If Colonel Stephens was around today; what rolling stock would he use on his light railways?

[Hesperus]

If somebody kept the S&MLR going into the 60s they may have been tempted to buy the ex Cambrian line to Oswestry and Gobowen in order to keep it as a through line and serve somewhere bigger than a village.

[Nearholmer]

Having explored the area, and tried to visit all the places that the S&M served, it is no wonder that it was a ‘graveyard of railway companies’ for 100+ years, because it is very, very quiet, even now. Not an area that could support a railway, methinks.

 

TBH, I can’t think of a plausible traffic-source for any of the original lines that closed, and tend to imagine his spiritual successor running the odd ex-national network line, or maybe ex-military line, ones with good freight customers, so that the ‘social service’ and ‘touristique’ services can hinge around that.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Zomboid]

I'd say that heritage railways are pretty much the modern successor to Col Stephens.

 

The American Shortlines are probably another example, often using elderly ex class 1 traction to interchange freight with the main network. Some of them run one train a week, others operate every day, but being almost exclusively freight they can get away with running at 15mph on very dodgy track. I believe a few have a tourist passenger operation as well.

[whart57]

Of course there are sound economic and operational reasons why none of the Colonel Stephens railways have survived except as heritage railways. However this is a model railway forum, and we can bend history a bit here.

 

My intention was to provide a means of building a German style light railway in a British context. Hence the suggestion of the Shropshire and Montgomeryshire and the idea of having four wheel railbuses provided with buffers and drawgear like the Eastern Region ones so they could drag the odd goods vehicle with them.

 

To then go off into flights of fantasy regarding operational interest I'd suggest the line had some unpowered trailer cars which were attached to a morning train into Shrewsbury and an afternoon train back to fulfil a schools contract and suggest that one of the former MoD stores sites became a fuel depot distributing heating oil and red diesel to villages and farms between Shrewsbury and Welshpool. A second-hand O3 would be needed two or three times a week for the limited freight traffic. (In reality the S&M terminus at Shrewsbury Abbey was an oil depot for many years)

 

To really go off to the most tenuous justifications there is also the sugar beet traffic in the autumn

 

Might make for an interesting layout.

 

 

[johnofwessex]

The one that did survive was The Derwent Valley Light Railway

 

When it stopped hiring loco's from BR it had two 03's & another small shunter (Fowler?) and for a while ran a steam service with Joem.

 

I understand that 03's were used to haul passenger trains to the Pressed Steel plant at Swindon on the remains of The Highworth branch.

 

The end of 'Speedlink' though would have seen an end to much freight unless it was in 'trainloads' 

 

I like the idea of MK1 suburbans though - or a 120/121?

[whart57]

To be pedantic, the Derwent Valley was never part of the Stephens group.

[D9020 Nimbus]

The DVLR bought two 04s, not 03s — though it had hired 03s from BR previously. One of the 04s was subsequently replaced by an industrial diesel.

[phil-b259]

7 minutes ago, whart57 said:

To be pedantic, the Derwent Valley was never part of the Stephens group.

 

But its still the closest thing we have to use as our basis for 'what might have been'

 

 

However the key problem with the whole premise of the thread is it ignores the way the wider world has changed!

 

Its no good trying to imagine a situation where the Colonels railways might have remained a going concern in any form without also imagining that the rise of private motoring never happened!

 

And when I say 'never happened' that doesn't just mean in the UK - there is no way the UK would have just sat there and ignored it as such trends swept across Europe giving them a clear economic advantage!

 

Also if you DO chose to go along with private motoring effectively only being available to the rich, then there are enormous implications for society at large - would the Beeching cuts have ever been necessary, would the economy have developed the way that it did when people were still forced to live close to work or public transport arteries due to the lack of freedoms private motoring presented. Would we have even bothered with a motorway network etc...

 

Given the writing was on the wall from the mid 1930s as motor buses and motor lorries ate into the meagre traffic on offer, then the way mass car ownership became a real possibility in the 1960s, its just frankly not tenable to imagine that the Colonels lines would still be around today.

[whart57]

I've spent a modelling lifetime thinking up "what if" scenarios for layouts and they always have big gaps in their credibility. The best ones I have come up with are either set a long time ago, such as the London and Surrey Railway scenario described in the Creating a Believable Freelance Pre-Group Company  thread, or rely on general ignorance of the subject such as Maenamburi, my terminus of Thailand's (non existent) South Eastern Line. Of course there is the fact of growing private car ownership to consider in the real world.

 

In the model world however the impact of that can be minimised. We can envision a passenger service being kept sort of viable by a County Council schools contract. We can envision a fuel depot serving rural locations over narrow lanes providing enough freight to keep the lines open. I worked in Shropshire schools in the 1970s and every two bit bus operator had a schools contract to keep their heads above water. And west of Shrewsbury the minor roads were not ones to take an articulated fuel tanker down.

 

And should the line somehow survive into the 21st century then Green issues become more important. I like the idea of a hydrogen powered LINT unit for the modern day, bought with a grant from central government's "green" cash pile. Which I read is about to get a couple of billion tossed its way by Rishi Sunak.

 

There are less believable scenarios for about half the GWR branch models I've read about.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Should have highlighted this before ........

 

There are still a number of "Stephenesque" bits of railway in France, and one of the principal companies that was involved historically in promoting and operating them is still going, although now mainly focused on building, repurposing and supplying motive power, including for independent railway overseas.

 

This link hopefully takes you deep into their fascinating website to the page showing the Class 20s that they had at one period for hauling timber trains. https://www.cfd.fr/machines/locomotive-class-20

 

The situation in France is complicated, because there are some always-independent lines, and some SNCF branches that are now maintained and operated by independent companies, while I think SNCF still owns the right-of-way, and some where the independent is merely acting as a TOC/FOC. It is harder to fully close a railway in France than it is here, so lines sometimes rest out of use for years, before being given a very basic "once over" and being used again, while others get used on a purely seasonal basis.

 

In short, there are "Derwent Valleys" still in being on the other side of the channel. And one might like CF Provence to the County Donegal with better weather - its an excellent, excellent ride. Last time we went, we decided to travel back in the railcar trailer, an ancient thing, which was so uncomfortable that we transferred to the railcar as soon as we could.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Nearholmer

[corneliuslundie]

The S&M might have been a lot more viable for a few years if one of the depots had become an industrial estate as happened at Marchwiel. But even there the freight traffic didn't outlast the closure of the gasworks, and while the industrial estate is still active (as is the prison on the site) and currently producing vaccines, the industrial estate businesses never really used the railway much.

I think it is much more likely that any remaining lines would be like American short lines with a staple industrial traffic in full train loads. Of course one train a week on a Thursday doesn't make a very good exhibition layout! Unfortunately, though, the legal setup in the UK seems to make it almost impossible for short lines to be created from closed branches. The nearest example I can think of is Mendip Rail.

Although it has not (yet) happened one possibility might be a line in a National Park to serve tourists and reduce road traffic, perhaps a partnership between the Park and a private railway.

Jonathan

[The Lurker]

Mention of the schools contracts made me think of the Romney Hythe & Dymchurch which had (has?) contracts to run services for the local schools - they acquired a diesel to do so.

 

There you have a model of a light railway, albeit narrow gauge, that has survived, largely as a tourist destination, but supplemented by the schools traffic.

 

Again it was privately promoted and built - but the difference to the Colonel Stephens lines for the most part is that it was set up and run as a tourist attraction; serving the community came second in the purpose of the line. 

[Fenman]

58 minutes ago, whart57 said:

I've spent a modelling lifetime thinking up "what if" scenarios for layouts and they always have big gaps in their credibility. The best ones I have come up with are either set a long time ago, such as the London and Surrey Railway scenario described in the Creating a Believable Freelance Pre-Group Company  thread, or rely on general ignorance of the subject such as Maenamburi, my terminus of Thailand's (non existent) South Eastern Line. Of course there is the fact of growing private car ownership to consider in the real world.

 

In the model world however the impact of that can be minimised. We can envision a passenger service being kept sort of viable by a County Council schools contract. We can envision a fuel depot serving rural locations over narrow lanes providing enough freight to keep the lines open. I worked in Shropshire schools in the 1970s and every two bit bus operator had a schools contract to keep their heads above water. And west of Shrewsbury the minor roads were not ones to take an articulated fuel tanker down.

 

And should the line somehow survive into the 21st century then Green issues become more important. I like the idea of a hydrogen powered LINT unit for the modern day, bought with a grant from central government's "green" cash pile. Which I read is about to get a couple of billion tossed its way by Rishi Sunak.

 

There are less believable scenarios for about half the GWR branch models I've read about.

 

 

I toyed with a scenario for the M&GN system across Norfolk. It survived Grouping as an independent company, since it was owned 50:50 by companies that were split between the LMS and LNER. For some years they then shared operations, before the LMS deciding out of the blue in the 1930s effectively to gift their 50% to LNER. From that moment I think it was doomed, only WW2 extending its life a little.

 

But suppose instead the two owners had done a deal with the county council? Some of the excessive or hopeless bits might well have been cut anyway (who needed yet another route serving thinly-populated territory between Norwich and Yarmouth? And the Mundesley branch was pretty certain to close). But an interurban passenger service Norwich-Fakenham-Lynn-Peterborough might have been viable (even today there are express double-deckers at least every hour operating exactly that route -- but clogging up Norfolk's hopeless road system and vulnerable to delays). The Norwich-Birmingham railway route was shifted from M&GN lines to a more circuitous ex-GER route, but remains today. So there may have been enough traffic, maybe.

 

It's the best I could come up with.

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

While we're playing Fantasy Railway League, can I put mine on the field?

 

Two sets of facts:

 

- c1900 there was a firm proposal, draft LRO etc, for a Cuckmere Valley LR in East Sussex. Down the valley from Berwick to near Cuckmere Haven, and up a side valley to take coal to a big pumping station near Westdean.

 

- there was a significant shingle-extraction operation at Cuckmere Haven from the 1930s-1960s, with a long 2ft gauge railway to the main road at Exceat Bridge, pretty much where the above line was projected to run.

 

Now the fantasy bit:

 

- The LR got built;

 

- A cement works was established near Exceat Bridge (non ever was, because of poor access, which is good really, because it has allowed the valley to become an AONB);

 

- coal in, cement and shingle out keep the LR going quite nicely, with a vestigial passenger service too;

 

- BR takes over, shuts the passenger service, and really wants to close the line, so the cement company takes the line into their ownership in 1965, running it as a long siding;

 

-  c1975 enterprising and railway-enthusiast minded manager of transport at the cement company is aware of railway preservation and puts together a tri-partite deal with some preservationists and ESCC to run a "social railway" in the week, and steam specials at the weekend (cue massive arguments with NBC, and with some 'anti' preservationists who feel it will syphon resources from the Bluebell and KESR);

 

- c1990, cement works closes, but the LR continues as a standalone operation, things looking very dicey until the area is designated a National Park in 2010, at which point plenty of subsidies flow in.

 

Best date to model this fantasy? c1980, I think, so as to include a representation of all the rusty old hulks that characterised preserved railways then, maybe a couple of Class 14 for the cement trains, an Austerity and some Mk1 suburbans for the "heritage train", and either an ex-GWR railcar (the KESR was using one then), or a 4W railbus for the "social railway", with a Class 14 and coaches being used when that breaks down.

 

Since I will never build this model, the idea is free to a good home.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Nearholmer

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

I've spent a modelling lifetime thinking up "what if" scenarios for layouts and they always have big gaps in their credibility. The best ones I have come up with are either set a long time ago, such as the London and Surrey Railway scenario described in the Creating a Believable Freelance Pre-Group Company  thread, or rely on general ignorance of the subject such as Maenamburi, my terminus of Thailand's (non existent) South Eastern Line. Of course there is the fact of growing private car ownership to consider in the real world.

 

In the model world however the impact of that can be minimised. We can envision a passenger service being kept sort of viable by a County Council schools contract. We can envision a fuel depot serving rural locations over narrow lanes providing enough freight to keep the lines open. I worked in Shropshire schools in the 1970s and every two bit bus operator had a schools contract to keep their heads above water. And west of Shrewsbury the minor roads were not ones to take an articulated fuel tanker down.

 

And should the line somehow survive into the 21st century then Green issues become more important. I like the idea of a hydrogen powered LINT unit for the modern day, bought with a grant from central government's "green" cash pile. Which I read is about to get a couple of billion tossed its way by Rishi Sunak.

 

There are less believable scenarios for about half the GWR branch models I've read about.

 

 

 

While it is of course you prerogative to draw up scenarios as you which - I simply don't see the growth of motor transport can be minimalised to the extent that it would keep a Colonel Stephens line in business (in the manor you want*) up to the present day. Even scenarios which massively alter the present, like say a scenario in which WW2 hadn't happened because Hitler died in WW1 are more believable than the rise of the motor vehicle being curtailed in the way that would be needed to satisfy your premise.

 

Consequently IF any of the Colonels lines survived then they would fall into one or more of the following categories:-

As a freight only line to access a specific industrial plant.

As a seasonal Heritage / Tourist Railway

As part of the national network like the Plymouth - Gunslake line.

 

One thing is most determinately true is that the ORR would demand the infrastructure and stock be kept in good condition! the days ramshackle operations being tolerated is well and truly over as some Heritage railways have found out to their cost in recent years!

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, The Lurker said:

Mention of the schools contracts made me think of the Romney Hythe & Dymchurch which had (has?) contracts to run services for the local schools - they acquired a diesel to do so.

 

 

They do - but the school contract was able to be done because the line was already there as a seasonal tourist attraction in the first place!

 

Its a very different situation from saying a commercially operated railway is retained because of school traffic! Beer in mind cases like the Bridport and Alston lines where BR was initially denied closure due to the condition of local roads - But given the dominance of the motor car the decision was taken that road improvements would be a better destination for the cash and the railways shut.

 

Any Colonel Stephens (or other light railway) would have suffered a similar fate.

 

Yes its true that beginning in the 1990s it became politically much harder to shut down lines plus we have woken up to the environmental damage motor vehicles do. However that still leaves around 50 years (or longer when you remember that rural railways were hemeroging passengers and light goods to motor transport well before WW2 broke out) for your light railway to fend off motor transport and a hostile Government - and I simply cannot see it would have been possible.

 

The RHDR schools contract was IIRC a mid 1980s invention, a time when attitudes towards railways were starting to change in society and some sections of Government. Before that buses were used to ferry children despite the railway still being operational in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and early 1980s!

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by phil-b259

[whart57]

Anything is possible in the model railway world, but aside from that, one reason for picking the S&M is that it was run as an MoD line until 1960. In the imaginary scenario that could be extended to 1970 or so, which would be around the time those 4 wheeled railbuses would be available as second hand kit. Along with an 03. It was a place where the roads were awful and there were four ex-MoD sites awaiting re-use but lorry transport would have been very unpopular with the locals. Fanciful yes, but it would make a somewhat different layout.

Edited February 6, 2021 by whart57

[johnofwessex]

It seems to me rather like the Derwent Valley, or at least the last surviving bit that it would survive serving a particular industry - in the DVLR case the Grain Dryers at Dunnington, but it could be a quarry, mine, car plant.whatever- the NCB had significant lengths of line connecting mines to the Main Line.

 

Throw in a worker service - like the one that ran up to Filton, or a tourist service a la DVLR and its 'not impossible' up to the early 80's when wagon load ended and the rules started to change

[Rivercider]

20 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Having explored the area, and tried to visit all the places that the S&M served, it is no wonder that it was a ‘graveyard of railway companies’ for 100+ years, because it is very, very quiet, even now. Not an area that could support a railway, methinks.

 

TBH, I can’t think of a plausible traffic-source for any of the original lines that closed, and tend to imagine his spiritual successor running the odd ex-national network line, or maybe ex-military line, ones with good freight customers, so that the ‘social service’ and ‘touristique’ services can hinge around that.

Perhaps in an alternative version of history the Colonels empire was able to take over the Dartmoor Railway in 1968, running the remaining passenger service from Okehampton, (to Yeoford/Crediton?) while allowing BR access to Meldon Quarry,

 

cheers

[NIK]

Hi,

 

Retired Eurostar coaches with a centre portion removed so as to get round sharp curves, hauled by Class 14 or 09 Diesel locos?.

 

Regards

 

Nick

Edited February 6, 2021 by NIK

[Oldddudders]

When it comes to where lines ran, rather than what might have run on them, I don't think this has been mentioned.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Devon_and_Cornwall_Junction_Light_Railway

 

[Hando]

It's amazing how much happens when you leave your dead thread, end up spending all your time on work, whilst someone resurrects it!

[Hando]

On 05/02/2021 at 17:15, Nearholmer said:

While we're playing Fantasy Railway League, can I put mine on the field?

 

Two sets of facts:

 

- c1900 there was a firm proposal, draft LRO etc, for a Cuckmere Valley LR in East Sussex. Down the valley from Berwick to near Cuckmere Haven, and up a side valley to take coal to a big pumping station near Westdean.

 

- there was a significant shingle-extraction operation at Cuckmere Haven from the 1930s-1960s, with a long 2ft gauge railway to the main road at Exceat Bridge, pretty much where the above line was projected to run.

 

Now the fantasy bit:

 

- The LR got built;

 

- A cement works was established near Exceat Bridge (non ever was, because of poor access, which is good really, because it has allowed the valley to become an AONB);

 

- coal in, cement and shingle out keep the LR going quite nicely, with a vestigial passenger service too;

 

- BR takes over, shuts the passenger service, and really wants to close the line, so the cement company takes the line into their ownership in 1965, running it as a long siding;

 

-  c1975 enterprising and railway-enthusiast minded manager of transport at the cement company is aware of railway preservation and puts together a tri-partite deal with some preservationists and ESCC to run a "social railway" in the week, and steam specials at the weekend (cue massive arguments with NBC, and with some 'anti' preservationists who feel it will syphon resources from the Bluebell and KESR);

 

- c1990, cement works closes, but the LR continues as a standalone operation, things looking very dicey until the area is designated a National Park in 2010, at which point plenty of subsidies flow in.

 

Best date to model this fantasy? c1980, I think, so as to include a representation of all the rusty old hulks that characterised preserved railways then, maybe a couple of Class 14 for the cement trains, an Austerity and some Mk1 suburbans for the "heritage train", and either an ex-GWR railcar (the KESR was using one then), or a 4W railbus for the "social railway", with a Class 14 and coaches being used when that breaks down.

 

Since I will never build this model, the idea is free to a good home.

 

 

Would you mind if I steal that idea?

[Nearholmer]

As I said, free to a good home.

 

Just let us know how it turns out.

[RJS1977]

Whilst not a Stephens Line, the building of Paul Bros maltings at Wallingford in the 1950s kept part of the Wallingford branch open until 1981, long after all other facilities on the line had been withdrawn. Had the points at Cholsey not required replacement, the branch could have remained open until the maltings closed in the early years of this century, by which time Wallingford's population had increased to a level that there started to be some talk of reopening for regular passenger services. Likewise, had the MG factory at Abingdon remained open a few more years, there might have been a case for reopening that line to passengers. I could see a similar 'might have been' acting on Stephens' lines in the same period if suitable industries were available.