The Architecture The Railways Built - Series 4 coming early 2023 on Yesterday

[Pacific231G]

I enjoyed the first programme in the new series.  I was fascinated by the Forth Bridge "botheys". It hadn't occurred to me that there would have been such things on the bridge but it makes perfect sense given that men were working on it in all weathers. I've long been amused by the "painting the Forth Bridge" thing  which I was told as a child ever since I twigged that. for such a specialist task, of course you'd employ the right number of painters to make it a continuing cycle. 

On the number of workers who died building it, "Caisson sickness" apart I did wonder how that would have compared with the fatal accident rate in the shipyards with similar methods and where of course, a lot of rivetting etc. was also done at height.

 

I disagree with Tim about the Euston Arch but he's perfectly entitled to his view . I still think it was an act of vandalism and, given its position, unnecessary.  Despite Pugin, I think it was only ugly because it was so soot blackened.  Still, the reaction to its destruction saved a lot of other, perhaps worthier, buildings throughout Britain, rather as the reaction to the destruction of Les Halles in Paris led to the saving of Covent Market.   

 

Something I did notice in the old photo of  Goathland was the lack of trap points or scotch blocks on the lines to the yards on both sides. The other thing was, if the token was delivered to the driver in a pouch, how could he be sure that it was the right one? I'm sure the driver was supposed to inspect it but how well observed was that? 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Pacific231G

[Chris116]

The pouches had a hole in so that the token could be checked. On most railways the tokens for different sections were painted different colours and had different shape cutouts so that in the dark the driver and fireman only had to feel the shape to know they had the right token. Only a fool does not check a token as the wrong one is a death warrant.

[MarkC]

14 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

 

 

Something I did notice in the old photo of  Goathland was the lack of trap points or scotch blocks on the lines to the yards on both sides

There are traps to be seen in this photo of Goathland

https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20141204193954im_/http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/ne-stead-dmu-goathland.jpg

 

A similar arrangement, which did have a trap on each of the roads coming off the first point in the yard although this photo isn't really clear - I'll see if I can find a better one - was to be found at Scalby. They worked in conjunction with the point off the main line/

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvJ1LG0Pb58qqLtk6DmA-ksYdfF-8ccMk_MY1wQxEgZA&s

[Pacific231G]

11 minutes ago, MarkC said:

There are traps to be seen in this photo of Goathland

https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20141204193954im_/http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/ne-stead-dmu-goathland.jpg

 

A similar arrangement, which did have a trap on each of the roads coming off the first point in the yard although this photo isn't really clear - I'll see if I can find a better one - was to be found at Scalby. They worked in conjunction with the point off the main line/

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvJ1LG0Pb58qqLtk6DmA-ksYdfF-8ccMk_MY1wQxEgZA&s

I'll check the recording again but those traps definitely weren't there in the much older (possibly Edwardian or earlier but almost certainly pre-grouping) photo of Goathland that appeared in the programme so I did wonder when they became mandatory. The layout was also very different with a direct line from the goods shed via a crossing to the opposite running line (so a trailing connection from both sides) 

[MarkC]

1 minute ago, Pacific231G said:

I'll check the recording again but those traps definitely weren't there in the much older (possibly Edwardian or earlier but almost certainly pre-grouping) photo of Goathland that appeared in the programme so I did wonder when they became mandatory. The layout was also very different with a direct line from the goods shed via a crossing to the opposite running line (so a trailing connection from both sides) 

I'm sure that a signalling specialist will be along to answer that query - obviously I haven't seen the show yet - although it'll have been recorded for me...

 

That's a very interesting question - when indeed?

 

Mark

[papagolfjuliet]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

I'll check the recording again but those traps definitely weren't there in the much older (possibly Edwardian or earlier but almost certainly pre-grouping) photo of Goathland that appeared in the programme so I did wonder when they became mandatory. The layout was also very different with a direct line from the goods shed via a crossing to the opposite running line (so a trailing connection from both sides) 

 

Both yards are or were partially inclined, necessitating traps - the down yard has a ramp up to the coal dock, while IIRC the up yard was so graded as to allow wagons to roll into the whin cracker siding behind the tank house.  The Stead photo linked to above clearly shows the five different gradients which prevailed in different parts of the station, with the goods shed road being the only one entirely on the level.

Edited March 4, 2023 by papagolfjuliet

[D9020 Nimbus]

19 hours ago, Chris116 said:

The pouches had a hole in so that the token could be checked. On most railways the tokens for different sections were painted different colours and had different shape cutouts so that in the dark the driver and fireman only had to feel the shape to know they had the right token. Only a fool does not check a token as the wrong one is a death warrant.

But this did happen—check out any description of the Abermule accident: it makes you wonder how often a token has been accepted unchecked, only it was the right one, unlike at Abermule.

 

Nevertheless Abermule was the only accident involving passenger trains on a line protected by the token system. A couple of years earlier, also on the Cambrian, there was a head-on collision between two goods trains at Parkhall where it turned out that both trains had the correct token. How it happened was never fully determined.

[ardbealach]

I seem to recall somewhere in the back of my mind of a story of a signalman lad somewhere who had all the tokens out of the machine and was polishing them all up with brasso.   (Alisdair)

[Chris116]

2 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

But this did happen—check out any description of the Abermule accident: it makes you wonder how often a token has been accepted unchecked, only it was the right one, unlike at Abermule.

 

Nevertheless Abermule was the only accident involving passenger trains on a line protected by the token system. A couple of years earlier, also on the Cambrian, there was a head-on collision between two goods trains at Parkhall where it turned out that both trains had the correct token. How it happened was never fully determined.

Everything you say is right but it does not take away from the fact that you have to be a fool not to check the token when you are given it. 

[Pacific231G]

3 hours ago, Chris116 said:

Everything you say is right but it does not take away from the fact that you have to be a fool not to check the token when you are given it. 

That's true but people who do the same thing every day and every day every thing is just the same as usual get complacent or, in a more sinister but well known phenomenon, simply become blind to an error that should be staring them in the face even when they're being diligent.

I knew of a very experienced driver on a heritage railway that used token machines- I won't say which one-  passing though a section without a token and OK he was off the footplate for a year (he was also AFAIR the preservaton society's chair)  I don't know how it happened but it wasn't intentional, I think he let himself get distracted and just forgot to take the token (it was an ummanned crossing without signals) and of course realised he didn't have it when he got to the terminus. The railway was on a single train operation that day so notihng bad happened but I can easily conceive of someone checking a token but simply not seeing tht it was the wrong one. This may seem very improbable but It's actually a very well known phenomenon known as expectation bias. It is all too familiar to the likes of the AAIB and the NTSB

https://www.skybrary.aero/articles/flight-crew-expectation-bias

It is something I've experienced myself.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Pacific231G

[Edwin_m]

There's always the possibility of human error and that's why there should be additional safeguards, either checks by other people or (much preferred these days) automatic systems that monitor and intervene where necessary.  At Abermule there were three or four other mistakes made that led to the driver being given back the same token they had just surrendered.  We don't know how many times one or more of those mistakes were made at other times and places, but of these Abermule was one of only a handful resulting in a collision.  As for engineered safeguards, locking of the starter signal until a token was released for that direction would have prevented it.  

[D9020 Nimbus]

According to Adrian Vaughan (Obstruction Danger, p. 60), there was an incident at a junction of two single lines "somewhere in the north of England" where the signalman, who had withdrawn two tokens (from different machines) gave the wrong token to the driver of a diesel railcar. The driver drove away without checking.

The signalman realised what he'd done, so thinking to rectify his error, drove to the next signal box with the correct token. Meanwhile, the driver had belatedly checked his token and, thinking to rectify the error, reversed his train back to the junction, but there was no signalman, only the other train.

Eventually the signalman returned, gave the correct tokens to both drivers, and the incident was resolved. Except that it wasn't, since one of the passengers reported what had happened …

[dagrizz]

Terrific programme tonight.

 

Me and SWMBO are intending a day trip to Manchester in the summer, me to do some trainspotting at those three viaducts, she to walk the garden viaduct and do some plant spotting. Win-win.

 

Graham 

[melmerby]

39 minutes ago, dagrizz said:

Terrific programme tonight.

 

Me and SWMBO are intending a day trip to Manchester in the summer, me to do some trainspotting at those three viaducts, she to walk the garden viaduct and do some plant spotting. Win-win.

 

Graham 

I'm not so sure the designations of the railways responsible for the various viaducts at Castlefield was correct.

The two most northerly were the Cheshire Lines and the most southerly was the MSJ&A.

I don't recall reading the Midland having it's own line there, although it was part of the Cheshire Lines Committee

 

The Great Northern Deansgate Goods was off a spur from the Cheshire lines route to Manchester Central.

(You can often see the warehouse in the background out of the windows during BBC1's "Morning Live")

Edited March 7, 2023 by melmerby

[melmerby]

50 minutes ago, dagrizz said:

she to walk the garden viaduct and do some plant spotting

Don't forget you will need to book.

[Ian Hargrave]

I walked the High Line in NYC just over 3 years ago. Tim’s excellent programme has given me a zest for walking Manchester’s own version.Absolutely fascinating.I can remember summer Saturday extras from South Wales in the 1950’s with destination Manchester Mayfield.

[Ian Hargrave]

Another great programme this week. As a schoolboy travelling overnight from Switzerland an early morning crossing from Boulogne was rough and caused me the only bout of seasickness I have ever suffered. I was happy to disembark at Folkestone Harbour ( the station now lovingly restored) and board the boat train which was hauled and propelled up the incline by a collection of antique SR tanks to the junction where a waiting Bulleid was ready to take us onward to Victoria…..1956.

[eastwestdivide]

3 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Another great programme this week. As a schoolboy travelling overnight from Switzerland an early morning crossing from Boulogne was rough and caused me the only bout of seasickness I have ever suffered. I was happy to disembark at Folkestone Harbour ( the station now lovingly restored) and board the boat train which was hauled and propelled up the incline by a collection of antique SR tanks to the junction where a waiting Bulleid was ready to take us onward to Victoria…..1956.

Only time I ever properly used Folkestone Harbour was coming back from France about 1990-odd, and that was just the harbour, not the rail side, as we had to get across to Central for a domestic train to elsewhere in Kent rather than the boat train to London.

The sickness only happened later due to dodgy sausage and chips on the boat (I fancied something less French after a couple of weeks there!). We'd gone out via the hover from Dover, on which my partner felt queasy, but I was fine. 

Oh, and also visited briefly on a railtour in 1984, "Southern Mariner" 33+TC all the way round the coast from Portsmouth-Dover-Ramsgate-N Kent. (see https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/80s/840519de.htm)

 

[PeterStiles]

The Chunnel episode has been my favourite so far, less ogling corbels and cornices. seeing Mission Control was top-notch exciting our house, even the missus was rapt, reminiscing over the anniversary we took in Brussels...

Good episode. Ta, Tim.

[RJS1977]

Seeing the disused International part of Ashford station made me think - if Eurostar decide not to call at Ashford in future, it would be an ideal location for AIMREC!

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder what happened to them in the Tunnel 0 they got part way and that seemed to be that then they were in the ROC  back in Folkestone - so had r fardid they go in the Service Tunnel?   But admittedly they did not show mile after mile of exactly the same thing - it rapidly gets very boring when uyou have to walk a km or so through it once the initial excitement has worn off!  

 

Rather worrying to see that the ROC has, in effect, been shfted to the French end as Folkestone used to be the principal site with Frethun as the reserve site and all the ops support and planning staff were also based in the ROC building at the Folkestone end so i wonder if they too have been moved to France?   But interesting stuff all the same and seeing 9043 on the panel brought back memories although I never visited the ROC  but Lille was even more interesting as it control;s the entire LGV right the way from the outskirts of Paris to the Tunnel boundary and Belgian border.

 

Going back to single lines the Cambrian did not use toj ken machines but used Tyers tablet nax chines - parkhall wasa very odd incident where the truth never came out but was inevitably down to misuse of the system and machines.  Abermule was simply bad management and sloppiness with fatal results.

 

Y Token incidents happened well into the 1960s to my knowledge although diesels prevented the use if a loco firebox to destroy evidence.   Tokens being aluminium don't last long in the firebox and getting rid of an unchecked one that way was a known 'nothing to do with me mate' dodge if Enginemen had taken the wrong token without checking it.

 

Interestingly c.1967 there was almost a replay of Abermule but fortunately without the collision risk as it only involved one train.  Instead of being given the new token for the section in advance the token for the section in rear was handed back to the Driver due to a misunderstanding between the Signalman and a Porter handling the token on his behalf and the Driver didn't check it.  But when teh token was handed to teh Signalman at the opposite end of teh section it wouldn't fit the instrument and the whole  srry tale came to light.  An Inquiry followed by various disciplinarye cases followed by nobody was dismissed or even reduced in grade.  The station involved remains open but teh section where the incident hap[pened has long been closed

[Edwin_m]

Seeing the ROC at Ashford not in use might only have been a tempory control from France.  Presumably they need to use it from time to time to keep the staff current.  They may even have scheduled a swap so Tim's visit could be confined to British territory.  

 

Interesting that the re-used section of 1974 tunnel only appeared to be a few tens of metres long, although I think there was another set of cast iron segments visible in the distance at one point.  If that's all there is then I'd have thought it would have been easier to just get rid of it rather than trying to re-use.  

[AMJ]

The 1880's channel tunnel had a compressed air powered loco made by Fowlers in Leeds to assist with the construction and those used on the UK side for the "final" tunnels were Hunslet built.

 

Another connection with Leeds locomotive building industry is an episode later in the series including a visit to the Middleton Railway - see Brookes No 1 in the title sequence.

[melmerby]

12 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Rather worrying to see that the ROC has, in effect, been shfted to the French end

 

11 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

Seeing the ROC at Ashford not in use might only have been a tempory control from France.

I thought they said they alternated between the two and staff were always available should they need to take control from the other side (either way) if necessary.

[Ian Hargrave]

Tim keeps up the pace..or even perhaps raises his game…at London Bridge and Knaresborough with last night’s transmission.I do appreciate his involvement with architects and historians….particularly the gent restoring Findlater’s Corner. My only contact with the profession is with one who works in a similar field…that of restoring old buildings. Of architecture in general…and he was in conversation with me in Barcelona with its showpiece Gaudi…is a question I was asked..”Does it please you? “ Tim and his infectious enthusiasm and presentation certainly does that.