HS2

[Pete the Elaner]

52 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

Isn't this an admission that not enough people want first-class travel to Cornwall to make the service economic?

 

It happens elsewhere too.

I've travelled first on a Pendolino before because it was cheaper than standard.

I think this was because they mis-judged accommodation a few years ago. When Pendolinos were introduced, the first batch were 8 coaches, 4 of which were firsts. The kitchen & luggage areas took around 1/3 of a coach each, kitchen being in 1st & luggage in standard. The shop was also in a standard coach, leaving more floor space for first class than standard. The split between passengers meant that first was never very busy, leaving standard wedged.

All sets got extended fairly quickly, thankfully with standard class. Some of the firsts were also re-built into standards too.

[John Tomlinson]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

 

Isn't this an admission that not enough people want first-class travel to Cornwall to make the service economic?

 

Possibly, although at times she reported the service to be full. Her benefit rested on the advance booking, maybe at some times there are enough latecomers paying full whack to make the first section worthwhile.

 

John.

[billbedford]

1 minute ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

Possibly, although at times she reported the service to be full. Her benefit rested on the advance booking, maybe at some times there are enough latecomers paying full whack to make the first section worthwhile.

 

I suspect down trains on Summer Friday afternoons/evenings are fully booked as the cottage-owning classes head out for their time in the sun, with up trains in a similar situation on Sundays. 

[C126]

14 hours ago, adb968008 said:

... its a guaranteed seat in a quiet coach with a free cuppa.

 

If only!

 

'The Man in Coach A on a Voyager'.

[jamie92208]

A couple of company promotional videos that my be of interest. 

 

The first shows site preparation for the Washwood Heath depot.  No mention that most of the site was a train building factory though. 

Then one showing the installation of abridge over the A446. Some impressive work. 

 

Jamie

[The Stationmaster]

On 28/01/2024 at 22:31, St Enodoc said:

Surely the braking distance must be the same with fixed signals, which is why, everything else being equal, the freight train runs slower than the passenger train?

 

What many people forget is the unusable "white space" between trains running at different speeds and/or with different stopping patterns.

As far as braking distance is v concerned it depends which braking curve is used to design the signalling.  on most of the former Wr 'Mixed Traffic' braking distanc es were used in teh design so both are catred for.  However with some of the Liz Line spacing I suspect it is well be low Mixed Traffic braking distances as will be the closing-up signals at Reading/.  Hence east ofReading, rather illogically in some places where signal spacing is basically unaltered from 50 years ago, the maxiu mum permitted soeeds for freights has ben reduced (but they can still easily catch the Liz Line trains on some sections!.

 

Whire space on timetable graphs is widely misunderstood with many folk (who often should know better) equating it to 'unused capacity.  Of course sometimes it is exactly that but usually it isn't

[The Stationmaster]

On 29/01/2024 at 13:33, billbedford said:

 

I suspect down trains on Summer Friday afternoons/evenings are fully booked as the cottage-owning classes head out for their time in the sun, with up trains in a similar situation on Sundays. 

There is an element of that but 1st Class loadings on the West of England from what I have seen - including yesterday  as it happens,   thus loadings are far more varied than that and include business trab vel (as I saw yesterday with three people oposite me obviouasly travelling for business purpose and no doubt in 1st because it guaranteed than m a table at whoch they could sit and review what they had been doing during the day (reserved seats).  Morning westbound trains also tend to ;pad well in 1st as do some of the balancing afternoon/early evening Up trains.  

 

Business travel still seems common on the Paddington/Reading  - South Wales route and I'd be sirprised if that isn't the case between Euston and the West Midlands.    Cross Country between Reading & Birmingham, in particular also tends to have quite busy business travel in 1st Class 

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I'd be sirprised if that isn't the case between Euston and the West Midlands.

I can remember the days of "The Executive" from West Midlands to Euston.

IIRC there were more Firsts than Seconds provided and all the coaches had laid tables for Breakfast apart from a sole 2nd at the rear for plebs not having food, you still got an at seat tea and coffee service though.

 

EDIT

This is before the NEC station and quite a lot joined at Hampton in Arden.

Edited January 30 by melmerby

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

As far as braking distance is v concerned it depends which braking curve is used to design the signalling.

Of course - but once it's designed and installed it's fixed. Trains with better braking performance (shorter stopping distances from a given speed) can run faster than those with poorer braking performance. Hence differential speed limits for HSTs, for example.

[jamie92208]

I've just wTched a video about the start of work at Curzon Street.  It stated that the station will have 7 platforms.  That's going to seem like ludicrous over provision now that Euston is only going to have 6.

 

Jamie

[class26]

8 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

I've just wTched a video about the start of work at Curzon Street.  It stated that the station will have 7 platforms.  That's going to seem like ludicrous over provision now that Euston is only going to have 6.

 

Jamie

There`s a mention of this in February`s "Modern Railways". Apparently the government decided to continue with all 7 platforms to give Birmingham additional capacity in the future stating that it was a relatively easy job to add a chord to the south so some services could free up space in New St. Also, despite what this government is saying I can`t personally imagine HS2 staying at phase 1 only. At some point the Brum - Manchester section needs something doing to it , even if it isn`t called HS2 and then that capacity will be needed. For once we are doing the right thing and looking ahead beyond the end of next week !

Edited January 31 by class26

[jamie92208]

6 minutes ago, class26 said:

There`s a mention of this in February`s "Modern Railways". Apparently the government decided to continue with all 7 platforms to give Birmingham additional capacity in the future stating that it was a relatively easy job to add a chord to the south so some services could free up space in New St. Also, despite what this government is saying I can`t personally imagine HS2 staying at phase 1 only. At some point the Brum - Manchester section needs something doing to it , even if it isn`t called HS2 and then that capacity will be needed. For once we are doping the right thing and looking ahead beyond the end of next week !

I agree but the cynic in me suggests that the contracts/design were too advanced so that cha ges would have cost more than they saved.  However with very few trains scheduled to use the north facing chords at the Delta Junction there may well be scope for some services either calling at Curzon Street to reverse or for some Birmi gham to Scotland services to use that route.  Only time will tell. 

 

Jamie

[class26]

7 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I agree but the cynic in me suggests that the contracts/design were too advanced so that cha ges would have cost more than they saved.  However with very few trains scheduled to use the north facing chords at the Delta Junction there may well be scope for some services either calling at Curzon Street to reverse or for some Birmi gham to Scotland services to use that route.  Only time will tell. 

 

Jamie

I am sure you are right regarding contracts being too far advanced so this guff about future capacity is the government putting a positive spin on something they really have no choice over unless they want a total redesign costing squillions for a much smaller station.  

[rodent279]

46 minutes ago, class26 said:

There`s a mention of this in February`s "Modern Railways". Apparently the government decided to continue with all 7 platforms to give Birmingham additional capacity in the future stating that it was a relatively easy job to add a chord to the south so some services could free up space in New St. Also, despite what this government is saying I can`t personally imagine HS2 staying at phase 1 only. At some point the Brum - Manchester section needs something doing to it , even if it isn`t called HS2 and then that capacity will be needed. For once we are doing the right thing and looking ahead beyond the end of next week !

Once the land has been sold off, it will be uber expensive to reacquire, if it hasn't been developed already. I think phase 2 is dead and buried, deliberately so.

Edited January 31 by rodent279

[class26]

40 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Once the land has been sold off, it will be uber expensive to reacquire, if it hasn't been developed already. I think phase 2 is dead and buried, deliberately so.

Probably correct BUT, it hasn`t been sold off and who is going to buy it knowing that it MIGHT be subject to compulsory purchase n the future. This government has a maximum of 11 months to run, most likely less. 

[Michael Hodgson]

17 minutes ago, class26 said:

Probably correct BUT, it hasn`t been sold off and who is going to buy it knowing that it MIGHT be subject to compulsory purchase n the future. This government has a maximum of 11 months to run, most likely less. 

The other lot has many other expensive projects it considers much more higher priority than supertrains if they win the Lotto or somehow manage to find some spare dosh in the national piggy bank

[62613]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

Once the land has been sold off, it will be uber expensive to reacquire, if it hasn't been developed already. I think phase 2 is dead and buried, deliberately so.

Going back to a previous post; if a railway scheme has passed Parliament and been signed of by Her Maj, can the government just sell off the land detailed in the act? Crewe - Manchester, no problem, but Handsacre - Crewe?

[APOLLO]

It's criminally insane to sell land / property purchased for the Manchester (and Golborne link) lines.

 

As we march forward to 2050 etc (net zero) the line will be needed at some point.

 

The route must be kept and mothballed. Property and farmland etc bought can be rented / leased, always with the proviso of future railway construction.

 

But our Governments of all colours only see ££££, mostly for themselves and their mates.

 

What a mess we are in.

 

Brit15

 

 

[rodent279]

42 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

It's criminally insane to sell land / property purchased for the Manchester (and Golborne link) lines.

 

As we march forward to 2050 etc (net zero) the line will be needed at some point.

 

The route must be kept and mothballed. Property and farmland etc bought can be rented / leased, always with the proviso of future railway construction.

 

But our Governments of all colours only see ££££, mostly for themselves and their mates.

 

What a mess we are in.

 

Brit15

 

 

Agreed. But this is Britain, sanity has had a different definition to the usual definition for some years now.

 

1 hour ago, class26 said:

This government has a maximum of 11 months to run, most likely less.

I'm not holding my breath. See my previous sentence.

[62613]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

It's criminally insane to sell land / property purchased for the Manchester (and Golborne link) lines.

 

As we march forward to 2050 etc (net zero) the line will be needed at some point.

 

The route must be kept and mothballed. Property and farmland etc bought can be rented / leased, always with the proviso of future railway construction.

 

But our Governments of all colours only see ££££, mostly for themselves and their mates.

 

What a mess we are in.

 

Brit15

 

 

Bears repeating, again and again; the price of everything and the value of nothing. It's not confined only to public bodies, either. You'd be surprised at how many private bodies, when putting capital projects out to tender, only look at the installation costs, rather than those over the whole life of the installation.

[The Stationmaster]

9 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

I agree but the cynic in me suggests that the contracts/design were too advanced so that cha ges would have cost more than they saved.  However with very few trains scheduled to use the north facing chords at the Delta Junction there may well be scope for some services either calling at Curzon Street to reverse or for some Birmi gham to Scotland services to use that route.  Only time will tell. 

 

Jamie

It makes sense ina number of ways - and not just avoiding compensation on contracts althugh I bet that was a major thought!).    Old Oak is going to be next to useless for doing full turnround attention on an y trains unless someone has added lots of additional facilities such as service lifts to the platforms, a catering base, train watering, and quick, but thorough cleaning.  with 7 platforms Curzon St would be much better fitted to handle some of that instead of it being done at the London end and provided it has good service access to the platforms.  And surely it will look good for levelling up if Birmingham hasa better station than London!

 

OF course one point to remember is that while it might have 7 platforms will they all have track to them?

[jamie92208]

Meanwhile some real signs of progress on the Delta junction as mentioned above. 

 

Jamie

[jamie92208]

31 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

It makes sense ina number of ways - and not just avoiding compensation on contracts althugh I bet that was a major thought!).    Old Oak is going to be next to useless for doing full turnround attention on an y trains unless someone has added lots of additional facilities such as service lifts to the platforms, a catering base, train watering, and quick, but thorough cleaning.  with 7 platforms Curzon St would be much better fitted to handle some of that instead of it being done at the London end and provided it has good service access to the platforms.  And surely it will look good for levelling up if Birmingham hasa better station than London!

 

OF course one point to remember is that while it might have 7 platforms will they all have track to them?

That potentially could be a lifesaver as OOC is apparently incapable of reliably handling more than 6 trains per hour due to the low speed crossovers just West of the station in the Victoria Road crossover box. Richard Bowker was rather scathing about this in one of the Green Signal episodes. 

 

Jamie

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

Meanwhile some real signs of progress on the Delta junction as mentioned above.....

 

 

That video has already been posted on here Jamie.

 

21st December 2023 -  Page 355

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

12 hours ago, class26 said:

There`s a mention of this in February`s "Modern Railways". Apparently the government decided to continue with all 7 platforms to give Birmingham additional capacity in the future stating that it was a relatively easy job to add a chord to the south so some services could free up space in New St. ..........

 

"Relatively easy job" ????????

 

🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

Somebody has been smoking some strong stuff !

 

The HS2 lines into and out of Curzon St. will be on a high viaduct, including the large Bellingham Bridge.

Leaving the station and crossing the Digbeth Branch Canal, the line then rises to cross over Lawley Middleway and high above the Duddeston line viaduct, before curving round to the north.

 

Crossing the River Rea just north of the Landor St. Freightliner terminal, the viaduct continues over the line through Saltley (passing in front of the NR West Midlands Signalling Centre, before gradually returning the ground level as it approaches Washwood Heath.

 

Where on earth can a chord to the south be easily inserted into that route?

 

 

CGI....

Curzon St. in the distance.

The Landor St. terminal is located just off the bottom of the photo.....

 

 

 

Crossing high above and over the Duddeston Line viaduct......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited January 31 by Ron Ron Ron