There was a pair of streamlined B17's, much better proportioned.

[PhilJ W]

9 hours ago, Buckfire said:

Was it true that bulleid had plans for an Atlantic? (4-4-2) I remember seeing that on either this site or another. 

It might be on this thread there was an imaginary Bullied rebuild of a Schools 4-4-0 complete with 'spam can' streamlining and box pox wheels. It was some years ago now.

[Buckfire]

3 hours ago, Northroader said:

Er, no, I’m afraid the thread is titled “Imaginary Locomotives”, and the two “Bullied Atlantics” are very much in my imagination. You’ll just have to get an unrebuilt “West Country” and start sawing.

Gotcha, thanks for letting me know. I’ll see if I can commission someone to make it, or just draw it myself. 

[Buckfire]

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Page 436 of this thread shows one 

I know which one you’re talking about, and I think that’s pretty close to what I have in mind. 

[PrincePalatine2551]

Check out these fascinating Hughes 4-6-0 and 4-4-2 locomotive concepts.

Inspired by the iconic Crab, the Hughes Atlantic and 4-6-0 would have been a groundbreaking addition to the railway world. If Hughes had chosen to pursue this design, these locomotives might have been constructed before his retirement in 1926. I believe Hughes had a Pacific design in mind, although it never materialized.

Unfortunately, the LMS faced a setback because of the "small engine policy," delaying the introduction of larger engines until the Royal Scot, engineered by Fowler, came into existence in 1927. Imagine the possibilities if these imaginative Hughes locomotives had seen the light of day!

Edited February 5 by PrincePalatine2551

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, PrincePalatine2551 said:

Unfortunately, the LMS faced a setback because of the "small engine policy," 

 

The what?

[62613]

6 hours ago, PrincePalatine2551 said:

Check out these fascinating Hughes 2-6-0 and 4-4-2 locomotive concepts.

Inspired by the iconic Crab, the Hughes Atlantic and 4-6-0 would have been a groundbreaking addition to the railway world. If Hughes had chosen to pursue this design, these locomotives might have been constructed before his retirement in 1926. I believe Hughes had a Pacific design in mind, although it never materialized.

Unfortunately, the LMS faced a setback because of the "small engine policy," delaying the introduction of larger engines until the Royal Scot, engineered by Fowler, came into existence in 1927. Imagine the possibilities if these imaginative Hughes locomotives had seen the light of day!

The top one looks like a 4 - 6 - 0 to me; is the ashpan behind  the rear coupled wheels?

[DenysW]

7 hours ago, PrincePalatine2551 said:

Unfortunately, the LMS faced a setback because of the "small engine policy," delaying the introduction of larger engines until the Royal Scot,

This is a wide-spread and (mostly) false myth. Thus:

 

-   The LMS was formed in 1923, and decided to spend a year or so continuing planned construction while it worked out what it needed

-   It then decided on its three top priorities for new locomotives, none of which was a top-line passenger locomotive

-   Instead it did trials of the most powerful Midland/LYR/LNWR designs, and the Midland Compound came out as the most economical, and generally better than in in-house 4-6-0s from the other in-house companies

-   Only 3 years later (lightning fast in steam-railway terms ), it discovered it needed more power than the Compounds were capable of, trialled a GWR Castle, and this lead to the Scots.

 

So: one bad-with-hindsight decision in a committee meeting in 1922 and a myth is born. 

 

 

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, DenysW said:

-   Instead it did trials of the most powerful Midland/LYR/LNWR designs, and the Midland Compound came out as the most economical, and generally better than in in-house 4-6-0s from the other in-house companies

-   Only 3 years later (lightning fast in steam-railway terms ), it discovered it needed more power than the Compounds were capable of, trialled a GWR Castle, and this lead to the Scots.

 

Of course the ex-LNWR Claughton and ex-LYR Dreadnought 4-cylinder 4-6-0s were both on paper (5P)  and in fact more powerful than the Compounds but the key point is that the Compounds were never intended to do the work those engines were intended for. The crisis that led to the Royal Scots was not a consequence of building Compounds to replace the less good 3P/4P 4-4-0s inherited from various companies but was a consequence of the unsatisfactory state of the 5P 4-6-0s inherited from the LNWR.

[Flying Pig]

Some discussion of the Hughes Dreadnought 4-6-0 at the links below.  Apart from Cox, nobody seems particularly impressed and while improvements could doubtless have been made to eliminate some of their weak points, I doubt the result would have been better than a Patriot.

 

https://steamindex.com/locotype/hughloco.htm

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=Great_Britain&wheel=4-6-0&railroad=ly#2334

 

 

[Flying Pig]

On 03/02/2024 at 12:09, PhilJ W said:

There was a pair of streamlined B17's, much better proportioned.

 

Err, btw, that is a streamlined B17 from the Hornby thread.

[PrincePalatine2551]

 

10 hours ago, DenysW said:

This is a wide-spread and (mostly) false myth. Thus:

 

-   The LMS was formed in 1923, and decided to spend a year or so continuing planned construction while it worked out what it needed

-   It then decided on its three top priorities for new locomotives, none of which was a top-line passenger locomotive

-   Instead it did trials of the most powerful Midland/LYR/LNWR designs, and the Midland Compound came out as the most economical, and generally better than in in-house 4-6-0s from the other in-house companies

-   Only 3 years later (lightning fast in steam-railway terms ), it discovered it needed more power than the Compounds were capable of, trialled a GWR Castle, and this lead to the Scots.

 

So: one bad-with-hindsight decision in a committee meeting in 1922 and a myth is born. 

 

 

 

What I meant is that instead of hauling long passenger trains, the LMS used to do more frequent and stopping trains, leaving no necessity for larger locomotives. The idea of creating shorter journeys came from the Midland Railway. This worked well for them, but it became more complicated on the West Coast Mainline, especially having the LNER as competition on the East Coast Mainline. Because of this competition and longer mainline, the first Royal Scot and Patriot designs were built.

[Flying Pig]

26 minutes ago, PrincePalatine2551 said:

 

 

What I meant is that instead of hauling long passenger trains, the LMS used to do more frequent and stopping trains, leaving no necessity for larger locomotives. The idea of creating shorter journeys came from the Midland Railway. This worked well for them, but it became more complicated on the West Coast Mainline, especially having the LNER as competition on the East Coast Mainline. Because of this competition and longer mainline, the first Royal Scot and Patriot designs were built.

 

You might be interested in the discussion of that subject on this recent thread:

 

 

[PhilJ W]

11 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Err, btw, that is a streamlined B17 from the Hornby thread.

The CAD drawings are misleading, when the skirting was removed as a wartime measure a curved section remained behind the cylinders. This corresponds to the section in grey on the cad drawing. Also the (usual) front three quarter view does not emphasise the set back third driver. The LNER streamliners always looked better with the side skirts.