What typed of bus ran in Essex late 50's early 60's

[cravensdmufan]

35 minutes ago, gobbler said:

the bus will be my next project, i hope i can do it some justice.  Not sure whether to keep it on this thread or start a new one i  kit building and scratch  building.

 

What do you think?

Keep it here I think.

 

Nice to follow a project from it's inception and research stages.

 

As you are the OP, I wonder if you can add some tags like model bus, Eastern National, scratch build etc?  I'm not sure if you can retro tag.  I'm sure Andy Y could advise and help. 

 

Or change topic title to include scratch built model?

Edited March 26, 2020 by cravensdmufan
Additional wording

[SRman]

13 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 

I might be correcting a typo but they were RCL if the more regular 30' version or RMC if 27' 6" though they were much less common on the 721 which should have only had the longer vehicles.  

 

 

Beware changes in legislation.  Buses and coaches were once limited to 7' 6" wide and 27' 6" long.  Off the top of my head I cannot recall the dates those changed to permit 8' 0" and 30' 0" but early 1960s is in mind.  

 

For Bristol marques the manufacturer added the letter W to the type code in certain cases (such as KS becoming KSW) to distinguish the greater width.  M-types became MW.  A white steering wheel was fitted to remind the driver of the extra width which is something many modellers faithfully replicate.  London types came under slightly different legislation; wider buses were not permitted by City of London Police until the RTW class though Routemasters were 8' 0" wide from the outset in 1954.  They were still restricted to 27' 6" for many years with the later 30' 0" RML and RCL types being the only rear-entrance vehicles built for the Capital to that length.  

A minor correction for you, Rick: the MW was the "Medium Weight" saloon (single decker), following on from the earlier semi-integral LS ("Light Saloon"). Both of these are available as RTR models, the LS bus and MW coach from EFE, and the MW bus from Base Toys / BT Models. The EFE LS coach is not accurate and is really the MW coach without the printed grille.

Edit: the 8' rule outside of London was in the late '40s or early '50s. LT ordered the RFs at 7' 6' wide because they weren't certain when that would change. 30' 2-axle single deckers came in the 1950s also, but the change to 30' 2-axle double deckers and 36' 2-axle single deckers was around 1962, or thereabouts. It was around the same time that opening windscreens were no longer required.

 

Edited March 27, 2020 by SRman

[SRman]

I don't know if these will help a bit, but a couple of photos showing existing models of Bristol MW buses and coaches, and a Bristol LS bus, albeit none are in Essex liveries. The MW buses are from Little Bus Company resin kits, The early LS 1951 coach is Little Bus Company resin kit, the later Royal Blue LS coach is an ABS Streetscene white metal kit, and the LS bus (actually representing a dual-purpose vehicle) is a repainted EFE diecast. All had ECW bodies (from Lowestoft).

The LS dates from 1951 onwards, the MW from 1957 onwards, just to help with timeframes. Note the Hants & Dorset Tilling green with cream is virtually identical to what you would need for Eastern National, while the Wilts & Dorset Tilling red in cream would easily represent Eastern Counties (a little further north and east of Eastern National, with some overlap). Some of the EFE-style coaches were demoted to bus work later in their lives (1960s).

The Oxford Diecast MW coaches with later style ECW bodies with the wrap-around windscreens are probably getting a bit late for your requirements.


LBC Hants and Dorset Bristol MW some Transfers Added - 1 by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

 

DSCN2516 by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

 

Bristol LS coach cropped by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

 

LBC Bristol LS Coach in Newton Broadway cropped by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

 

Wilts and Dorset Bristol LS Experimental - 4 by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

[cravensdmufan]

5 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 

The RCLs were fitted with an 11.3 litre engine to travel at better speed (though at the slight cost of slower acceleration) than your average bus.  They were after all designed and for af ew years operated as coaches.  And yes they moved.  

 

Several are preserved and a few more remain operational with numerous operators.  Most are no longer in original condition as LT removed the luggage racks and platform doors when they bought them in the 80s.  Not all have had those modifications undone.  

Yes, I'd forgotten about the luggage racks. And were the seats slightly more reclined than normal buses? Maybe I'm imagining that!

 

They were really smart in their original livery. But IMO spoilt when transferred to NBC/LCBC. 

 

I'd love to see one in preservation one day. Might have to wait a while though.....

Edited March 27, 2020 by cravensdmufan
Spelling

[Izzy]

Growing up in Holland on sea I was always pleased to see the arrival of the ‘open deckers’ along the seafront between Holland/Clacton/Butlins/Jaywick as that signalled the start of the summer for me as a child. At that time there were no regular bus routes along it as until the early ‘60’s it was unmade past Clacton. All older type buses at first I seem to recall, and finished in all cream with a green stripe mid-height. The reverse of the normal EN livery.

 

Izzy

[PhilJ W]

The RCL's used the standard London Transport seat frames but they were spaced further apart and with deeper cushions. The RMA's had the same deep cushions and used the same very attractive grey/maroon moquette.

[cravensdmufan]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

Growing up in Holland on sea I was always pleased to see the arrival of the ‘open deckers’ along the seafront between Holland/Clacton/Butlins/Jaywick as that signalled the start of the summer for me as a child. At that time there were no regular bus routes along it as until the early ‘60’s it was unmade past Clacton. All older type buses at first I seem to recall, and finished in all cream with a green stripe mid-height. The reverse of the normal EN livery.

 

Izzy

Yes Izzy, I remember those nice ENOC open deckers at Clacton, and very smart they looked too.

 

As a treat one or twice each summer my Mum and Dad took me to Clacton on for the day by train (Class 309 in maroon livery from Shenfield, "front 4 cars for Kirby Cross, Frinton and Walton, rear 6 cars for Clacton").

 

Highlights of the day were a ride on the open deck bus, and lunch at Cordy's restaurant on the seafront.  White tablecloths and waitresses in black dresses and white aprons. 

 

Wonderful memories.

 

Edited March 27, 2020 by cravensdmufan
Spelling

[PhilJ W]

Mention of the open top buses reminded me that during the period in question the most common Eastern National open toppers were all Leyland PD1's or PD2's. These came from City Coaches of Brentwood who in the early 50's were taken over by Westcliffe-on-Sea, another Tilling company that was merged into Eastern National soon afterwards. 

[cravensdmufan]

47 minutes ago, cravensdmufan said:

Yes Izzy, I remember those nice ENOC open deckers at Clacton, and very smart they looked too.

 

As a treat one or twice each summer my Mum and Dad took me to Clacton on for the day by train (Class 309 in maroon livery from Shenfield, "front 4 cars for Kirby Cross, Frinton and Walton, rear 6 cars for Clacton").

 

Highlights of the day were a ride on the open deck bus, and lunch at Cordy's restaurant on the seafront.  White tablecloths and waitresses in black dresses and white aprons. 

 

Wonderful memories.

 

Ah, this topic is bringing back so many memories!

 

As well as a love of railways, I was enthusiastic about buses too. I used to visit Eastern National depots (and Eastern Counties when I could - Granny lived in Norwich) and my "bible" was this little book:-

 

Edited March 27, 2020 by cravensdmufan
Additional wording

[Gwiwer]

We too visited Clacton for holidays once the paternal grandparents retired there. At the time a week in a caravan at Jaywick Sands was ok. It’s a bit different today. 
 

The local buses then were K-types some of which had the sunken side top-deck gangway and four-seat benches. The open topper was a cut-down KSW and one of several similarly treated. I believe a couple have entered preservation. 
 

There were MW buses too. At the far end of the caravan site was the St. Osyth Beach terminus which we used once or twice. That was always am MW. 
 

The maroon class 309s were also a feature of those trips with the front 4 for Walton and rear 6 for Clacton. The latter featured a griddle car from which we refreshed ourselves whilst watching the Essex countryside dashing past the windows at quite high speeds. Those things were fast. 

[cravensdmufan]

5 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

We too visited Clacton for holidays once the paternal grandparents retired there. At the time a week in a caravan at Jaywick Sands was ok. It’s a bit different today. 
 

The local buses then were K-types some of which had the sunken side top-deck gangway and four-seat benches. The open topper was a cut-down KSW and one of several similarly treated. I believe a couple have entered preservation. 
 

There were MW buses too. At the far end of the caravan site was the St. Osyth Beach terminus which we used once or twice. That was always am MW. 
 

The maroon class 309s were also a feature of those trips with the front 4 for Walton and rear 6 for Clacton. The latter featured a griddle car from which we refreshed ourselves whilst watching the Essex countryside dashing past the windows at quite high speeds. Those things were fast. 

Yes very fast, and comfortable too.  NSE refurbishment totally spoilt them IMO.  I remember as a boy standing in the vestibule where the units were joined together.  You could see straight into the drivers cab and I watched the speedo which was often in the high 90's!

 

Anyway, back to buses.  Those K's with sunken gangway and bench seats upstairs were interesting.  I seem to remember the Brentwood ones had folding doors on the rear platform, something our LD's didn't have, unlike Eastern Counties.

[PhilJ W]

The cover photo was taken outside of Eastern Nationals Wood Green depot in east London. This was taken over from City coaches who ran what became the 251 service. Eastern National were not allowed to pick up on inward journeys within the London central (red buses) area or to set down on outward journeys. Wood Greens other claim to fame was it was also used as the 'Luxton and District' garage in the TV sitcom 'On the buses'. 

16 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

 

The local buses then were K-types some of which had the sunken side top-deck gangway and four-seat benches. The open topper was a cut-down KSW and one of several similarly treated. I believe a couple have entered preservation. 
 

 

The maroon class 309s were also a feature of those trips with the front 4 for Walton and rear 6 for Clacton. The latter featured a griddle car from which we refreshed ourselves whilst watching the Essex countryside dashing past the windows at quite high speeds. Those things were fast. 

An entire batch of about 10-12 KSW's were converted to open top. Eastern National made a proper job of it as well, removing the sunken gangway and rebuilding the lower deck ceiling, unlike Southend corporation who simply boarded over the sunken gangway and left it in place downstairs to catch the unwary.

The 309's were the first 100mph EMU's on BR and often achieved that speed on the 'race track' between Witham and Colchester.

Edited March 27, 2020 by PhilJ W

[Johann Marsbar]

ENOC Open top K at the Suffolk Showground in 1980......

 

 

and a preserved NBC liveried one at Clacton a few years back....

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Johann Marsbar

[Clive Mortimore]

When Eastern National acquired their Ford Transit Mini buses in the late 80s the drivers had to re-learn or was it revise their PSV licences as the transits had a manual gear box not a pre-select gearbox as found on modern buses. The old Bristol KSW open toppers were used for driving training and became a regular sight around Chelmsford.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Clive Mortimore

[cravensdmufan]

This one pictured at Clacton in 1978, according to the pier poster, even made it in service to carry the "double N" NBC logo along with it's lovely original Tilling cream/ green livery:

 

 https://images.app.goo.gl/K7n1sMRLPX8DCuhf9

 

IMO (NBC white / apple green as in Johann's photo above didn't suit quite so well, nonetheless fair play to NBC for keeping them running as long as they did. I guess it must have been worth their while - passengers loved them.

 

And here's another pictured in Southend in 1968 also looking great:

 

https://images.app.goo.gl/g36tLKMy9QYwg7aK6

 

Eastern National had style!

 

Great that some open toppers along with other old buses are beautifully preserved.

 

Looking forward to attending future bus rallies again someday.

 

[stewartingram]

7 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

ENOC Open top K at the Suffolk Showground in 1980......

 

 

and a preserved NBC liveried one at Clacton a few years back....

 

 

 

 

Actually a KSW - note the white steering wheel, denoting an 8' wide body.

 

Stewart

Edited March 27, 2020 by stewartingram

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

Actually a KSW - note the white steering wheel, denoting an 8' wide body.

 

Stewart

Also only 4 windows, not 5 as found on a K. The KSW was not only wider but longer by 6 inches. There were some KS buses which were 27 ft 6ins long and 7ft 6 ins wide. The S stood for short but there was never a KL (long), by the time double deckers were allowed to be 30 feet long Bristol was at the end of its KSW production so the first 30 ft Bristols were LDLs. Eastern National had some LDLs.

[PhilJ W]

The S in KSW stood for short but did not refer to the overall length of the bus but too the length of the bonnet. This was achieved by moving engine components from the front of the engine to the side. 

Edited March 28, 2020 by PhilJ W

[Johann Marsbar]

After Eastern National, some of those open toppers went on for use elsewhere. Forgot I took this photo in 1981of the one that Cullings had in Norwich...

 

 

Photo even shows (most) of what I took to be one of the remaining Norwich Electric Tramways traction poles on the right of the photo.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Johann Marsbar

[PhilJ W]

Many of the open top KSW5G's illustrated are from the batch I mentioned have been illustrated. They can be identified by their WNO 7** registrations. There were 10 in all converted to open top and 7 are known to survive. 

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

Many of the open top KSW5G's illustrated are from the batch I mentioned have been illustrated. They can be identified by their WNO 7** registrations. There were 10 in all converted to open top and 7 are known to survive. 

 

Ten was a generous and probably significant investment.  From memory the Clacton operation (Jaywick Sands - Holland-on-Sea) required only one bus, or maybe two though I recall it being only an hourly service, and probably had a spare allocated.  

 

Southend was busier and ENOC competed with the Corporation for sea-front traffic.  IIRC six were based there with four required for service between Shoeburyness (East Beach) and Leigh-on-Sea.  The Corporation added extra capacity between Thorpe Bay and Chalkwell.  All of those journeys passed beneath the Southend Pier bridge which was particularly low.  Instructions issued to crew were that "On approach the driver SHALL STOP.  The conductor is to rise to top stairs, ensure that all upper-deck passengers are seated, call a warning to remain so and then give the starting signal.  Drivers are to proceed AT WALKING PACE until the conductor gives another starting signal when clear of the bridge."  

 

The final late-night trip to Shoebury (open-toppers used to run until past midnight!) often loaded very heavily with those returning from Southend's Kursaal and was nicknamed the Kursaal Flyer taking that name from a road-train in operation from at least the 1950s.  The name was also later borrowed by a  Southend-based pop band the Kursaal Flyers.   https://www.britishpathe.com/video/southend-kursaal-flyer

[PhilJ W]

There KSW5G's were chosen for conversion to open toppers about 1960 when they were only 7 years old. Back then there was probably a greater need for open top vehicles in seaside resorts so perhaps 10 were needed. The WNO batch were the last side gangway low height buses taken into stock by ENOC, all subsequent orders were for Lodekkas. 

Edited March 28, 2020 by PhilJ W

[Andy Reichert]

On 27/03/2020 at 04:46, PhilJ W said:

The cover photo was taken outside of Eastern Nationals Wood Green depot in east London. This was taken over from City coaches who ran what became the 251 service. Eastern National were not allowed to pick up on inward journeys within the London central (red buses) area or to set down on outward journeys. Wood Greens other claim to fame was it was also used as the 'Luxton and District' garage in the TV sitcom 'On the buses'. 

An entire batch of about 10-12 KSW's were converted to open top. Eastern National made a proper job of it as well, removing the sunken gangway and rebuilding the lower deck ceiling, unlike Southend corporation who simply boarded over the sunken gangway and left it in place downstairs to catch the unwary.

The 309's were the first 100mph EMU's on BR and often achieved that speed on the 'race track' between Witham and Colchester.

 

When I was around 5 years old, my parents used to take me to Southend (Eastwood) from Walthamstow to visit Grandparents.  Although I was very young, I remember catching a (Brown?)  "City Coach" at a special signed stop on Forest Road, just west of Wood St., several times over maybe a year or two, before the route was taken over by Eastern National and the bus became green and cream, and a slightly more modern type. Sometime later, again over year or so, we had to travel to Wood Green instead to catch it. We were still using the EN service by the time I was a pre-teen, but by then there were at least one or two bus type upgrades.

 

No reliable tech information, but the topic brought back some nice memories of some long gone Essex life. Especially seeing the large numbers of cattle in Romford market and the interesting scenery at "Battlesbridge". And the various Southend Corporation buses when we were there. They even had their own trolleybuses then. But it was a long tortuous route that took 2 and half hours just from Walthamstow to Kent Elms corner. I was always glad when it was over.

 

Andy 

[PhilJ W]

Do you remember the six wheel coaches operated by City and for a while after the take over by EN? The most unusual were the Leyland Gnu's with two axles at the front.

[cravensdmufan]

Good few nice photos of Eastern Nationals here:

https://flickriver.com/groups/eastern_national_omnibus_company/pool/interesting/