Buying older professionally built locos

[hayfield]

Quite often on eBay I see models for sale quoted as professionally built with very high prices to match, no doubt some deserving the prices quoted. But on the other hand I have seen some awful examples claiming to have been professionally built at exorbitant prices. My early years of railway modelling was at a time where RTR locos had poor detail and little choice of prototypes. If you wanted something different then it had to be kit or scratch built. This must be where my preference of kit built stock arises from

 

I saw a loco on eBay, the listing was a bit confusing stating both 00 & EM gauges, Motor being an Airfix 5 pole and loco not working due to a short in the chassis

 

 

On the face of it the loco did actually look well built, Wills 4F, I could see Romford wheels the listing stated 5 pole motor, thought the chassis was the Wills whitemetal one with added detail. With the motors being bomb proof thought the short would be easy to fix. Seller wanted £40 + but had failed to sell for two weeks. put in a cheeky bid of £30 which was accepted

 

 

The loco arrived along with an Anchorage D11 motor, was to EM gauge (a plus as I am building an EM gauge layout. Checked the motor over and it was fine. I noticed one of the brake shoes had been resoldered, looked to be too close to the wheel, so I moved it back and the loco was fine. My guess about the make of chassis was wrong as it seems to be one of the Bristol Models kits. Once the motor is sold I have a nicely finished loco for not very much money

 

The next eBay find was a Keyser Adams Radial tank, the seller stated it had been expertly built for him but never used

 

 

Might have been the dust that put bidders off. The body certainly had deen very well built and painted, just needs a clean. The K's wheels never put me off or the thought of changing the motor. As it is I am converting another one to EM gauge which is in BR livery

 

 

I have not even bothered cleaning the wheels, the pickups are a work of art, longer term I think I may well build a chassis from Gibson milled frames with either Gibson or Markit wheels, a decent gear box and motor

 

Forgot to say I got it for £24 + postage, the wheels will clean up fine. the loco does work but performance will be much better if I cleaned them, but an EM gauge chassis is what is required, you never know someone may want a K's Adams 00 gauge chassis

 

Just started the thread just to show if you keep your eyes open there are some little gems about. I am certain the Wills 4F would have sold for a lot more had a simple repair been undertaken and a clearer description given. Likewise with the Radial tank, had the body and chassis been cleaned and the chassis oiled again, in my opinion its worth far more that what it fetched

 

 

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

I may be controversial with this...

 

Just consider what 'professionally built' actually means: Someone has been paid to make it.

It is not the same as in sport, where a professional will be among best in their sport & therefore able to make money from it.

 

I have often considered how long I have spent building my home layout. 100-150 hours just on the wiring, maybe a little less on laying the track. If I were to charge my time to somebody for this, it would have cost £1000's.

If I needed to save time with the wiring, the only way I can think of is to do a less thorough job.

 

Some professional model makers will have developed tools or techniques to save lots of time & they may well be very good, but the bottom line is that someone is paying them for their time. If the customer wants something done to a price, then it will not necessarily be as good as if they wanted it done to the best possible standard.

 

I would not necessarily expect something made professionally to be any better than something done by a hobbyist. It is down to the individual.

[brossard]

I agree with Pete.  I think there is a word of caution for people buying "professionally" built locos with the expectation that they will be good performers and look good out of the box (on a par with RTR).  I think that many of these locos will need to have work done to get them up to standard (whatever that is), as John has pointed out.  I think the rule of thumb is that if you are buying second hand kit built models (locos, wagons or coaches) expect to have to rebuild them.

 

John

Edited October 18, 2019 by brossard

[Bernard Lamb]

4 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

 

I would not necessarily expect something made professionally to be any better than something done by a hobbyist. It is down to the individual.

Many years ago when I was involved in photography there were a lot of people about who called themselves professionals.

One trade body came up with a definition of that to mean that at lest 50% of your income had to come from photography for you to be accepted as a member and you had to send them figures to back up your application.

I do not think that such a body has ever existed for railway modellers. The numbers being too small for a start.

I would agree with you on being wary of what to expect from a professional. in fact I would trust a known hobbyist to do a better job in respect of any specification that I had asked for.

If the person is a genuine professional earning their living through model making then they must be fairly good or they would not last long. That still does not account for how far they would lower their normal standards if they were asked to do a job down to a price. Where the actual builder is not known then I do feel that you are taking a punt. But John knows what he is doing and seems to have picked up a couple of bargains.

Bernard

 

 

[andyman7]

I quite agree, 'professional' is just shorthand for well built/built by someone who knows what they are doing. There's lots of fun to be had digging through kitbuilds from years past, quality varies enormously but I have a soft spot for anything built with imagination and ingenuity, even if it doesn't make par with the modern superdetail RTR stuff.

The OP's Adams Radial is a case in point; a couple of decades ago people would have fallen over themselves to get hold of it; but with the Oxford Rail and Hornby ones plentiful, decent kitbuilt ones are easily overlooked today. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by andyman7

[hayfield]

Thinking of the word professional, many use this term where they earn their living from what they do, but there is no guarantee that their work is any good. 

 

The two examples I have shown are not from kits of today's standards, but then neither of them have cost me a kings ransom. I hope I have shown that there are well built models available at very reasonable costs. With very little cost they can be even better. I guess the word professional should be altered to competent builder, the K's simply stated it was built for him. Looking at both the quality of the body and the finish of the chassis components to a high or professional standard would have been a better choice. I have spent less than a cheaper RTR model and have 2 decent models. Its worth looking around to see what's about

 

The bodywork on both are of a very high standard, it could be argued that the 4F would benefit from a backhead in the cab, which could be obtained from Southeastern Finecast at a very reasonable cost. As it happens if I changed the motor for a smaller can motor and used one of the High Level gearboxes the model would be taken to a higher level, allowing a backhead to be fitted into the cab, bearing in mind there would be 2 motors to sell it would not cost much to do. A Comet or Southeastern Finecast etched chassis would be even better and really show off the body

 

The K's Radial body also has been built and painted to a very high standard. An easy job would be to fit a set of Markit drivers, a can motor and a gearbox. (I have these in my spare parts so would cost me nothing). A simple conversion to EM would also be easy using Markit EM gauge chassis spacers and axles. I am thinking it may deserve a bit more, as far as I am aware the only chassis available would be a set of Alan Gibson mainframes where additional detail would have to be built up, but a sprung chassis with a decent motor and chassis could give a performance to match its looks

[polybear]

Strangely such adverts never seem to mention just who the "professional" was.....

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, brossard said:

I agree with Pete.  I think there is a word of caution for people buying "professionally" built locos with the expectation that they will be good performers and look good out of the box (on a par with RTR).  I think that many of these locos will need to have work done to get them up to standard (whatever that is), as John has pointed out.  I think the rule of thumb is that if you are buying second hand kit built models (locos, wagons or coaches) expect to have to rebuild them.

 

John

 

 

John

 

If I bought something which was both said to be professionally built and expensive, I would expect a top class build and performance.

 

The 4F just needed a clean and a dab with a soldering iron and once the spare motor is sold it would have cost less than a M&S ready meal. Certainly agree buyer beware when buying either a RTR or kit built loco, but providing you have good clear photos you can steer away from those which need rebuilding. I am certain the K's will work well once the wheels are cleaned and both will give sterling service. I know both K's and Wills/SEF models quite well and should by now know what to look out for. Certainly with the Radial Tank I saw both the wheels and tell tail white gear wheel and knew these would need changing along with the HMP motor.

 

The Wills 4F I saw the Romford wheels, Mention of EM plus Airfix 5 pole motor which all led me to believe the builder knew what they were doing, add this to what looked like a good built. The all important thing was what I could get for a set of Romford 20mm wheels, a MW005 and D11 motors, I would still have what looked was a decent body and tender (I have a spare etched chassis) these were my get out of jail cards for a gamble of £30 + a bit of postage. When buying items like this, I tend to think what is the spares value. That is the good things about kit built locos, the odd thing sometimes gets through, but it is never a wright off and always a good lesson. And the fun is getting something and making it better than described

[hayfield]

2 minutes ago, polybear said:

Strangely such adverts never seem to mention just who the "professional" was.....

 

One eyed Bob !! Though I think the 4F is by Banksy 

 

Having said this Larry Goddard got rightly very upset when substandard models were wrongly attributed to him. Sometimes better not to say.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

27 minutes ago, hayfield said:

... Its worth looking around to see what's about...

 

1 minute ago, hayfield said:

...When buying items like this, I tend to think what is the spares value...

Careless talk potentially costs money! Old kit builds worth more as a parts mine help the budget go much further.

[hayfield]

On 18/10/2019 at 17:46, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

 

Careless talk potentially costs money! Old kit builds worth more as a parts mine help the budget go much further.

 

I use this scenario when I am uncertain of somethings value or build quality. If the body is a write off what is the bottom line on what I can salvage

 

Another way I look at something is if I remove something which has been an extra, what would I get for the remains. Example sometimes I see an unbuilt kit which has wheels, motor & gears with it. The kit itself is not of interest, but the wheels and motor would be very useful, If I have bought said kit for £40, keep a set of Romfords and a Mashima motor and sell the unmade (but still complete) kit for £20. The person who buys the kit would be happy  and I have a set of wheels that would have cost me £30 + and a motor £20.

 

Or you see a complete write off (something that has been damaged beyond repair, but again you rescue a set of wheels and motor. 

 

 

[Crosland]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

Another way I look at something is if I remove something which has been an extra, what would I get for the remains. Example sometimes I see an unbuilt kit which has wheels, motor & gears with it. The kit itself is not of interest, but the wheels and motor would be very useful, If I have bought said kit for £40, keep a set of Romfords and a Mashima motor and sell the unmade (but still complete) kit for £20.

 

I've done the opposite. Sold a Portescap and gearbox for more than I paid for the original lot of motor and Perseverance chassis kit

[Tim V]

To me the definition of a 'professionally built' model would be one where the builder built it once, built it right, and didn't expect to see it back for repair under guarantee. That way the minimum of time put into the build.

 

OK these were 'professionally built' but some years ago - so out of guarantee!

[hayfield]

14 hours ago, Crosland said:

 

I've done the opposite. Sold a Portescap and gearbox for more than I paid for the original lot of motor and Perseverance chassis kit

 

Done the same but now regretted it, I have a 94xx built to P4 gauge with a RG4 n it and a spare boxed RG4

 

Recently I bought a coreless motor from Chris at High Level and whilst their gearboxes are not quite up to those used by the Portaescapes they are a very close second, head and shoulders above most other gearboxes/motor mounts available and a fraction of the cost 

[hayfield]

14 hours ago, Tim V said:

To me the definition of a 'professionally built' model would be one where the builder built it once, built it right, and didn't expect to see it back for repair under guarantee. That way the minimum of time put into the build.

 

OK these were 'professionally built' but some years ago - so out of guarantee!

 

 

I think there are many different ideas on the word professional within the model world, and as I said the second one stated that the model had been built for him to a high standard. On the other hand as you have mentioned just because you paid someone to build something for you it does not guarantee it has been built to a high standard. I have known a few modellers building something for a friend to a very high standard for free.  Perhaps built to a high standard may be a better statement, but then what qualifies as a high standard is also open to debate.

 

All I can say is I was lucky enough to buy two locos to my mind extremely well built at very competitive prices, especially as I got an unused additional motor with one of them 

Edited October 21, 2019 by hayfield