50s/60s Britain and Now

[Nearholmer]

Perhaps train operators could be mandated by DFT to paint their trains ‘plum and spilt milk’, after all LT mandates traditional(ish) red for buses.

[meil]

On 28/04/2020 at 08:26, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Another example. The expert witness, an eminent doctor, who took to the witness stand and said that because the chance of having a child die from cot death was 1:1,000, the chances of having three was 1:1,000,000,000 and that therefore the defendant must be guilty of homicide. How did such obvious nonsense get past a judge, several barristers and twelve jurors?

That's because he may have been an expert in medicine but he wasn't a mathematician, but you are correct the judge should have questioned it as well as the Defence. She was let down very badly - she was eventually released but died, quite young, shortly afterwards I believe.

 

However this case is well known in statistical circles as to the dangers involved of poorly understood statistical techniques.

[Reorte]

20 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Perhaps train operators could be mandated by DFT to paint their trains ‘plum and spilt milk’, after all LT mandates traditional(ish) red for buses.

 

For some reason I've never found that many of those two-colour coach liveries work for me (not really keen on the BR Blue one either, I like seeing it purely out of a bit of nostalgia).

[Colin]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I'm no plane enthusiast, but those are cracking liveries, gives a hint of thought in their design.

 

Mike.

Bit like railway liveries really, IMHO even the much maligned rail blue is an improvement on the horrid clashing colours and random streaks inflicted on modern stock.

[soony]

Just quietly perusing this thread and it jogged my memory. There was a radio program favourite of mine - a science fiction program , once a week, on what was the equivalent of radio 4 today, with a sound effects bonanza from the BBC radiophonic workshops. I have never been able to remember the name of the prog, but always thought it was " A for Andromeda", but it doesnt fit todays Google searches, anyone else remember that prog in about 1957-1962, when I was using a crystal set-

you havent lived till you have tried wiring the bedsprings to a few electronioc components.!

 

Book at Bedtime --- Ahhhhhh

[rockershovel]

14 minutes ago, soony said:

Just quietly perusing this thread and it jogged my memory. There was a radio program favourite of mine - a science fiction program , once a week, on what was the equivalent of radio 4 today, with a sound effects bonanza from the BBC radiophonic workshops. I have never been able to remember the name of the prog, but always thought it was " A for Andromeda", but it doesnt fit todays Google searches, anyone else remember that prog in about 1957-1962, when I was using a crystal set-

you havent lived till you have tried wiring the bedsprings to a few electronioc components.!

 

Book at Bedtime --- Ahhhhhh

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_for_Andromeda

[rockershovel]

26 minutes ago, Colin said:

Bit like railway liveries really, IMHO even the much maligned rail blue is an improvement on the horrid clashing colours and random streaks inflicted on modern stock.

 

The local service operators, in particular, seem to have the effect of confusing and alienating their users, and passing completely un-noticed by an uncaring public.

 

There seems to have been no general enthusiasm for, or interest in the privatisation process and once it failed to deliver the only thing the public expect of the railways - a reliable service with a simple, unified booking system - the whole matter was beyond repair. The GWR branding, complete with “Famous Five” style adverts, or the revival of the LNER name (which basically means “Flying Scotsman” to the public at large) are a clear testimony to the absence of belief in successful progress ...

 

Painting EMU and DMU like soft drink cans certainly won’t help. 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by rockershovel

[Philou]

@billy_anorak59 Ah Speke Airport (or if we're being 50s and 60s -shouldn't that be aeroport where aeroplanes live?).

It was there that Cambrian Airways had their only fatal air crash. It was a freight operation and fortunately (unfortunately) the losses were limited to the four crew aboard.

 

One fact that I was unaware of until very recently (Mrs Philou worked in insurance so had access to the statstics) was that in the 50s and 60s, 10% of flights didn't make it to their destination. Possibly thanks to jet aircraft production and advanced technologies you can now expect to fly for millions of miles without harm.

 

Regarding Concorde, I seem to recall it was created through a need of faster and faster (TGV being rail, motorways road-borne etc.). What scuppered it was the Americans couldn't get their Boeing out of the door fast enough and knew they were beaten (though theirs was bigger and faster - American bragging rights) AND what was the knockout punch was the terrestrial sonic boom. They conducted a 30 day trial over one city (might have been Cincinnati) and there was so much damage (broken windows etc.) and the sudden 'BANG' that they decided that no supersonic aircraft would permitted overland in the USA. So that killed that.

 

BTW whilst we Brits considered that Concorde was the first - it wasn't - Concordski was up in the air first, but only by a small margin.

 

Ah yes Carruthers, the Empress flying boat. I can't imagine what would have happened if the UK had followed the flying-boat path - I think Birmingham is the largest town furthest away from a coast-line (Barry Island being the closest beach?) - alright for us having a huge coast-line but what happens if you want to get further inland - thinks Hungary or Denver? Also imagine you arrive at Southampton and the weather is a bit rough - taken by lighter in choppy water - uuurgh! - and the same on arrival at destination. Give me terra firma every time.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[caradoc]

4 hours ago, Lantavian said:

 

A triumph  ... using hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money to create subsidise travel for some of the world's richest people.

 

But at least Concorde allowed Phil Collins to appear at Live Aid both in the UK and the USA on the same day in 1985, so the money wasn't entirely wasted........

 

33 minutes ago, Colin said:

Bit like railway liveries really, IMHO even the much maligned rail blue is an improvement on the horrid clashing colours and random streaks inflicted on modern stock.

 

Yet I recall the moans about how boring liveries (or rather, the livery) were under BR, and the excitement when even minor variations such as a white stripe on a loco appeared. Personally I like distinctive liveries, if done well and for a good reason, eg Scotrail (which is non-franchise dictated).

 

[Philou]

Regarding the current train liveries - I like the GWR green (but I would say that, wouldn't I?) and the LNER blue. I'm not sure if it's an age thing and quiet reflection of things gone past. I DO think though that most of the colour schemes of today (one or two exceptions) beat hands down blood'n'custard, all-over maroon and, if I'm honest, even the original GWR chocolate and cream.

 

One scheme that doesn't work (for me) is white - thinks Transport for Wales - the Arriva Wales blue/pale yellow wasn't bad.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Reorte]

12 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

The GWR branding, complete with “Famous Five” style adverts, or the revival of the LNER name (which basically means “Flying Scotsman” to the public at large) are a clear testimony to the absence of belief in successful progress ...

 

I see it more as just using something that (might) work. The modern railway might all be very practical but (like many things) there's nothing particularly exotic or romantic about it, so use something that carries that impression. Whether or not the reality of it was anything of the sort doesn't matter, although the marketing of the time liked to pretend it was, and I suppose it might've been the case for a couple of services which were at least 50% PR exercises.

[Reorte]

4 minutes ago, Philou said:

Regarding the current train liveries - I like the GWR green (but I would say that, wouldn't I?) and the LNER blue. I'm not sure if it's an age thing and quiet reflection of things gone past. I DO think though that most of the colour schemes of today (one or two exceptions) beat hands down blood'n'custard, all-over maroon and, if I'm honest, even the original GWR chocolate and cream.

 

One scheme that doesn't work (for me) is white - thinks Transport for Wales - the Arriva Wales blue/pale yellow wasn't bad.

White just looks like they've forgotten the trip to the paint shop (or vinyl application). I agree with you about GWR Green and LNER Blue but I also like maroon. Chocolate and cream was probably the best of the two-tone liveries but I'm ambivalent towards it. Inter-City swallow was good (and I suppose quite a large two-tone aspect to that, maybe I prefer it if the upper section is the darker one).

 

I quite like the DRS compass livery, and don't like anything that could be described as "garish."

[Nearholmer]

We could debate liveries all day (which would be good, except that I'm supposed to be working!).

 

I don't like either of the two dark liveries, GWR current green, or the LNER one, because they look so incredibly drab under typically overcast skies, and only "pop" in bright sunshine. Overall marooon in normal service condition would need the light of ten suns to make it look cheerful!

 

The DfT mandated white looks terrible very quickly, and was surely only meant to be an "anti-branding" anyway; deliberately not anything.

 

Well maintained 'blood and custard', using modern paints that don't discolour quickly, I still defend on grounds of dignity and being reasonably cheerful, ditto Southern malachite. Didn't Strathcltde PTE use something close to B&C, possibly a more raspberry red?

 

"Toybox" colours can look good if done well, NS yellow has stood the test of time for instance, ditto current London Underground livery, which is now probably thirty years old.

 

The railways that I can't understand are the Japanese ones that have a livery for each stock-type (does it key to the route?), and SNCF, who seem to be too creative for their own good, resulting in a bit of a mess.

[Reorte]

14 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I don't like either of the two dark liveries, GWR current green, or the LNER one, because they look so incredibly drab under typically overcast skies, and only "pop" in bright sunshine. Overall marooon in normal service condition would need the light of ten suns to make it look cheerful!

 

That's why livery arguments are as old as paint, different people just like different things from them. Some like cheerful, others find it tacky. Some like smart and dignified, others find it dull and depressing.

 

But maybe we all agree the white is rubbish!

[Nearholmer]

There's a funny story in O V S Bulleid's son's biography of him, about how he used a 'livery parade' at Waterloo to distract and bamboozle the Board, and the same went-on multiple times on other railways. Br consumed a lot of time and paint on it in 1948/49 with several livery parades. 

 

Even the London Underground livery that I mentioned got hotly debated at board level and the model that was displayed to advocate it lurked in the Boardroom as an ornament for decades, along with a 1/10th scale waste-paper bin design-model, long after that particular room ceased to be used for Board meetings ........ the building is now being re-developed, so the model has probably gone to the LT Museum now.

 

As you say, everyone has an opinion; many people have several conflicting opinions.

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

 

I see it more as just using something that (might) work. The modern railway might all be very practical but (like many things) there's nothing particularly exotic or romantic about it, so use something that carries that impression. Whether or not the reality of it was anything of the sort doesn't matter, although the marketing of the time liked to pretend it was, and I suppose it might've been the case for a couple of services which were at least 50% PR exercises.

 

the public quite liked BR, on the whole. There were running jokes about the catering, but it wasn't a bad railway and it had things the public could engage with - job security and on the whole, a reliable service. Everyone knew someone who worked on the railway. 

 

Pre-Grouping railwaymen had real status, and people responded to that. Grouping era railways were an island of (relative) job security and good pensions, amid the general gloom, and there was the whole Mallard/fastest loco ballyhoo. 

 

The modern privatised railway don't have anything to engage the public WITH. Their booking systems can be quite complex, occasionally dysfunctional and sometimes, remarkably expensive. Some (although by no means all) operators are pretty poor, notably XC. 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

17 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

Everyone knew someone who worked on the railway

 

Which is rather symptomatic of a problem that it wrestled with from 1948 to at least 1978 (picking a year at random): too many staff.

 

I'm not suggesting that everyone was slacking, although I saw a fair bit of that in the first few years i worked for BR, but a lot of the way things were done was determined by a combination of outdated technology and outdated service patterns that  required a huge number of people, and took decades to modernise.

 

26 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

The modern privatised railway don't have anything to engage the public WITH.

 

Very much agree. The Railway has ceased to exist as an institution, and privatisation has removed any sense of ownership from the public at large (does anyone feel they own a stake in Network Rail, even though they do?).

 

Whether that is a good, bad, or neutral thing, I don't know, but the relationship now is purely transactional, and for the occasional user often poorly mediated .......... up until the present difficulty, that didn't stop people using it though.

[St Enodoc]

11 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

a combination of outdated technology and outdated service patterns that  required a huge number of people, and took decades to modernise.

And outdated working practices.

[Nearholmer]

I was being charitable, and assuming that they were a function of the technology ....... which some were, but, in truth, many weren’t.

[62613]

3 hours ago, soony said:

Just quietly perusing this thread and it jogged my memory. There was a radio program favourite of mine - a science fiction program , once a week, on what was the equivalent of radio 4 today, with a sound effects bonanza from the BBC radiophonic workshops. I have never been able to remember the name of the prog, but always thought it was " A for Andromeda", but it doesnt fit todays Google searches, anyone else remember that prog in about 1957-1962, when I was using a crystal set-

you havent lived till you have tried wiring the bedsprings to a few electronioc components.!

 

Book at Bedtime --- Ahhhhhh

Quatermass?

 

[Reorte]

49 minutes ago, Lantavian said:

 

That made me laugh out loud.

 

The public hated BR.

 

It was often the butt of jokes but I don't remember (at least in the days I was old enough to remember it) getting quite the level of visceral hatred that the railway seem to often be on the receiving end of these days. Mind you that could equally just be a shift in societal responses in general and nothing specific to the railway; there's an awful lot of "if it's not my idea of perfect it's unforgivable rubbish and everyone involved is utter scum." I suppose I'm no different alas, I just have a different idea about perfection

Edited May 1, 2020 by Reorte

[Philou]

I'm not sure it was the public as much that didn't like BR, but the grubbymint - who still don't perceive that it there to be used by the public as a service - especially with the move against cars being the mode of transport de rigueur in major towns and cities. Mrs Thatcher hated the railways. Ernest Marples as Transport Minister had transport interests, yes, but in road building.

 

Don't worry though - several friends from France whom have been to the UK have expressed some marvel at the UK network compared to the French one. The Parisian RER and Metro are BAD. Filthy, crusty seats and everywhere smells of wee. The only upside it does run to time (when not on strike ). Now if only those umpteen billions spent on the TGV had been spent on the 'classic' and urban lines instead, they really would be top dog. The TGV quite frankly is rubbish, quite expensive and doesn't go where you need to go. UKRail has nothing to be ashamed - it moves millions of people everyday - perhaps not in the best of conditions - but it does it.

 

Back to the 50s and 60s - whilst there may have been some romanticism regarding steam - it was dirty, smelly and slow and those that worked on and off shed had a pretty hard time of it. I like my kettles (in model form) but I have little interest in the real thing other to look at it from a mechanical point of view.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, Devo63 said:

By any chance are you related to the well known military shirker Major Dennis Bloodnock late of the 3rd Disgusting Fusiliers?

'Large sums of money were in his care.  They were never seen again'; sounds like some of my relatives, certainly.  Bloodnok is more like us that, say, Grytpype Thynne.  There were palpable elements of Bluebottle, cardboard and string cutout hero, about me when I was that age.

 

4 hours ago, soony said:

you havent lived till you have tried wiring the bedsprings to a few electronioc components.!

 

 

I can only hope that you are referring to radio listening practices, otherwise there are probably websites that cater for that sort of thing.  Oooerr, missis...

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, caradoc said:

But at least Concorde allowed Phil Collins to appear at Live Aid both in the UK and the USA on the same day in 1985, so the money wasn't entirely wasted........

Would this be the same Thatcher government supporting Phil Collins who made millions for himself out of a song about homeless people and then decamped to Switzerland as a tax exile so that none of his wealth could be squandered on funding a social security system that might have helped them. None of the proceeds ever got spent on the homeless, but Collins claimed he was 'raising awareness'; yeah, Phil, all the way to the bank.  Despicable man, fair percussionist. 

 

I'd say this is a prime example of a waste of money, although I believe BA gave him a free seat, wasting their money.

[Reorte]

42 minutes ago, Philou said:

Back to the 50s and 60s - whilst there may have been some romanticism regarding steam - it was dirty, smelly and slow and those that worked on and off shed had a pretty hard time of it. I like my kettles (in model form) but I have little interest in the real thing other to look at it from a mechanical point of view.

 

That was the time steam was really being run down mind you, which surely affects the perception. Not that I mind slow (or even smelly, to a degree, depends what exactly the smell is...)  Certainly going a long way in the other direction puts me off immensely. There's a balancing point in there somewhere.