East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Daddyman]

Thanks, Chas. I think my comment was unclear - I meant that there didn't seem to be much evidence to suggest one cab door was fitted to D.96s, and another type to D.97s - both types seem to have appeared on both Dias.   

 

I meant to ask you about the roof, which was another stumbling block for me. I've scanned through the thread (nice buffers!) and see you're using an aluminium roof (sorry, time hasn't allowed me to read all the text yet). Is this to the correct profile? Do you have radii for the roof on the Isinglass drawing?  

[Chas Levin]

3 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Thanks, Chas. I think my comment was unclear - I meant that there didn't seem to be much evidence to suggest one cab door was fitted to D.96s, and another type to D.97s - both types seem to have appeared on both Dias.   

 

I meant to ask you about the roof, which was another stumbling block for me. I've scanned through the thread (nice buffers!) and see you're using an aluminium roof (sorry, time hasn't allowed me to read all the text yet). Is this to the correct profile? Do you have radii for the roof on the Isinglass drawing?  

Morning - yes, fully agreed about inter-diagram cross-door mixing, but that's something I've noticed with various features. I think it's down to us approaching things as historian-modellers looking for consistent patterns, where at the time they were just building what they needed, varying things according to available materials etc.

I wasn't clear either: I took those photos as proof that some Dia 96 definitely had plain doors so I'm therefore safe fitting them to mine.

 

For the roof, I spent some time looking at available options and comparing the aluminium products with Isinglass and - as far as I could - with photos, although I lacked a truly head-on view - that section starts on page 46 of this thread. Although the ally option I chose isn't perfect, it's very close, closer than anything else I've so far found, so it's the choice for now…

I think the Isinglass includes radius notes for the roof - I'll look when I'm back home later and add them here… 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

12 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Do you have radii for the roof on the Isinglass drawing?  

 

Sorry David, my memory was at fault, no radii shown. There may be enough dimensions shown on the drawing to work it out though, have to investigate that further...

[Daddyman]

12 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Sorry David, my memory was at fault, no radii shown. There may be enough dimensions shown on the drawing to work it out though, have to investigate that further...

Hmm. The Isinglass drawings are so ....sketchy, and the lines so thick, that they only really work as sources of dimensions, not as drawings that can be scaled off or used as templates, etc. In my early modelling days I tried to scale off them - photocopied them and used them as overlays when cutting parts out - with truly horrific results. Then somebody pointed out the real benefit of them: unlike most drawings, which excise them, the Isinglass include dimensions; as far as I'm concerned, the sketches just come along for the ride. But the dimensions come and go (as here on the Sentinel roof), and where there are no dimensions, I don't trust them. 

Surely the radii must be known? I think this is another thing that stopped me with my model. I had a desultory look on the OPC drawings catalogue at the NRM, and there were one or two things that might fit the bill. Has anyone investigated? 

 

 

 

[Chas Levin]

7 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Hmm. The Isinglass drawings are so ....sketchy, and the lines so thick, that they only really work as sources of dimensions, not as drawings that can be scaled off or used as templates, etc. In my early modelling days I tried to scale off them - photocopied them and used them as overlays when cutting parts out - with truly horrific results. Then somebody pointed out the real benefit of them: unlike most drawings, which excise them, the Isinglass include dimensions; as far as I'm concerned, the sketches just come along for the ride. But the dimensions come and go (as here on the Sentinel roof), and where there are no dimensions, I don't trust them. 

Surely the radii must be known? I think this is another thing that stopped me with my model. I had a desultory look on the OPC drawings catalogue at the NRM, and there were one or two things that might fit the bill. Has anyone investigated?

 

I know some people aren't fans of the Isinglass drawings and that their accuracy is sometimes criticised, but I find them very helpful in a number of ways, not least as a general overview of the vehicle and a way of organising my thoughts about construction. They also have a great deal of information about details, dimensions as you say, numbers, batch variations and so forth and even where lines are thick or details slightly disproportionate, they often provide information about where and how things sit together.

I can't help on the Sentinel roof radii though; I'm going with the aluminium as I think it's close enough for jazz, though I'm not looking forward to forming the ends, sawcuts and all!

[Jol Wilkinson]

8 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Hmm. The Isinglass drawings are so ....sketchy, and the lines so thick, that they only really work as sources of dimensions, not as drawings that can be scaled off or used as templates, etc. In my early modelling days I tried to scale off them - photocopied them and used them as overlays when cutting parts out - with truly horrific results. Then somebody pointed out the real benefit of them: unlike most drawings, which excise them, the Isinglass include dimensions; as far as I'm concerned, the sketches just come along for the ride. But the dimensions come and go (as here on the Sentinel roof), and where there are no dimensions, I don't trust them. 

Surely the radii must be known? I think this is another thing that stopped me with my model. I had a desultory look on the OPC drawings catalogue at the NRM, and there were one or two things that might fit the bill. Has anyone investigated? 

 

 

 

If you have some confidence in a drawing it is worth working out the radius from that. Then you can probably define the actual radius by applying a bit of Victorian/Edwardian logic if the model is from those periods. Generally speaking, the designers worked in round feet, with six inch or even three inch variations. So roof radii of eight feet, eight feet six inches or nine feet were normal.

 

The same logic probably apply to the post group period, but I am sure someone will provide some "odd" examples.

[Chas Levin]

Going purely visually, the Sentinel railcar roofs look to me to be very similar to other contemporary LNER roofs, otherwise, the extruded aluminium ones like the one I'm using wouldn't even be close and the match was pretty good when I tried it superimposed on the drawing and photos, further upthread. But I'd be the first to admit that was unscientific and done without calculation...

[Chas Levin]

I'm currently working on the mounting method for the Sentinel's unpowered bogie and also on a way pf producing the 30 body pillar bases to a uniform shape, but both those jobs need some more thought, so in the meantime I thought I'd make a start on the floorpan/chassis structure.

I had some difficulty understanding what to do and some difficulty finding answers online, so I thought it worth covering in a little detail, in case anyone else has the same problem, as I think I've worked it out.

The Worsley Works etches don't come with instructions and I wasn't initially sure how the floor / sides / ends construction worked from just looking at the etches, so I asked Allen Doherty of WW and he explained that all his etches follow the Comet Coaches system and he sent me their 'Building Coaches the Comet Way' pdf (which is also on Wizard Models' site by the way). That has detailed descriptions, but I still didn't quite get it; the pdf also has photos but - without meaning to sound critical - I found them too small, too cropped and too indistinct. I realise that's partly down to my eyesight and lack of experience!

No problem, I thought: there'll be heaps of Comet coach builds online and I'll be able to find photos of what happens with the side flanges and the solebars, which goes up, which goes down and so forth.

Actually, no: from what I can tell, everyone who builds Comet coach kits either already knows what to do with the floorpan and related areas or, if they don't, they figure it out but keep quiet about it. Either that, or my online search techniques are poorer than I realise!

So, for the benefit of anyone else who gets stuck at this early point in building a coach body the Comet way, here's how I think this part of it works, and the first thing to do is to detach the floorpan from the main etch, but leaving the floor joined to the side flanges that run immediately alongside it and are connected to it by half-etch tabs:

 

 

Those side flanges are then folded upwards, with the half-etch lines on the inside of the folds:

 

 

 

 

Usually, you'd be dealing with a flat, unadorned floorpan and you could make those right-angled folds using folding bars or a hold-and-fold, but because I have the cranked floor area already in place, I found I could only get to about 60 degrees with the hold-and-fold. By that point however, you can hold the floor with a piece of wood along it to keep it straight, while the flange is kept flat on the work surface and the floorpan is pushed up to the required 90 degrees:

 

 

Turning back to the freshly gutted etch, the two solebar strips are now detached:

 

 

The floorpan is then turned upside-down and I used a piece of scrap wood to support it from the actual floor surface, rather than resting it on the freshly folded flanges. I'll reinforce those folds with solder in due course, but their eventual function is to sit inside the bottoms of the sides and until I know exactly what angle the flanges need to be to fit snugly, I'm leaving them as is.

The Worsley etches are very accurately produced and tabs on each solebar drop very easily into the slots in the floorpan:

 

 

Both solebar strips are then soldered into place. The tabs are almost exactly the right length not to need their tops filing down flush on the upper floorpan surface, another nice touch:

 

 

 

 

As a furthrer check, the cab end pieces fit quite neatly at the ends of the folded up flange pieces, which seems to confirm that this is the way it's meant to work:

 

 

 

Needless to say, if anyone reading this sees I've still got it wrong, please let me know!

Edited October 15, 2023 by Chas Levin

[micklner]

Try this one

 

 

 

 

[Chas Levin]

56 minutes ago, micklner said:

Try this one

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Mick; I'm left a bit puzzle by that one though, as he seems to misunderstand the function of the floor edge flanges too, but differently to the way I did - he initially leaves them horizontal, sticking out all the way along the sides.

Then, they come and go in various shots, presumably because he filmed in a different order to the final edit, but he doesn't seem to mention when and how he discovered the mistake, even during the end part, where he lists 'lessons learned'. I guess he realised they were wrong and cut and filed them off, as he'd already soldered the sides to the floor by then.

Reassuring viewing though, as I'm clearly not the only one to be puzzled.

 

I'd managed to find a handful of photos of others' builds where you could just about see which way they'd folded the flanges and how the solebars fitted, but it was still a bit of a guessing game. Yet it seems so simple once it's done and writing the post about it made it seem even simpler!

Edited October 15, 2023 by Chas Levin

[micklner]

Chas ,

          I only gave a quick skim over the video contents. I have never built the Comet LNER kits as I prefer the LNER MJT version kits, so I cant comment any further re building them.

         I have just noticed that Wizard now want £1.50 for the Comet Book, which used to be free on the old Comet site. Perhaps the Wizard version has better/updated photos than the Worsley version ?. I suggest contact the Wizard owner he is helpful.

[Chas Levin]

Just now, micklner said:

Chas ,

          I only gave a quick skim over the video contents. I have never built the Comet LNER kits as I prefer the LNER MJT version kits, so I cant comment any further re building them.

         I have just noticed that Wizard now want £1.50 for the Comet Book, which used to be free on the old Comet site. Perhaps the Wizard version has better/updated photos than the Worsley version ?. I suggest contact the Wizard owner he is helpful.

 

Thanks Mick, I know Andrew at Wizard too and yes, he's extremely helpful! You're right too that the price of the booklet has gone from £1 to £1.50, but I believe that's for a printed copy because you can download it for free.

I had downloaded it quite a long time ago, when it was the older £1 version, thinking I might one day need it and when I started building this vehicle I downloaded the newer £1.50 version too. I then compared them very carefully and while there were some differences, with some areas covered in more detail, the floorpan/side flange/solebar areas weren't covered any differently and they re-used the same photos.

 

I'm 90% sure I've done it the right way; the solebars look to be in the right place and the sides should sit outside the folded up flanges OK, with the ends sitting on the floorpan ends and forming part of the cab areas: we shall see when I get to that point in the build!

[Chas Levin]

I also checked the ride height, now that the solebars are in place:

 

 

It's a hair low, going by the Isinglass drawing, where the solebar obscures the tops of the wheel flanges but not the tyres, but a slightly thicker PTFE washer will cure that.

 

Going back to the body pillar bases, I need to find a way to file thirty 3mm long pieces of 1mm x 1mm brass angle, to take one side down to a slope - in the sketch below, the idea is to file the piece on the left to look like the piece on the right:

 

 

Has anyone got any ideas for a jig to do that please? I've been thinking about it for a few days but haven't come up with anything yet...

Edited October 15, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

Another question for the more experienced modellers please: looking at mounting options for the Judith Edge unpowered bogie, as it's a rigid build, I've been thinking about including some small amount of compensation. I don't want to get into major reconstruction, pivot bars etc, but I thought that perhaps a slightly domed rubbing plate on top of the bogie might provide movement in a variety of planes. The Black Beetle at the powered end is essentially rigid, so I'd then have a crude version of three-legged compensation: has anyone else tried domes for this purpose? I'm sure I've noticed a domed rubbing plate on the odd RTR coach bogie so I think it's been done...

[cctransuk]

4 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Another question for the more experienced modellers please: looking at mounting options for the Judith Edge unpowered bogie, as it's a rigid build, I've been thinking about including some small amount of compensation. I don't want to get into major reconstruction, pivot bars etc, but I thought that perhaps a slightly domed rubbing plate on top of the bogie might provide movement in a variety of planes. The Black Beetle at the powered end is essentially rigid, so I'd then have a crude version of three-legged compensation: has anyone else tried domes for this purpose? I'm sure I've noticed a domed rubbing plate on the odd RTR coach bogie so I think it's been done...

 

All my self-build coaches have a functional rubbing plate at one end, and a small washer, which allows pivoting in all planes, at the other.

 

It works perfectly, giving rock-steady running and great track-holding.

 

Sometimes, it pays not to over-think thes things!

 

CJI.

[Jon4470]

11 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

 

Has anyone got any ideas for a jig to do that please? 

Unhelpful comment alert…….nope😁

 

I couldn’t think of anything easy for a jig……so I ended up using plastic right angle section. Definitely not as fine as brass….and my cutting was not always accurate….. but it looks ok in situ.

 

To remedy the lack of photos of underframes…..

 

One of my Comet ones here

 

And the MJT version here (unfinished)

 

 

Both have the same principle, with an upstand to support the sides and the solebars fitted to the other side of the floor plan and slightly inboard. Like @micklnerI also prefer the MJT type. I find it easier to form and to solder- and  I also think the MJT version is slightly finer. It’s all fairly marginal though.

 

Jon

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

All my self-build coaches have a functional rubbing plate at one end, and a small washer, which allows pivoting in all planes, at the other.

 

It works perfectly, giving rock-steady running and great track-holding.

 

Sometimes, it pays not to over-think thes things!

 

CJI.

 

Thanks John, I suspect that a small washer presents a fairly similar surface - and therefore produces a similar action - to a domed rubbing plate, so I should hopefully end up with the same result.

 

Yes, sometimes it does pay not to over-think; I greatly enjoy over-thinking though, turning problems over in my mind, imagining different solutions. It helps keep me sane - or at least, I think it does! 😉

[cctransuk]

5 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Thanks John, I suspect that a small washer presents a fairly similar surface - and therefore produces a similar action - to a domed rubbing plate, so I should hopefully end up with the same result.

 

Yes, sometimes it does pay not to over-think; I greatly enjoy over-thinking though, turning problems over in my mind, imagining different solutions. It helps keep me sane - or at least, I think it does! 😉

 

The trouble with over-thinking is that it can lead to over-complex solutions, which, in turn, can lead to unnecessary problems / frustrations. Moreover, it takes up valuable modelling time!

 

I am a firm believer in the KISS principle - Keep It Simple, Stupid! 😀

 

CJI.

Edited October 16, 2023 by cctransuk

[Chas Levin]

51 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

Unhelpful comment alert…….nope😁

 

I couldn’t think of anything easy for a jig……so I ended up using plastic right angle section. Definitely not as fine as brass….and my cutting was not always accurate….. but it looks ok in situ.

 

To remedy the lack of photos of underframes…..

 

One of my Comet ones here

 

And the MJT version here (unfinished)

 

 

Both have the same principle, with an upstand to support the sides and the solebars fitted to the other side of the floor plan and slightly inboard. Like @micklnerI also prefer the MJT type. I find it easier to form and to solder- and  I also think the MJT version is slightly finer. It’s all fairly marginal though.

 

Jon

 

Thanks Jon; re. pillar bases, I did think about plastic and that'll be my back-up option, but I'd prefer brass if I can do it. I considered cutting all the 3mm lengths, soldering them in rows of perhaps 10 to a piece of scrap brass and then filing them in batches, to help achieve uniformity, but I think that may be too fiddly with such small sized brass angle, so I've gone back to looking at some sort of stand with a sloping metal guide, where the end of the piece of angle can put put up against it and filed correctly, then cut off and the fresh end moved up to be filed...

 

Thank you very much too for the Comet and MJT floorpan pictures: they both confirm that I've done it the right way, don't they? If I'd seen either one of them before, I'd have know immediately, but no problem: it was enjoyable figuring it out and between us, we've now improved the online information store on this question considerably!

[Chas Levin]

7 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

The trouble with over-thinking is that it can lead to over-complex solutions, which, in turn, can lead to unnecessary problems / frustrations. Moreover, it takes up valuable modelling time!

 

I am a firm believer in the KISS principle - Keep It Simple, Stupid! 😀

 

CJI.

 

You're right, of course - over-complex solutions are the most serious and undesirable consequence and it's sometimes a fine line to tread. But, on the other side of that fine line, there are sometimes clever, elegant and satisfying solutions that give pleasure each time you look at them or use them: I am ever hopeful!

 

Trying to think of other solutions is also a good way of feeling you're getting some modelling time in, when you can't physically be at the bench. Some days, I can't do any actual construction but I might work out a solution to something in my mind and still feel that I've made progress 🙂🙃😃.

[Jon4470]

43 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

 

 

Thank you very much too for the Comet and MJT floorpan pictures: they both confirm that I've done it the right way, don't they? If I'd seen either one of them before, I'd have know immediately, but no problem: it was enjoyable figuring it out and between us, we've now improved the online information store on this question considerably!

 

No problem.
Yes, you have it correct ……unless we both have got it wrong😃 

 

One thing that did occur to me though, is that the upstand may need to be cut to allow any inset doors to fit. You can see that on the Comet floor plan where the upstand have been removed for the first 15mm or so. It’s a thing to watch out for….along with space for brackets, compartments etc

 

Jon

[Chas Levin]

51 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

 

No problem.
Yes, you have it correct ……unless we both have got it wrong😃 

Ha - don't say that!!! No, just kidding: it was one of those things that immediately seemed right once I'd worked it out, so much so that I cound't understand why I'd found it difficult to start with.

 

52 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

One thing that did occur to me though, is that the upstand may need to be cut to allow any inset doors to fit. You can see that on the Comet floor plan where the upstand have been removed for the first 15mm or so. It’s a thing to watch out for….along with space for brackets, compartments etc

Now that is a very good point, Sir! That's the voice of experience speaking, isn't it? One of the reasons I'd delayed tackling the folding / solebar soldering was to try and think of anything else that might be dependent / related, but easier to do in the flat: I didn't think of doors.

 

That being said, there'll be a false floor going on top of the floorpan, so the amount that may need to come off the top of the upstand at various points can't be judged until that's in, so I guess I couldn't have done the gaps in advance anyway... 🤔. I'll keep telling myself that...

[Chas Levin]

A weekend away in Norwich included scouring not just our usual three bookshops but also a previously undiscovered fourth one, which turned out to have a considerable railway section, where I found these two:

 

 

I've so far read 'British Steam Railcars' which provides an interesting overview of the introduction and service of railcars including the Sentinels, but little in the way of specific info about the LNER stable. One thing I learned though is that the GNR had half a dozen railcars, in the earlier period of their use, before the First World War. I didn't know that and with my GNR modelling hat on, I think one of them might make an interesting project in the future...

[Chas Levin]

Next up in the railcar build is my quest to make and try out a domed rubbing plate to sit on top of the unpowered bogie, the one made from the Judith Edge ES1 kit.

I thought the brass for it should be no thinner than 0.4 mm for strength and therefore turned to a vice, a couple of wide washers and a dome-topped mirror screw:

 

By mounting the screw in the wooden block and compressing it against the brass - with some fairly rigid foam behind it - I produced something fairly promising on the third attempt, having discovered the crucial necessity of the correct alignment of the domed screw during the first couple of tries:

 

 

 

 

 

Viewed side-on, the height (/depth) should be just enough to give some all-round movement against the underside of the floor, when it's mounted on the bogie:

 

 

[Chas Levin]

Leaving the piece long for the time being as it's easier to work on that way, I gave what will be the rubbing surface a polish with some sticks by mounting it in a drill:

 

 

Needing to mount a 10BA nut underneath the centre hole in exact aligment with the hole and also as near perfectly perpendicular to the centre surface area of the bulge as possible, I thought that threading a bolt through it from the other side would be the best way to hold the nut where it needed to be and in order to prevent the bolt getting soldered too, I thought I'd try using brass blacking as a way of excluding solder, something I've read about but not tried and guess what: it works, really well and with the - IMHO huge - advantage over oil that it doesn't spread anywhere:

 

 

 

For the other side, I wanted to duplicate the 4mm diameter collar that's on the top of the Black Beetle and thought I'd try sawing as near a 0.5 mm piece as I could from the end of some 4mm o/d brass tubing, suspecting that getting an even slightly even piece that way might be difficult, but I fluked it first time:

 

 

Keeping the 4mm 'tube-washer' central to the 1.6 mm (10BA) hole took a little fiddling though. The head of the 10BA cheesehead bolt was ever so slightly too small to hold the tube-washer central (only about 0.2 mm difference but enough to suggest probably wandering in mid-solder) so I wrapped several thin strips of Kapton tape round the bolt head, enough to keep the brass ring central:

 

 

And once again, the brass blackened bolt didn't remained free:

 

 

After some cleaning up of the solder and trimming of the ends, this is the result: