“BEYOND DOVER”

[Flying Fox 34F]

There is potential for a very busy Micro Layout based on Nordbahnhof. The entire scene could be contained within the overall roof, with the front being along the columns of the Arrival Platform.

 

Now what have I done?????

 

Paul

[Northroader]

A bit like this?

http://bambrickstudio.co.uk/temple-meads-diorama/

plus this:

 

 

 

 

(p.s. not me, I didn’t do the drawing!)

Edited May 1, 2022 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Northroader said:

It’s interesting that there is quite a handy little marshalling yard between the platform roads, where you can shuffle coaches to your hearts content, which isn’t so obvious at the early St. Pancras.

 

Yes, St P was all dead-end sidings.

[Johann Marsbar]

11 hours ago, Northroader said:

A bit like this?

http://bambrickstudio.co.uk/temple-meads-diorama/

plus this:

 

 

 

 

(p.s. not me, I didn’t do the drawing!)

 

Rather an unfortunate name for the artist of that drawing in todays speak!

[Ian Morgan]

In a similar vein, this is an interesting attempt to expand a view inside a train shed, with some clever geometric transformations:

 

 

 

[Northroader]

That’s an interesting link to a layout of which I was unaware,  Ian, although in the past I have been wowed by the gentleman’s “Cheyenne” at shows. As I understand it, it will form a static tableau with no movement, rather like the Bambrick “Bristol Temple Meads” which gives a very presentable setting for some quality models. The one person I regard highly for large station interiors is Peter Smith, aka “Kirtley Pete” on the web, who’s a contract builder. He’s done one which I think is static,   

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128672-birmingham-snow-hill-in-7mm-scale/#comment-2944144

and one which bears comparison with your link:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/157958-york-station-in-the-1950s/https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/157958-york-station-in-th

Paul’s suggestion of using a vintage big city terminus with the overall roof enclosing a  layout where essentially you have a microlayout with plenty of movement is very attractive, and an interesting variation on conventional model settings. The main problem as I see it, is that you would need a fair quantity of scratch built coaching stock, even if only four wheelers, and the structure building would soak up a lot of time.

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Northroader

[ianathompson]

On 13/02/2022 at 05:45, Northroader said:

I used Humbrol plastic cement, in the pious hope that the sides won’t go banana shaped, which usually happens when I use the liquid Mekpak

 

I used to have this problem when modelling opens.

I now chop the sides into smaller pieces so that they can bow outwards, as on decrepit wagons.

 I hide the joints behind the strapping, although they will show on the inside,

 

 

The photo above shows a relatively well looked after open at Fenditavalat.

Some of the older more decrepit ones bow much further from a straight side.

 

Ian T

 

Ian T

[Northroader]

Just staying with the idea of a city terminus forming an enclosure for a micro carriage shunting yard, it struck me there’s a nice example at the old Gare d’Austerlitz in Paris. It opened as quite a simple terminus for the original Paris- Orleans Railway, but as this extended on down to Bordeaux, it had an expansion, with a grand train hall, arrival platform, departure platform, and carriage sidings in the middle, just what is wanted. All nice simple four wheelers, all that’s missing is a brass clad P-O loco (see page 1 of this thread)

In the 1870 siege of Paris, the size of the train hall was found useful in making gas balloons to communicate with the outside world. Probably in a model setting it would need some “selective compression”. Later on, it became very bitty, with the Quai d’Orsay extension, and the Metro passing through the middle at right angles overhead, so stick to the 1880s.

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Northroader

[burgundy]

On 13/02/2022 at 05:45, Northroader said:

KFNB - who they? The Kaiser Ferdinand Nord Bahn was the first main line in Austria, initial opening in 1837. It extended roughly North East from Vienna, passing through Principalities and Archdukedoms you won’t find on a map now, and ending up at Lviv with an ongoing connection for Warsaw. The system, which was quite extensive, merged into the kkStB in 1908, so it fits into my time frame. 

Out of interest, have you found any good sources in English or German that describe the "pre-grouping" railways of the Austrian Empire?

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Northroader]

Looking at Abebooks, which is where I got my copy, I could recommend this, which is reasonably priced. It is, of course, all in German, which I don’t speak, but it follows a format with intro, system dates with maps, and plenty of photographs, so there’s enough gen to make it up as you go along.

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/9783900134419/DAMPFBETRIEB-ALT-OSTERREICH-1837-1918-STOCKKLAUSNER-JOHANN-3900134413/plp

The Viennese publishers, Verlag Slezak, ran a very useful series matching this volume: 

“Lokomotivbau in Alt- Osterreich” (locos with photos and small drawings)

“Bahnhofe In Osterreich” (stations, mainly architecture)

“Ostereichische Personnenwagen” (coaches, including OBB stock post 1918, but a lovely pregroup selection as well)

There really needs to be a Guterwagen book, but I haven’t seen one. There’s also all the words and music for narrow gauge, quite sought after, “Schmalspurig Durch O——“.

Having seen your modelling capabilities, Eric, I wish you the very best of luck with this.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Northroader

[burgundy]

2 hours ago, Northroader said:

Looking at Abebooks, which is where I got my copy, I could recommend this, which is reasonably priced. It is, of course, all in German, which I don’t speak, but it follows a format with intro, system dates with maps, and plenty of photographs, so there’s enough gen to make it up as you go along.

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/9783900134419/DAMPFBETRIEB-ALT-OSTERREICH-1837-1918-STOCKKLAUSNER-JOHANN-3900134413/plp

The Viennese publishers, Verlag Slezak, ran a very useful series matching this volume: 

“Lokomotivbau in Alt- Osterreich” (locos with photos and small drawings)

“Bahnhofe In Osterreich” (stations, mainly architecture)

“Ostereichische Personnenwagen” (coaches, including OBB stock post 1918, but a lovely pregroup selection as well)

There really needs to be a Guterwagen book, but I haven’t seen one. There’s also all the words and music for narrow gauge, quite sought after, “Schmalspurig Durch O——“.

Having seen your modelling capabilities, Eric, I wish you the very best of luck with this.

Danke schön.

However tempting the image of a Hungarian loco plodding through Transylvania might be, I shall try to resist modelling it. Nothing further east than Hurstmonceux for the time being!

On the other hand, I do have an interested in the history of that part of the world. 

Best wishes 

Eric 

[pete_mcfarlane]

I can't decide if those Austro-Hungarian 0-6-0s or the Belgian State Railways type 25 is my favourite ugly European loco.  

[Northroader]

There’s a story about a Hungarian locomotive engineer being shown pictures of a Swindon “Saint” 4-6-0, and remarking it reminded him of a plucked chicken.

[rockershovel]

14 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

I can't decide if those Austro-Hungarian 0-6-0s or the Belgian State Railways type 25 is my favourite ugly European loco.  

Oh, I don't know. They have quite a balanced appearance, not at all the sort of thing you sometimes see - apparently designed without regard for weight distribution or assembled in the dark from the components of several unrelated locos 

[rockershovel]

12 hours ago, Northroader said:

There’s a story about a Hungarian locomotive engineer being shown pictures of a Swindon “Saint” 4-6-0, and remarking it reminded him of a plucked chicken.

Are you sure that isn't an earlier version of "hovercraft full of eels"? 

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

Oh, I don't know. They have quite a balanced appearance, not at all the sort of thing you sometimes see - apparently designed without regard for weight distribution or assembled in the dark from the components of several unrelated locos 

The type 25 being a classic example of the latter

 

[Northroader]

And if anyone should fancy a tickle at that, here’s a drawing wot I did, 0 scale 1/43 marked out in inches. In my humble opinion a better drawing than you’ll find in the St. Leonard catalogue on the Tassignon site, but then, I would say that, wouldn’t I?

(p.s. wonder what you could do with a Dapol class 08 Gronk chassis?)

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Northroader

[Northroader]

Oh! Eric, just checking back, I realise I've only given you half the tale when you asked for sources of info on Austrian Empire railways. The guy in Vienna who was Austrian Emperor also needed to be the King of Hungary in Budapest, and tread a tight rope satisfying national aspirations of both countries, so it was actually the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Slezak publishers in Vienna did a good job with the books I referenced for Austria, but this leaves the Hungarian State system out, and I fancy this would be of more interest to you, with your fascination for the Siebenburgen/ Transylvanian corner. Luckily there’s a very good English language book tracing the historical development and setting the scene, very good value, and covering the greater Hungarian area pre WW1, before Transylvania was transferred to Rumania. So back to good old Abebooks:

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=p.m kalla-bishop&tn=hungarian railways&cm_sp=mbc-_-ats-_-all

For the sake of completeness, just in case somebody else out there enjoys old Hungarian steamers, there’s a good German language book doing the full monty on Hungarian loco history:

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?kn=Ungarische lokomotiven und triebwagen&sts=t&cm_sp=SearchF-_-topnav-_-Results

And to round it off, a thinner German language book from Slezak, which is composed of good pictures over the steam period of the MAV. (“Puszta” is the Hungarian Plain)

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=3900134383&cm_sp=mbc-_-ISBN-_-all

Edited February 16, 2022 by Northroader

[ianathompson]

3 hours ago, Northroader said:

Luckily there’s a very good English language book tracing the historical development and setting the scene, very good value, and covering the greater Hungarian area pre WW1, before Transylvania was transferred to Rumania. So back to good old Abebooks:

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=p.m kalla-bishop&tn=hungarian railways&cm_sp=mbc-_-ats-_-all

 

From a personal point of view, best of luck if you try to read it!!

I have tried but I gave it up as a bad job.

 

I haven't been paying attention, as usual, but perhaps a simpler option would be David & Charles Locomotive Studies, The Steam Locomotives of Eastern Europe, A.E. Durrant 1966, with a re-run in 1972..

This gives a potted version but allows comparison with neighbouring countries, many of which were constituents of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

 

Ian T

[Northroader]

I know what you mean, Ian, it does give the historical development of the system, but if you’re not a native and really familiar with the geography and placenames, it is very heavy going for that aspect. I was following a system map for the KFNB but after leaving Wien, it just became ungraspable, and ending up in Lviv, now Belorussian and featured in news headlines, I’m thinking why go there? and what’s it like on the way? The folks who live there could tell you, but me, I’m sticking with places I know, like Fenditavalat.

The Durrant book is good for loco. history, and I like how it charts the reallocation of classes built for one system and turning up far away after wars and redrawing of boundaries and creation of new nations, but Eric Burgundy was primarily after historical system development.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Northroader

[burgundy]

14 minutes ago, Northroader said:

 I’m sticking with places I know, like Fenditavalat.

Please! Enlightenment needed. 

Even Google maps cannot find that one!

Best wishes 

Eric 

[ianathompson]

40 minutes ago, burgundy said:

Please! Enlightenment needed. 

Even Google maps cannot find that one!

Best wishes 

Eric 

 

It is an amusing reference to the terminus of my own European NG system, the AFK.

It can be found here, although you will have to press the town name on the index.

 

Ian T

[Andy Hayter]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

 I was following a system map for the KFNB but after leaving Wien, it just became ungraspable, and ending up in Lviv, now Belorussian

Belorussia?  This morning it was still Ukrainian.

 

Incidentally it is The city that is closest to the geographical centre of Europe  (N-S and E-W)

[Northroader]

And answering my own question, whether you could get away with using a class 08 Gronk chassis on a Belgian class 25, the wheels are near enough, 4’6” for a Gronk, 4’3” for a 25, but the wheelbase is the problem, 11’6” for the diesel, but 13’9” for the steamer, at 16% difference, rather a lot to be noticeable for an approximation?

Heigh ho, here’s a nice goods train stopped for signals at Libramont, with a class 25 on the front. There were 472 examples built, so very common to see. Over the tracks there’s a class 11 0-6-0T on station pilot, it’s got a square chimney, but letting the side down by having outside cylinders and inside frames.

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Northroader

[Northroader]

1 minute ago, Andy Hayter said:

Belorussia?  This morning it was still Ukrainian.

 

Incidentally it is The city that is closest to the geographical centre of Europe  (N-S and E-W)

Sorry, you’re right, I’ve been reading too many newspapers and got confused.