East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Chas Levin]

The rubbing plate then drops into place at the top of the bogie sides, a light friction fit for measurement purposes - the side view on top of the Isinglass drawing shows things are where they should be, in terms of height:

 

 

 

The domed plate was then tack soldered into place and some tidying up filing done, for trial running tests:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was delighted to find I'd got the height exactly right, with both ends of the floor's underside being 14.5 mm above the rail top, allowing space for another teflon washer, and running tests on my layout (something of an obstacle course and therefore quite useful for this purpose) were very successful.

You can see in the above pictures that the unpowered bogie was temporarily secured from above with a spare bogie stretcher left over from the Judith Edge bogie pieces, because it happened to have a 10BA hole. Something more permanent will be put in place of course, with access through the passenger cabin floor. Although it looks in one photo as if the 4mm collar is below the level of the floor, it's actually slightly proud, so that the securing plate or washer fixed form above is bolted to the collar, not the floor.

The domed bogie top gives easy movement through all planes, exactly as I'd hoped, more than should ever be needed (about 1mm I thik) but better too much than too little:

 

 

 

 

 

Both bogies are yet to receive sides and ends of course, but they're purely cosmetic and the actual support and running are now dealt with 😃.

 

@cctransuk - John, I'd be the first to say this is a somewhat over-engineered solution, but it was very enjoyable to do and I like to imagine that the rocking is ever so slightly smoother as the underside of the floorpan moves around on the shoulders of the domed rubbing plate than it would be if the floor rested on a washer... whilst simultaneously knowing perfectly well that if there is any difference, it's totally unmeasurable and insignificant!

Edited October 29, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Daddyman]

Very neat, Chas! 

 

By the way, if you use steel bolts, you don't need oil or blackener - they won't solder (usually!). 

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Daddyman said:

Very neat, Chas! 

 

By the way, if you use steel bolts, you don't need oil or blackener - they won't solder (usually!). 

 

Thanks, David! Interesting thought, but I'm slightly put off by your "usually": I wonder which is more consistently reliable for excluding solder: oil, blackener or steel?

I don't like using oil for this purpose because of the ease with which it travels and the care with which it then needs to be removed, which is why I'm so pleased to find that blackening works so well, but steel would of course be even easier and quicker.

I have stock of brass bolts in various sizes because there are times when being able to solder them - or the corresponding nut - is so useful, but some steel 'working sets' might be worthwhile... 🤔

[Daddyman]

You have to be really laying on the solder thick for it to stick to steel, Chas, and a simple twist with pliers unsticks it. Oil is as you say messy, and blackener is expensive, poisonous (even worse when heated?) and you have to wait for it to blacken. Steel is best. Sharpie is another option, but not very reliable.  

[Jon4470]

I agree with the use of steel bolts and have never had one get soldered solid. The flux will encourage a nice patina of rust on the steel bolt though🙂  Clean the bolts after use and then the rust stays manageable…..and probably helps, even more, to prevent soldering….this is one of my 8ba bolts after a few uses.

 

You can, of course, clean the bolts after use…..but I tend not to bother as long as the bolt is still usable.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Jon4470
Wrong photo

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

I agree with the use of steel bolts and have never had one get soldered solid. The flux will encourage a nice patina of rust on the steel bolt though🙂  Clean the bolts after use and then the rust stays manageable…..and probably helps, even more, to prevent soldering….this is one of my 8ba bolts after a few uses.

 

You can, of course, clean the bolts after use…..but I tend not to bother as long as the bolt is still usable.

 

Thanks Jon, that's two votes for steel! I'll have to try it out...

[Daddyman]

The other argument in favour of steel is that when you get down to 14BA, brass threads are pretty unreliable. As you know, Chas, I bolt all my locos' superstructures and footplates together with 14BA bolts, as per Judith Edge kits, and I wouldn't fancy my chances with brass. I don't think Mike Edge would fancy my chances either, which is why he supplies steel bolts. I must say switching years ago to steel bolts for soldering really was a revelation and a liberation. Come on in - the water's lovely! 

[Jon4470]

20 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

 

 One thing I learned though is that the GNR had half a dozen railcars, in the earlier period of their use, before the First World War. I didn't know that and with my GNR modelling hat on, I think one of them might make an interesting project in the future...

Go for it!
 

There are some interesting pre grouping railcars from a variety of companies. If I remember correctly the GNR ones were quite well proportioned…….unlike one that I could (at a stretch) justify. That one was a GWR railcar built by Kerr Stuart and sold to the Nidd Valley Railway and named Hill (after one of the Directors I think). Personally I think it is ugly……but it would be unique🤔

my source is British Railcars by Jenkinson and Lane….although I guess that there maybe better better sources for the GNR exclusively.

 

 

Jon

[Daddyman]

2 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

That one was a GWR railcar built by Kerr Stuart and sold to the Nidd Valley Railway and named Hill (after one of the Directors I think). Personally I think it is ugly……but it would be unique🤔

Yes, a very interesting railway - with those Metropolitan 4-4-0Ts too. First layout I build next life around (unless I come back as a cat again like last time).  

[Chas Levin]

5 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

...unless I come back as a cat again like last time...

 

Like this, you mean?

 

[Chas Levin]

12 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

The other argument in favour of steel is that when you get down to 14BA, brass threads are pretty unreliable. As you know, Chas, I bolt all my locos' superstructures and footplates together with 14BA bolts, as per Judith Edge kits, and I wouldn't fancy my chances with brass. I don't think Mike Edge would fancy my chances either, which is why he supplies steel bolts. I must say switching years ago to steel bolts for soldering really was a revelation and a liberation. Come on in - the water's lovely! 

 

Yes, I do know you do that David, because you introduced me to the system when I was building my GNR C2 just in time to provide a solution to my cab woes and I vowed then to bolt future builds wherever possible.

 

I used 14BA brass for the C2 cab because of the available space and the need to solder a nut in place for both bolts, but it's almost certainly never going to need to be disassembled and I daresay more than a handful of disassemblies might be more than such fine threads made from such a relatively soft material will tolerate.

 

I'm just considering how and where to bolt together the roof, body and chassis of the current Sentinel railcar build, in fact. But tell me something, if you can't solder a steel nut in place, how do you fix it?

[Daddyman]

4 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Yes, I do know you do that David, because you introduced me to the system when I was building my GNR C2 just in time to provide a solution to my cab woes and I vowed then to bolt future builds wherever possible.

 

I used 14BA brass for the C2 cab because of the available space and the need to solder a nut in place for both bolts, but it's almost certainly never going to need to be disassembled and I daresay more than a handful of disassemblies might be more than such fine threads made from such a relatively soft material will tolerate.

 

I'm just considering how and where to bolt together the roof, body and chassis of the current Sentinel railcar build, in fact. But tell me something, if you can't solder a steel nut in place, how do you fix it?

You just need D&S-style cross members in the body, bolted to the underframe, and similar cross pieces at the top of the sides and across the roof at the gutter level. 

 

You could use thread lock, but they should just hold of their own accord. Well, they hold if you use springing as there's no vibration to undo the bolts! 😉

 

 

[Bucoops]

I'm going to keep quiet about using down to 16BA and M0.6 in brass without issue then 😇

 

[Chas Levin]

9 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

You just need D&S-style cross members in the body, bolted to the underframe, and similar cross pieces at the top of the sides and across the roof at the gutter level.

 

Yep, that's pretty much what I've been thinking, though with provision to start the disassembly process from underneath of course, as the roof won't be suitable, though I know @34016 used a removable set of coal hatch doors to allow roof access and I'm also considering that...

 

18 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

You could use thread lock, but they should just hold of their own accord. Well, they hold if you use springing as there's no vibration to undo the bolts! 😉

 

😁🤣😂 Another superb plug for springing: you are, to use a modern IT phrase that I find slightly nauseating but very expressive, a 'platform evangelist'!

I am always over-cautious when it comes to fixings and I shall indeed be using threadlock (which BTW I think is amazing stuff!). Though my test running of the chassis yesterday gave wonderfully smooth running, I'm sure there's enough imperceptible vibration to loosen bolts over time...

[Bucoops]

I tend to use blue threadlock as green is a tad strong. No loose screws yet (in my head maybe).

 

Correction - 30seconds in 😂 - I'd not used threadlock on the radius arm at this point as I was still playing with the expansion link... And that screw is steel stainless steel.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Bucoops
video

[Chas Levin]

4 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

I'm going to keep quiet about using down to 16BA and M0.6 in brass without issue then 😇

 

 

Excellent, Rich: very glad you decided not to keep quiet!

 

It looks like another example of 'Your mileage may vary' - different people have different experiences with the same materials.

 

As I said in reply to David just now, the only time I've used the 14BA was in the C2 cab and it inevitably needed two or three assembly and disassembly sequences in mid-build, during which I was as careful as I could be to avoid any clumsy or misaligned turns, but if you're using even smaller sizes, that's very reassuring.

 

Can I ask though, do you still use them in places where you need to disassemble and reassemble fairly frequently?

[Bucoops]

1 minute ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Excellent, Rich: very glad you decided not to keep quiet!

 

It looks like another example of 'Your mileage may vary' - different people have different experiences with the same materials.

 

As I said in reply to David just now, the only time I've used the 14BA was in the C2 cab and it inevitably needed two or three assembly and disassembly sequences in mid-build, during which I was as careful as I could be to avoid any clumsy or misaligned turns, but if you're using even smaller sizes, that's very reassuring.

 

Can I ask though, do you still use them in places where you need to disassemble and reassemble fairly frequently?

 

Yes in that I've pulled apart and rebuilt that valvegear lots of times. I have stripped a few M1.0 screws recently - but I realised I hadn't tapped the hole in the nickel silver sheet I was screwing them into - bit unfair to treat them as self-tappers! They went in OK but when I removed them, oops.

[Chas Levin]

10 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

I tend to use blue threadlock as green is a tad strong. No loose screws yet (in my head maybe).

 

Correction - 30seconds in 😂 - I'd not used threadlock on the radius arm at this point as I was still playing with the expansion link... And that screw is steel stainless steel.

 

 

 

Nice job - what's the loco? That's quite a speed you get to there, a scale goodness-knows-how-fast! No damage done I hope?

 

I too use the blue, Loctite 243, culled from their list at some point in the past as being strong enough but not too strong, as you say.

[Chas Levin]

4 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

Yes in that I've pulled apart and rebuilt that valvegear lots of times.

 

Good to know. I think I'd still steer a middle course between your words and David's though and use 14BA or below with care.

 

6 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

I have stripped a few M1.0 screws recently - but I realised I hadn't tapped the hole in the nickel silver sheet I was screwing them into - bit unfair to treat them as self-tappers! They went in OK but when I removed them, oops.

 

Self-tapping brass bolts, eh? You like living dangerously, don't you, Rich 😅

[Bucoops]

1 minute ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Nice job - what's the loco? That's quite a speed you get to there, a scale goodness-knows-how-fast! No damage done I hope?

 

I too use the blue, Loctite 243, culled from their list at some point in the past as being strong enough but not too strong, as you say.

 

Nope - didn't even notice was missing for quite some time - I found the screw and recognised it as I've filed the head to make it easier to turn in its location. I have no idea what speed that was but I think Mallard (hint there) would have been thoroughly beaten 😏  

[Bucoops]

21 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Good to know. I think I'd still steer a middle course between your words and David's though and use 14BA or below with care.

 

 

Self-tapping brass bolts, eh? You like living dangerously, don't you, Rich 😅

 

Always!

[Chas Levin]

On 08/10/2023 at 11:10, Daddyman said:

Thinking further ahead, Chas... the etch has no hinged toplights... so perhaps you/we could commission some toplight etches from Rumney?

 

David, I forgot to tell you, I've been in touch with Justin at Rumney, we've looked at photos of the toplights and how they work and also how they pivot in the main frames; he's produced artwork and will be doing an etch in early December, all being well. I've asked for an extra set to send to you too, in case you want to use them, as a 'thank you' for the idea of asking him and also (more recently) for the D&S bogies.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Daddyman]

9 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

David, I forgot to tell you, I've been in touch with Justin at Rumney, we've looked at photos of the toplights and how they work and also how they pivot in the main frames; he's produced artwork and will be doing an etch in early December, all being well. I've asked for an extra set to send to you too, in case you want to use them, as a 'thank you' for the idea of asking him and also (more recently) for the D&S bogies.

Brilliant, Chas - and thank you! 

[Chas Levin]

22 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

If I remember correctly the GNR ones were quite well proportioned…….

 

Here are some drawings and a photo of som of the GNR railcars - the drawings are labelled, the photo is of No 6 and they're from that Oakwood paperback 'British Steam Railcars' by R. W. Rush I brought back from Norwich (with the usual disclaimers - please respect copyright, these cropped photos are only on here for study):

 

 

 

 

I'm not entirely sold on the 'truncated loco with pruned coach' look, but I can't deny that they'd would make interesting modelling projects. I think the semi-elliptical roof of No 2 improves the look somewhat but that's probably because I hve a great fondness for that shape; the more consistent lines of coach body and loco roof of the No 6 are perhaps more pleasing. The loco part of No 7 looks a little odd and I wonder how accurate that is.

[micklner]

Try and get that around a curve!!