West Highland Line train formations 1980's

[Fat Controller]

On 31/03/2020 at 18:25, slow8dirty said:

Are the IIB 'fish' the interfrigo vans that were trialled?  Very useful topic by the way. 

IIB were indeed Interfrigo insulated vans.

[03060]

22 hours ago, keefer said:

I take it certain locos would be assigned to the line, then just work there and thereabouts until they needed to go for servicing?

 

I'd thought about posting this earlier but now might be a good time, the following Eastfield passenger loco diagrams are taken from my understanding of the information to be found in 'Loco-Hauled Travel 1985-6' (Metro Publications) and 'Scottish Class 37's' vol's 1 and 2 (Train Crazy.) :-

 

Dia. 37.12:    09.50*     GQS - FW

                       16.05        FW - Mg

                       18.50        Mg - FW

                       21.05        FW - Mg

 

Dia. 37.13:   10.05       FW - Mg

                       12.20       Mg - FW

                       14.15*     FW - GQS

 

Dia. 37.14:    06.50       Mg - FW

                       08.40       FW - GQS

                       16.50 so  GQS - FW

 

Dia. 37.15:    11.05 sx  GQS - Perth

                        16.50 sx  GQS - FW

 

Dia. 37.16:     12.20      GQS - Ob

                         18.00      Ob - GQS

 

Dia. 37.17:      03.07      Mo Yd - FW     (21.00 ex Euston) (Sleeper)

                         14.05      FW - Mg

                         15.50      Mg - FW

                         17.42      FW - GQS        (to Euston (sx)) (Sleeper)

 

Dia. 37.19:      08.20     GQS - Ob

                         13.00      Ob - GQS

                         18.20      GQS - Ob

 

Dia. 37.20:      08.00     Ob - GQS

 

Dia. 37.23:      10.16 Sun   Cowlairs - Ob                (08.55 ex Edinburgh* (Summer only))

                          15.30 Sun  Ob - Cowlairs                (to Edinburgh* (Summer only))

 

Dia. 37.24:      12.25*Sun  Ob - GQS

                         17.20*Sun  GQS - Ob

 

Dia. 37.25:      17.50 Sun  GQS - FW

 

Dia. 37.26:      17.42 Sun  FW - GQS                       (to Euston) (Sleeper)

 

 

The Eastfield 1985 loco pool being:-

 

37 011/2/4/7/8   022/6/7   033/7/9   043   051   081/5   090   108   111/2   124   144/7/8/9   157   171/2/5/8/9  184/8   190/1/2   237   253   265.

 

By Aug 1986 28 of these had moved on with the arrivals of :-

 

37 401/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9  410/1/2/3  422/3/4/5.

 

So as can be see, for the modeller, whilst there is great loco variety (if you like Class 37's) there's also a good excuse for the same locos turning up repeatedly at your station(s) !!

 

Unfortunately I don't have any info regarding Frieght diagrams, can anybody suggest any printed sources, please ?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by 03060
Correction.

[03060]

On 31/03/2020 at 18:01, Rivercider said:

 

 

In addition to the various OWV wooden bodied clayfits that worked to locations across BR some of the clay wagons originally built for export clay via Fowey (TOPS code UCV) also found themselves working to Corpach. The UCVs that worked to the Potteries and elsewhere did not receive the distinctive 'hoods'.

 

cheers

 

Have just been looking through David Ratcliffe's Freight Train Formations book and found two references to OWV and UCV wagons either destined for or returning from Corpach.

23/9/80 x16 OWV with x4 UCV mixed in along with 15 other wagons and a brake van on the 7M86 St.Blazey - Carlisle.

23/9/80 x8 OWV with x2 UCV and 27 other wagons and brake heading in the return direction to Severn Tunnel Jnc (including another 10 OWV's heading back from other sites) on the 7V30.

 

Wagon numbers are given.

 

Regards,

Ian.

[young37215]

Resurecting this thread, below is a 1984 picture of a weedkilling train departing Bridge of Orchy. I am uncertain as to whose this was, I am guessing Chipmans? Can anyone clarify?

 

w is a 194

[03060]

5 hours ago, young37215 said:

Resurecting this thread, below is a 1984 picture of a weedkilling train departing Bridge of Orchy. I am uncertain as to whose this was, I am guessing Chipmans? Can anyone clarify?

 

w is a 194

 

Hello Rob,

 

Tom Noble's Mallaig line book has a 1985 photo with identical stock less one coach which he quotes as belonging to Fisons.

 

This thread may help:-

 

 

Regards,

Ian.

Edited January 31, 2022 by 03060
Extra info added.

[young37215]

Thanks Ian, having looked at Paul Bartlett's site again I concur. I was unaware that Fisons had an old LMS TSO in use as a spray coach, I thought they only used the ex class 100 DMU. 

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/fisonsweedkiller

 

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by young37215

[meanach]

With the imminent release of accurascale mk2 B carriages , does anyone know if these made it on to the west highland in the late 80s? 

[03060]

On 15/03/2022 at 19:57, meanach said:

With the imminent release of accurascale mk2 B carriages , does anyone know if these made it on to the west highland in the late 80s? 

 

Hello @meanach

Sorry for the delay in replying but to be honest I wasn't sure how to tell the difference between a Mk2a and a Mk2b coach so have had to try and 'spot the difference' ....concluding that Mk2b have doors and grey livery which wraps around the ends and also there are no center doors on the TSOs.

 

Using this theory I've just had a quick look through 3 books to hand and could only find 2 'potential' Mk2b candidates on the West Highland Line, both being brakes and both being BSOs (I think) so not any of the first batch that Accurascale are producing.

 

Photo 1 is in Roger Siviter's 37s in the Highlands, the coach in question being behind 37 423 at Arisaig in 1986 ...this coach however has rather flatish air vents on the roof so may be something else.

 

Photo 2 appears in Pip Dunn's 37/4 book 'From Wick to Penzance' p.28 which shows a possible Mk2b BSO (if there is such a thing)  behind 37 403 in Monessie Gorge.

 

I'll keep looking as I get chance but don't lose hope as I'm always amazed at what new information or one off pictures of odd vehicles on the WHL that keep turning up. There is also a clear Verden Anderson cover photo on Scotland's Railways  of at least one Mk2b (possibly 3) behind 37 418 on an Inverness Highland mainline service ...so they were 'possibly' up above Edinburgh and Glasgow.

 

Regards,

Ian.

Edited March 17, 2022 by 03060
Correction on further info.

[03060]

Further to my last post I've been up into the loft and retrieved my little Coaching Stock Recognition book from 1983 which states that there weren't any Mk2b BSO coaches built so I reckon that the two that I've suspected on the WHL must be Mk2c, although I'm still non the wiser as regards the 'flat' roof vents. 

 

Time that I bought the new revised book by Hugh Longsworth that is due out soon all about Mk1 and Mk2 coaches.

 

Regards,

Ian.

Edited March 17, 2022 by 03060
Extra info added.

[03060]

To illustrate my point regarding odd photos of odd vehicles turning up on the West Highland Line I have just managed to identify the wagon peeping into the 1981 shot of 37 028 waiting to leave Crianlarich for Fort William (Roger Siviter's 37s in the Highlands) as one of these ferry vans from Yugoslavia !

 

(Courtesy of a previous post by @The Bigbee Line )

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by 03060

[hexagon789]

9 hours ago, 03060 said:

Sorry for the delay in replying but to be honest I wasn't sure how to tell the difference between a Mk2a and a Mk2b coach so have had to try and 'spot the difference' ....concluding that Mk2b have doors and grey livery which wraps around the ends and also there are no center doors on the TSOs.

 

Using this theory I've just had a quick look through 3 books to hand and could only find 2 'potential' Mk2b candidates on the West Highland Line, both being brakes and both being BSOs (I think) so not any of the first batch that Accurascale are producing.

 

Photo 1 is in Roger Siviter's 37s in the Highlands, the coach in question being behind 37 423 at Arisaig in 1986 ...this coach however has rather flatish air vents on the roof so may be something else.

 

Photo 2 appears in Pip Dunn's 37/4 book 'From Wick to Penzance' p.28 which shows a possible Mk2b BSO (if there is such a thing)  behind 37 403 in Monessie Gorge.

The WHL trains with the exception of the Euston sleeper, were vacuum braked and often mixed Mk1/2 stock. So no Mk2B vehicles would likely appear. I have seen a Mk2C in a three coach set but that was all air-braked stock and likely the seated vehicles off the sleeper doing a fill-in run.

 

9 hours ago, 03060 said:

There is also a clear Verden Anderson cover photo on Scotland's Railways  of at least one Mk2b (possibly 3) behind 37 418 on an Inverness Highland mainline service ...so they were definitly up above Edinburgh and Glasgow.

I have this book and on inspection the train appears to be formed:

 

Mk2C BSO

Mk2A TSO

Mk2A TSO

MK2C CK

Mk2C TSOT 

 

The standard Inverness-Edinburgh/Glasgow formation. There were no 2B vehicles in the pool for these workings. 

 

5 hours ago, 03060 said:

Further to my last post I've been up into the loft and retrieved my little Coaching Stock Recognition book from 1983 which states that there weren't any Mk2b BSO coaches built so I reckon that the two that I've suspected on the WHL must be Mk2c, although I'm still non the wiser as regards the 'flat' roof vents. 

 

Time that I bought the new revised book by Hugh Longsworth that is due out soon all about Mk1 and Mk2 coaches.

 

Regards,

Ian.

The 2B only came in TSO, FK and BFK flavours on BR. Northern Ireland Railways did have other different types of 2B though, more suited to their needs.

[03060]

1 hour ago, hexagon789 said:

The WHL trains with the exception of the Euston sleeper, were vacuum braked and often mixed Mk1/2 stock. So no Mk2B vehicles would likely appear. I have seen a Mk2C in a three coach set but that was all air-braked stock and likely the seated vehicles off the sleeper doing a fill-in run.

 

I have this book and on inspection the train appears to be formed:

 

Mk2C BSO

Mk2A TSO

Mk2A TSO

MK2C CK

Mk2C TSOT 

 

The standard Inverness-Edinburgh/Glasgow formation. There were no 2B vehicles in the pool for these workings. 

 

The 2B only came in TSO, FK and BFK flavours on BR. Northern Ireland Railways did have other different types of 2B though, more suited to their needs.

 

Thanks for the clarification regarding the Mk2 identifications, not one of my strong points with definite room for improvement ! 

[hexagon789]

20 minutes ago, 03060 said:

 

Thanks for the clarification regarding the Mk2 identifications, not one of my strong points with definite room for improvement ! 

If it's any consolation it took me years to be able to tell the various "marks" of the Mk2 design apart at a glance, and I still struggle to tell a 2E from a 2F easily much of the time.

 

2A from 2Z isn't that easy either, context in terms of brake (vacuum vs air) helps but isn't infallible given there were conversions with certain vehicles to the opposite type to that originally fitted.

 

The Harris book has been invaluable on the Mk2 front, but Longworth is useful as well.

 

Going back to the original point though - I think 2Bs were simply quite rare in Scotland.

[meanach]

Thanks very much everyone for your comprehensive replies . I had a feeling from fading memory that I didn’t recall seeing any in use in my time hanging out behind 37/4s . I’m sure my wallet will thank me but I was rather hoping for some of those lovely carriages . 
 

As for the wagon front , I’m still hoping for an accurate aluminium wagon from someone! Also the refrigerated vans would be nice . Also isn’t it about time one of the manufacturers did an up to date and accurate TTA ? (Although I have 5 of these long sat on my work bench with etched parts in bits). 

[64F]

RevolutioN's recent announcement of the 1988 Alcan PCAs will be a big boost to West Highland modelling in the 37/4 era.  Together with Kernow's PRAs they were signature wagons for the route.

 

Re. the previous discussion about mk2B carriages in Scotland, the trio of 2B TSOs allocated to ScotRail (5437/5445/5488) were part of the varied collection of air-braked stock which was transferred to Polmadie in 1987 to replace the vac-braked Sealink mk1s on the Stranraer trains   This image on Flickr shows a Glasgow-Stranraer train at Ayr in 1988, and the lead coach appears to be a 2B TSO with ScotRail branding.

 

By 1989 the Super Sprinters had taken over in the south west and two of the mk2Bs had been reallocated to Craigentinny, so I'd imagine they might have turned up on the Inverness trains after that.

 

 

[Kinlochleven]

Thanks to all for this nice formation guide. A question about the sprinters: Did they take over in a single day? Or was there a (maybe short) period of mixed traffic with sprinters and loco hauled trains (maybe a loco replacement for a failing sprinter)? Where there test runs in advance, e.g to calculate the time tables?

[03060]

2 hours ago, Kinlochleven said:

Thanks to all for this nice formation guide. A question about the sprinters: Did they take over in a single day? Or was there a (maybe short) period of mixed traffic with sprinters and loco hauled trains (maybe a loco replacement for a failing sprinter)? Where there test runs in advance, e.g to calculate the time tables?

 

I'm not sure as to how they took over exactly but I do remember that they seemed to be running as 3 car units at first instead of the now customary 2, 4 or 6 car units. This is backed up with photos on p.47 of Bob Avery's Rails To The Isles book (Railway World Special) taken in the summer of 1989, the units themselves being introduced onto the WHL in Jan of that year, with the 3 car re-jig to try and alleviate overcrowding.

 

Regards,

Ian.

[hexagon789]

On 20/08/2023 at 22:42, 03060 said:

 

I'm not sure as to how they took over exactly but I do remember that they seemed to be running as 3 car units at first instead of the now customary 2, 4 or 6 car units. This is backed up with photos on p.47 of Bob Avery's Rails To The Isles book (Railway World Special) taken in the summer of 1989, the units themselves being introduced onto the WHL in Jan of that year, with the 3 car re-jig to try and alleviate overcrowding.

 

Regards,

Ian.

They ran as 3-car in the Summers of 1989 and 1993. Corkerhill made up six 3-car sets specially, each running as 6 to Crianlarich, then 3 each to Oban & Mallaig.

 

The 158 issues precluded this being repeated in 1990 and 1991, as 156s had to cover for the not yet available 158s on Edinburgh - Glasgow and Glasgow - Aberdeen.

 

The Inverness - Aberdeen sets were also made up as 3s for the first year (1989), with four such sets leaving a single 2 spare. Again the 158 issues meant this wasn't repeated, in fact the service reverted to loco-hauled in 1990 to free up the 156s to Haymarket. 

[03060]

Just for interest there are some nice Gavin Morrison photos in this months Backtrack (Sept '23) centre spread taken in early April 1988 on the Mallaig line.

 

3 of them show the same 4 coach train formation of all Mk.2a BFK, TSO, BSO, BFK which very strangely seem to change roof colouring even on the out and back photos. The main culprits being theFW end BSO and the BFK which are a lightish grey in 2 photos but the same dark grey as the other 2 coaches in the photo of the return journey ?? Would light reflection from the Lochs make that much difference ?

 

The other centre spread photo depicts a wonderful 2 coach formation on the 14.10 service with a dark grey roofed Mk.1 BSOT and a very light grey roofed TSO, presumably having arrived at FW along with the sleeper stock.

 

Regards,

Ian.

[03060]

There was a comment on another thread a while back regarding Open carriages possibly having replaced Corridor carriages on the WHL from the mid 1980s but I came across this 1986 photo the other day which I thought was interesting showing an all Mk1 BFK, SK, BSK, SK, TSO formation at large on the Mallaig section behind 37424.

 

Photo by Stephen Burdett 13/6/86.

 

[MossdaleNGauge]

There are some examples from 1980 of train formations in Michael Palin’s trip to Kyle and back.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/great-railway-journeys--confessions-of-a-train-spotter/znc7cqt

[03060]

..... Whereas this 1980 train at Mallaig looks potentially like TSO, TSO, TSO, BFK, RMB, TSO !

 

Photo by Jerry Spilett, 29/7/80