Sand and Gravel wagons in the Victorian period

[Lacathedrale]

So as a complete coincidence, two stations of interest to me, New Cross (LBSCR) and Central Croydon both have 'sand and gravel pits' adjacent. The former hosts one on a kickback by Cold Blow crossing which forms access to a gravel pit alongside the main loco sheds alongside a the Old Kent Road spur, see here: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18.11999999999999&lat=51.4787&lon=-0.0443&layers=168&b=1

 

Central Croydon was gone by 1890, but the tangent of track from the brighton mainline crossed a larged open space with another gravel pit, access to which was via a headshunt right towards the station area - see here https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.631666666666668&lat=51.3732&lon=-0.0965&layers=168&b=1 although it is likely this wasn't concurrent with the station, being absent from the 1868 map while the station was in situ and in evidence in the 1894-5 map linked previous (it was situation where 'Town Hall' is written).

 

Is it as simple as company and private owner wagons being filled up? Would those strange 'garden shed' wagons have been required? Would it have been a mix?

[Aire Head]

29 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

So as a complete coincidence, two stations of interest to me, New Cross (LBSCR) and Central Croydon both have 'sand and gravel pits' adjacent. The former hosts one on a kickback by Cold Blow crossing which forms access to a gravel pit alongside the main loco sheds alongside a the Old Kent Road spur, see here: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18.11999999999999&lat=51.4787&lon=-0.0443&layers=168&b=1

 

Central Croydon was gone by 1890, but the tangent of track from the brighton mainline crossed a larged open space with another gravel pit, access to which was via a headshunt right towards the station area - see here https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.631666666666668&lat=51.3732&lon=-0.0965&layers=168&b=1 although it is likely this wasn't concurrent with the station, being absent from the 1868 map while the station was in situ and in evidence in the 1894-5 map linked previous (it was situation where 'Town Hall' is written).

 

Is it as simple as company and private owner wagons being filled up? Would those strange 'garden shed' wagons have been required? Would it have been a mix?

I assume by the 'garden shed' wagons you mean the ones often seen with pealed roofs? These are usually Salt wagons.

 

Sand and Gravel would typically be carried on low sided open wagons, usually 3/5 planks due to it having a higher density than coal.

[Lacathedrale]

Yes indeed - I see the same designs for 'loco sand' so I wondered if that was the standard method for transporting - as you said it's higher density and I can't imagine it would be all that fun to move around while it's wet either.

[Aire Head]

It is possible however the load could also be sheeted over using a tarpaulin.

 

Also loco sand would be wanted to be kept dry more than building sand and it's needs to be able to be discharged from the loco which it won't do while wet. Whereas building sand this is less important.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Aire Head

[phil_sutters]

14 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

It is possible however the load could also be sheeted over using a tarpaulin.

 

Also loco sand would be wanted to be kept dry more than building sand and it's needs to be able to be discharged from the loco which it won't do while wet. Whereas building sand this is less important.

My understanding is that loco sand was dried in furnaces at loco depots. There is one shown on the Bath Green Park shed plan, for example.

[Steamport Southport]

There is still a sand dryer at Didcot.

 

Salt wagons were actually vans and would carry packaged table salt. Loose salt for industry was carried in open wagons.

 

Here's a normal van being loaded with wagons behind.

 

https://middlewichdiary.com/2012/02/loading-salt-at-seddons-brook-lane.html

 

But the GER and LNER did have smaller versions that carried Loco Sand. Never seen any from other railways.

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Wagon Kit Pages/GER Loco Sand Wagon.html

 

I would expect them just to use three to five plank wagons until they built the steel sand wagons.

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brsand/h2E81EF2C#h2e58e025

 

 

Jason

[Lacathedrale]

Nice! If it's just a case of having some wagons with tarps over them for building sand/gravel, I'm totally happy with that! Thank you, all.

[Aire Head]

Most loads travelled under a tarp, a kit of photographs showing loads are usually for advertising or demonstrating how it should be done.

 

When in transit it was generally sheeted over which is good for modelling purposes!

[Steamport Southport]

I don't think sand would be tarpaulined. If so the BR Sand wagon would have had a sheet rail or hood fitted like the China Clay wagons.

 

The only things that got tarped was things that were vulnerable to the elements.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Fat Controller]

2 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I don't think sand would be tarpaulined. If so the BR Sand wagon would have had a sheet rail or hood fitted like the China Clay wagons.

 

The only things that got tarped was things that were vulnerable to the elements.

 

 

 

 

Jason

The BR Sand wagon did have sheeting cleats fitted to the sides and ends; how often these were used is another matter.

[Aire Head]

16 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I don't think sand would be tarpaulined. If so the BR Sand wagon would have had a sheet rail or hood fitted like the China Clay wagons.

 

The only things that got tarped was things that were vulnerable to the elements.

 

 

 

 

Jason

Perhaps "generally" was the wrong phrase but given sands capacity to soak up water protection from the elements would sense in order to stop the wagon becoming over loaded. Or alternatively on a very dry day to stop the load from blowing away!

[Nick Holliday]

The LBSCR used a very old loco tender to carry sand from the pit at Fittleworth to Brighton, presumably for engine sanding.

The gravel pits may have been either for ballasting purposes, or to provide material for making concrete.

I wonder if the GER loco sand trucks were to distribute dry sand from larger depots with dryers to the various smaller sub-sheds scattered throughout their system?

[doilum]

5 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

The LBSCR used a very old loco tender to carry sand from the pit at Fittleworth to Brighton, presumably for engine sanding.

The gravel pits may have been either for ballasting purposes, or to provide material for making concrete.

I wonder if the GER loco sand trucks were to distribute dry sand from larger depots with dryers to the various smaller sub-sheds scattered throughout their system?

Can gravel be used as ballast? By its water bourne formation, gravel is perfectly smooth, ideal for concrete. I understood that ballast is angular allowing individual pieces to interlock.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, doilum said:

Can gravel be used as ballast? By its water bourne formation, gravel is perfectly smooth, ideal for concrete. I understood that ballast is angular allowing individual pieces to interlock.

Some of the railways in Southern England, having no access to quarried hard stone, used shingle from places like Dungeness.  When they amlagamated at Group, they got access to the quarry at Meldon, but in most instances, they simply tipped this on top of the shingle. Only when the 'Classic' routes through Kent were upgraded prior to the opening of the Channel Tunnel was the last shingle ballast removed.

[Lacathedrale]

I think I've heard of the SER specifically using shingle - your post has joined up the dots @Fat Controller , thank you.

 

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

I think I've heard of the SER specifically using shingle - your post has joined up the dots @Fat Controller , thank you.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

I think I've heard of the SER specifically using shingle - your post has joined up the dots @Fat Controller , thank you.

 

They were a bunch of cheapskates; during the renewals I mentioned, one of the teams removing the old material discovered a length of the original track, buried in a mixture of loco ash and shingle.-- their predeccssors were too idle to remove it