Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[97xx]

Not sure my RF ramblings are that interesting but here is the difference between an unsuppressed and suppressed motor.

 

This is the radio frequency interference sent back into the rails under power. The actual levels don't vary that much with motor speed.

 

The screen goes from a frequency of 1MHz on the left (bang in the middle of Medium Wave) to 100MHz on the right (bang in the middle of FM). The Y axis is the magnitude;

 

The green trace is unsuppressed, the yellow suppressed. The 'difference' (although it varies by frequency) is at least 25dBm which is approximately a factor of 20.

 

BTW, the red trace is the background hash generated by the plethora of little 'wall wart' power supplies and LED bulbs...

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by 97xx

[boxbrownie]

8 minutes ago, 97xx said:

I'd expect it to be a pretty similar shape, but superimposed as you say on the AC DCC rails.

I’d thought it would be less TBH as the motor is controlled from the chip so in effect the motor is isolated from the rails.

 

Just a thought.

[stonojnr]

5 hours ago, 97xx said:

Using an RF 'sniffer; I find about a 50% reduction in radiated RF noise with an appropriate suppressor, but as some have said no-one really bothers with or about it these days.

 

With the virtual death of MW listening this has become a background issue, although move a typical cheapo wall wart PSU near to a MW radio and you'll hear lots of noise...

 

If you have a small MW radio, tune if off station and listen to your train.

 

you might think its only a background issue because MW radios arent as common thesedays, but I bet your broadband & wifi signals notices it alot.

[Markwj]

My apt has been fine so far but don’t intend to run it again until after I have taken the capacitor out. I can’t help but think the situation seems worse because of that Hornby programme. All those promises about getting things right and detail detail detail!

I think the will is there but it’s lacking in the execution of the model (and not just the apt). I wonder if there will be another series or follow up programme that would be a laugh!

Just a thought if the capacitor went pop and I removed it assuming no external damage- should the model still be able to run without return to Hornby (who would just put another one in)?

[TRAILRAGE]

Came across these on You Tube. never seen them before but some great footage here,

 

APT Test trains around Lancaster Area - YouTube

 

APT-P - BR's Advanced Passenger Train - YouTube

 

The APT the Advanced Passenger Train - YouTube

 

Cheers Trailrage

 

[Mr_Tilt]

17 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

The article contains the usual nonsense about Fiat purchasing the tilt technology & developing it for themselves.

Why can't the truth be populated as widely?

 

Agggghhhhhhh! I'm SO fed up with correcting the rubbish about 'FIAT buying the APT patents' and NOBODY listens! 

 

They're actually correct, the APT DID change the railway world, but not for the reason they quoted. Alan Wickens 'worn wheel' profiles and 'soft springs, strong dampers' suspension was given out FREE to the whole railway world and they all, apart from the ShinKansen lines, use it, but it's never mentioned. 

[PaulRhB]

12 minutes ago, Mr_Tilt said:

 

Agggghhhhhhh! I'm SO fed up with correcting the rubbish about 'FIAT buying the APT patents' and NOBODY listens! 

 

They're actually correct, the APT DID change the railway world, but not for the reason they quoted. Alan Wickens 'worn wheel' profiles and 'soft springs, strong dampers' suspension was given out FREE to the whole railway world and they all, apart from the ShinKansen lines, use it, but it's never mentioned. 

You need to get someone on the APT group to edit and maintain the Wikipedia site as that’s where they likely pull it from. 
 

[PaulRhB]

12 hours ago, TRAILRAGE said:

Came across these on You Tube. never seen them before but some great footage here,

 

APT Test trains around Lancaster Area - YouTube

 

this one won’t embed 

https://youtu.be/sLkSLc2WcHE

 

12 hours ago, TRAILRAGE said:

 

APT-P - BR's Advanced Passenger Train - YouTube

 

 

12 hours ago, TRAILRAGE said:

The APT the Advanced Passenger Train - YouTube

 

Cheers Trailrage

 

 

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

18 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

You need to get someone on the APT group to edit and maintain the Wikipedia site as that’s where they likely pull it from. 
 

 

Anyone can update a wiki. That is its strength & weakness.

I have removed the statement claiming the tilt technology was sold to Fiat, but I am sure someone will re-add it before long. 

[pwr]

For those who are not as electronically minded but are quite capable of replacing complonents could somebody please state what specification a replacement capacitor should have so I can repalce mine without risk of burning it out.

 

Paul R

[Pete the Elaner]

22 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

this one won’t embed 

https://youtu.be/sLkSLc2WcHE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The second of those is quite interesting - the one with the footage from inside the coach.

Having got used to travelling by Pendolino, I was surprised to see quite how far the APT tilted. I knew it was full compensation but I didn't realise quite how far it tilted.

With acknowledgement to the fact that this caused motion sickness, I wondered why it was not experienced by the test crew?

I believe that it is something you get used to fairly quickly, but not quickly enough to feel comfortable on your first journey.

[PaulRhB]

42 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Anyone can update a wiki. That is its strength & weakness.

I have removed the statement claiming the tilt technology was sold to Fiat, but I am sure someone will re-add it before long. 

That’s why I suggested one of the APT group take it on to watch it. It would be better if some keeps adding it back to add a sentence saying;

 

‘Despite rumours of the tilt technology being sold to FIAT, Kit Spackman, (Tilt Development Engineer and known as ‘Mr Tilt’ within the team), has confirmed this is inaccurate. Reference http://www.apt-e.org/kit/kit.htm ‘

Edited February 15, 2022 by PaulRhB

[PaulRhB]

37 minutes ago, pwr said:

For those who are not as electronically minded but are quite capable of replacing complonents could somebody please state what specification a replacement capacitor should have so I can repalce mine without risk of burning it out.

 

Paul R

The ones installed are the usual value, marked 104, the value in uF is explained in detail a page or so back, so we can only assume they are faulty as they are the same spec as other models. 

[97xx]

46 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

The ones installed are the usual value, marked 104, the value in uF is explained in detail a page or so back, so we can only assume they are faulty as they are the same spec as other models. 

 

Yes 104 is the value in picoFarads, which are million billionths of a Farad (being far too large for most use). 

 

104 means 10 and 4 zeros = 10 0000 = 100,000pF = 100nF = 0.1µF.

 

What is MISSING is the VOLTAGE rating, for which I would select 100V.

 

This is higher than one might select if you were buying quality components but as eBay may be a likely supply for most people, give yourself some margin. After all, the obvious source of crap components has given rise to what appears to be a fire risk here...

 

So, look for a 0.1µF (or 100nF) 100V ceramic capacitor.

 

Any general purpose one will do here as we are not concerned with temperature stability.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by 97xx

[PaulRhB]

6 minutes ago, 97xx said:

 

Yes 104 is the value in picoFarads, which are billionths of a Farad (being far too large for most use).

 

104 means 10 and 4 zeros = 10 0000 = 100,000pF = 100nF = 0.1µF.

 

What is MISSING is the VOLTAGE rating, for which I would select 100V.

 

So, look for a 0.1µF (or 100nF) 100V ceramic capacitor.

 

Any general purpose one will do here as we are not concerned with temperature stability.

Ah so there may lie the problem as the Hornby ones don’t carry a voltage so are they the right components?

 

Note one of mine wasn’t actually connected to the wire inside the heatshrink. Possibly why my solo powercar test run didn’t end in smoke? We will never know!  

 

[TRAILRAGE]

2 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

this one won’t embed 

https://youtu.be/sLkSLc2WcHE

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry for some reason YouTube won't allow embedding of the video!

[PaulRhB]

28 minutes ago, TRAILRAGE said:

Sorry for some reason YouTube won't allow embedding of the video!

No worries, I was just trying to make it easier to access direct.  

[97xx]

7 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Ah so there may lie the problem as the Hornby ones don’t carry a voltage so are they the right components?

 

Note one of mine wasn’t actually connected to the wire inside the heatshrink. Possibly why my solo powercar test run didn’t end in smoke? We will never know!  

 

Omission does not necessarily mean wrong voltage, but they are by inspection the lowest of the Won Hung Lo type of component.

 

As was the one in the picture I posted. Might even be sold as 100V but may not actually be able to withstand it as print is cheap.

 

Ideally, if you can buy a named and respected brand like Murata, Vishay, Kemet, TDK, Kyocera then it is highly likely they will be excellent, unless they're fakes. Buying from somewhere like RS Components, Farnell, Rapid, Mouser gives you greatest confidence.

 

In case anyone thinks I'm being unfairly critical of chinese products, I would refer them to something I looked at recently which had a moulded 3-pin UK plug on the flex, with a removable fuseholder in the back as you'd expect, except that (a) the fuse was not even in circuit, and (b) the fuse was a fake of a known brand with no sand in it, and (c) the earth wasn't connected. Quite literally it has been deliberately designed such that it might kill you, in order to save fractions of a renminbi.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by 97xx

[Dagworth]

5 minutes ago, 97xx said:

a moulded 3-pin UK plug on the flex

With a shrouded Earth pin?

 

Andi

[97xx]

27 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

With a shrouded Earth pin?

 

Andi

 

No, even worse really as it actually looked like a BS1363 plug. However, I know what you mean...

[PaulRhB]

35 minutes ago, 97xx said:

Omission does not necessarily mean wrong voltage, but they are by inspection the lowest of the Won Hung Lo type of component.

 

As was the one in the picture I posted. Might even be sold as 100V but may not actually be able to withstand it as print is cheap.

 

Ideally, if you can buy a named and respected brand like Murata, Vishay, Kemet, TDK, Kyocera then it is highly likely they will be excellent, unless they're fakes. Buying from somewhere like RS Components, Farnell, Rapid, Mouser gives you greatest confidence.

 

In case anyone thinks I'm being unfairly critical of chinese products, I would refer them to something I looked at recently which had a moulded 3-pin UK plug on the flex, with a removable fuseholder in the back as you'd expect, except that (a) the fuse was not even in circuit, and (b) the fuse was a fake of a known brand with no sand in it, and (c) the earth wasn't connected. Quite literally it has been deliberately designed such that it might kill you, in order to save fractions of a renminbi.

 

 

Yes unfortunately it’s affected many other companies sourcing parts in China including Tamiya and others but it’s also true there are many companies out there supplying good components.

It could be just a faulty batch, ordering error not picked up as well as deliberately wrong part supplied  

[aureol40012]

On 14/02/2022 at 16:39, PaulRhB said:

Because the intricacies of the later development isn’t of interest to them. It’s more that it admits that the train wasn’t the cliche of failure it’s widely seen as but was used as a development bed for proving the concept of, if not the final solution for, much currently successful technology. Ok it’s not totally accurate technically but it does put forward that it’s not the joke the media, including the BBC, made it out to be but more a victim of politics and changing priorities at the time. 

This is the trouble with train spotters, we often expect everyone to be as anal and obsessed with detail as we are. It’s why you get the usual nonsense and gibberish following a railway related TV show with people complaining that the full start up procedure for a class 40 isn’t shown, or wondering why the full manufacturing process for a model isn’t shown on a Hornby documentary……

[PaulRhB]

So does their coach lighting look realistic?  

 

 

Photo copyright Frank Struben

- APT Kilburn on Flickr 

vs this? 

Edited February 15, 2022 by PaulRhB
(Lower image reversed for comparison)

[zoomer1979]

15 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

So does their coach lighting look realistic?  

 

 

Photo copyright Frank Struben

- APT Kilburn on Flickr 

vs this? 

Aye exactly, which is why I'm going to make mine switchable as part of my improvements. Presumably Hornby have only wired the front and rear lights through the socket correctly for DCC. What does this leave me with to switch the coach lighting?

Neil.

[PaulRhB]

8 minutes ago, zoomer1979 said:

Aye exactly, which is why I'm going to make mine switchable as part of my improvements. Presumably Hornby have only wired the front and rear lights through the socket correctly for DCC. What does this leave me with to switch the coach lighting?

Neil.

Separate wiring to additional functions as they are all common wired to the headlights. You’d need to run wires through and separate the light bay wiring. I thought about it but as I do t run in the dark there seemed little point.