East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Chas Levin]

In relation to how long it lasts, the Microscale stuff was on that wheel for 36 hours before removal, which I'm hoping will be enough for most jobs, though I might do some tests to see how long it stays workable. Not too sure about Copydex though David - I find the smell rather unpleasant..!

 

I spoke to Ian briefly at the Warley NEC show last weekend; he was there as a demonstrator and he had a lovely looking GNR Parcel, Fruit & Milk Van (D&S 267) as one of his display items. I asked him where he'd got the transfers for all of the wording and even as I asked the question, I realised who I was talking to and I knew the split-second before he replied what he'd say, that those words not on the HMRS sheet were - of course - hand-lettered by him! I should have though of that for myself, shouldn't I? Needless to say, the hand-lettering was indistinguishable to my eyes from the transfers...

Edited December 1, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

I started with the guard irons on the uppowered bogie today, because that bogie needs the most work to complete it. Before looking at them though, I attended to the filing needed to give the wheel flanges clearance beneath the newly added end pieces:

 

 

A little difficult to see - the clearance is still very slim - but the problem is no more:

 

 

So, to the guard irons, which I made from some 1mm x 1.5mm brass angle, using the same filing jig I used for the body pillar bases, as shown further back on this thread:

 

 

I decided to pin them with some 0.45mm brass wire, as well as soldering them, because of the risk of their dislodging during subsequent soldering operations, but also because the filed down ends of the wire would show through on the bogie front and look like rivets:

 

 

The usual delicate soldering, with a very hot iron, lashings of flux, blutak and three hands:

 

 

The eagle-eyed will have spotted however that the guard iron about to be soldered in place in the last photo is positioned right at the edge of the bogie, as per the prototype and the Isinglass drawing... but I'm working in 00 and had forgotten to allow for that, so this was the rather poor looking result:

 

 

I thought I might be able to live with it - how often do we view our models head-on and at track level - but a moment looking at the bogie on 00 track made it quite clear that it really wouldn't do.

So, they came off and were moved inboard, still in a compromise position but at least now, when viewed from the side or from above, the irons appear reasonably in line with 00 gauge rail tops:

 

 

I haven't replicated the curved upper sections of the irons as shown in the photo a few posts back of car 601 in the workshop at Gorton. That construction is certainly on the powered bogie but from the few photos I've found of the irons on the carrying bogie, they seem to be a simpler, straighter affair. They'll be at the rear of the car, underneath and not terrifically prominent and while I enjoy researching a replicating a certain amount of detail, I'm also keen to finish this model reasonably quickly!

 

Instead of filling in and hiding the first, outer holes, I soldered another couple of pieces of 0.45mm wire into them and filed the ends down along with the wires holding the irons in place, so that there's a pair of rivets each side. The bogies and chassis of these vehicles had a lot of rivet detail so every little helps and although I haven't yet found a clear and well lit picture of the rear face of the carrying bogie, an extra rivet each side can't be too out of place!

 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Nick Lawson]

On 28/11/2023 at 11:59, jwealleans said:

Chas, was it you asking me about GN wagon lettering?   I had forgotten at the time but Old Time Workshop do a sheet.  i found one on H & A Models' stand on the Sunday.

Ah no that was me. Thanks for the tip! I have now found one on their website. Also, their set for the Cambrian Midland D663/664.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Nick Lawson
missing word

[Chas Levin]

The carrying bogie sides have caused some thought. I much prefer soldering to glueing and I've soldered white-metal to brass quite a few times without issue, but I was a little hesitant here as the bogie side castings would be very tough to replace, they're quite thin and they have prominent detail that would look bad if it got damaged, so I'd pretty much made up my mind to glue...

 

I'd worked out from testing and measuring that it's not possible to add the outer cosmetic sides before the wheelsets - there's insufficient clearance between inner and outer sides to put the wheels on the axles. Glueing would have the advantage that the wheelsets could be inserted before the outer sides were added. I don't like soldering near to wheels and axles and while the Microsole masking I was trying out a few posts back should cope with soldering the ends of the brass sides to the bogie corners, sweating the entire WM side to its brass mate would likely spray flux everywhere.

 

Whichever the method of attaching, I wanted to find a way to provide better fixing points than the flat surfaces of the outer cosmetic brass sides, so I started by soldering cut down 10BA countersunk bolts pointing outwards from the inside, through the redundant axle holes in the brass sides, using 188 degree solder - the wheels are on 20mm plain ended axles running in the inner frames:

 

 

The protruding bolt ends then fit into the equally redundant axle holes on the insides of the WM sides:

 

 

At this point, I could still have used these bolt ends as fixings for glueing with epoxy... but I decided - finally - to go for broke and solder it all up! I had the idea of putting a small amount of 70 degree solder into those holes in the back of the WM castings and melting it:

 

 

 

 

Then, proceeding to press the 188 degree solder tinned brass sides into the WM so the 10BA bolts would push into the WM holes, they would no longer fit because of the 70 degree solder I'd added to the WM holes... but, by applying the iron to the (filed down) slotted bolt heads, the bolts would heat up the 70 degree solder inside the WM axle holes and melt it, allowing the ends of the bolts to seat down into the holes and, on cooling, the 70 degree would bond to the tinned bolt ends. And it worked, easily and quickly:

 

 

 

The this newly combined brass and white-metal was then soldered to one side of the bogie, with the aid of some of my collection of small pieces of wood and card:

 

 

And this is the result:

 

 

 

 

 

 

The wheels you see there are still a test set. I think I'm going to have to insert the final wheels at this point, before adding the second side, though I will have one more go tomorrow at finding a way to add the wheels after all the soldering's been done. Worst case scenario though, I'd been able to do all the soldering bar the last two side-to-end corner joints without the wheels in the way, which pleases me!

[Chas Levin]

11 hours ago, Nick Lawson said:

Ah no that was me. Thanks for the tip! I have now found one on their website. Also, their set for the Cambrian Midland D663/664.

 

Old Time Workshop also do a very good range of LNER - brake van, Fish van etc.

[Daddyman]

10 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

The wheels you see there are still a test set. I think I'm going to have to insert the final wheels at this point, before adding the second side, though I will have one more go tomorrow at finding a way to add the wheels after all the soldering's been done. Worst case scenario though, I'd been able to do all the soldering bar the last two side-to-end corner joints without the wheels in the way, which pleases me!

In haste as I have to go to shirk, but can't you open the axle holes downwards fully so that they are slots and retain the wheels with wire retained at the centre boss on its underside - à la Comet loco bogies?   

[Bucoops]

10 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

The carrying bogie sides have caused some thought. I much prefer soldering to glueing and I've soldered white-metal to brass quite a few times without issue, but I was a little hesitant here as the bogie side castings would be very tough to replace, they're quite thin and they have prominent detail that would look bad if it got damaged, so I'd pretty much made up my mind to glue...

 

I'd worked out from testing and measuring that it's not possible to add the outer cosmetic sides before the wheelsets - there's insufficient clearance between inner and outer sides to put the wheels on the axles. Glueing would have the advantage that the wheelsets could be inserted before the outer sides were added. I don't like soldering near to wheels and axles and while the Microsole masking I was trying out a few posts back should cope with soldering the ends of the brass sides to the bogie corners, sweating the entire WM side to its brass mate would likely spray flux everywhere.

 

Whichever the method of attaching, I wanted to find a way to provide better fixing points than the flat surfaces of the outer cosmetic brass sides, so I started by soldering cut down 10BA countersunk bolts pointing outwards from the inside, through the redundant axle holes in the brass sides, using 188 degree solder - the wheels are on 20mm plain ended axles running in the inner frames:

 

 

The protruding bolt ends then fit into the equally redundant axle holes on the insides of the WM sides:

 

 

At this point, I could still have used these bolt ends as fixings for glueing with epoxy... but I decided - finally - to go for broke and solder it all up! I had the idea of putting a small amount of 70 degree solder into those holes in the back of the WM castings and melting it:

 

 

 

 

Then, proceeding to press the 188 degree solder tinned brass sides into the WM so the 10BA bolts would push into the WM holes, they would no longer fit because of the 70 degree solder I'd added to the WM holes... but, by applying the iron to the (filed down) slotted bolt heads, the bolts would heat up the 70 degree solder inside the WM axle holes and melt it, allowing the ends of the bolts to seat down into the holes and, on cooling, the 70 degree would bond to the tinned bolt ends. And it worked, easily and quickly:

 

 

 

The this newly combined brass and white-metal was then soldered to one side of the bogie, with the aid of some of my collection of small pieces of wood and card:

 

 

And this is the result:

 

 

 

 

 

 

The wheels you see there are still a test set. I think I'm going to have to insert the final wheels at this point, before adding the second side, though I will have one more go tomorrow at finding a way to add the wheels after all the soldering's been done. Worst case scenario though, I'd been able to do all the soldering bar the last two side-to-end corner joints without the wheels in the way, which pleases me!

 

Looking good :)

 

I have found that attaching whitemetal bogie sides to the brass frame is a doddle with my RSU - I don't even use low-melt, just tin the brass with the usual stuff, slap some flux on, give the whitemetal a srub to remove oxidisation and then hold the two bits together and run the probe over the inside surface of the brass on quite a high setting (depending on the thickness of the whitemetal).

 

[Chas Levin]

4 hours ago, Daddyman said:

In haste as I have to go to shirk, but can't you open the axle holes downwards fully so that they are slots and retain the wheels with wire retained at the centre boss on its underside - à la Comet loco bogies?   

 

Interesting thought David. I probably still tend to follow the path in front of me too much and don't always think as widely as I should: that hadn't occurred to me. The bogie inner sides are as supplied, parts from the Judith Edge ES1 kit and I've not yet built a Comet bogie. In fact the only times I've seen wheelsets that can be dropped out were the driving wheels of locos. Do you build bogies with removable wheelsets too?

I've chanced soldering with already-wheeled coach and loco bogies before, of course; often, the soldering can be effectively shielded from the axles and wheels, but in this case, everything's closer together and more open. Also, sweating on WM sides produces a lot more boiling flux and spray.

 

I'll have a look at the Comet bogie system, as it's not too late to go down that route...

[Chas Levin]

4 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

Looking good :)

 

I have found that attaching whitemetal bogie sides to the brass frame is a doddle with my RSU - I don't even use low-melt, just tin the brass with the usual stuff, slap some flux on, give the whitemetal a srub to remove oxidisation and then hold the two bits together and run the probe over the inside surface of the brass on quite a high setting (depending on the thickness of the whitemetal).

 

 

Thanks Rich; I'm still not sold on the RSU option though...!

[Daddyman]

 

 

33 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Do you build bogies with removable wheelsets too?

I've chanced soldering with already-wheeled coach and loco bogies before, of course; often, the soldering can be effectively shielded from the axles and wheels, but in this case, everything's closer together and more open. Also, sweating on WM sides produces a lot more boiling flux and spray.

 

I'll have a look at the Comet bogie system, as it's not too late to go down that route...

I haven't built any build bogie locos for some years, Chas, but, yes, they'd have to be - wait for it - sprung, which would probably involve dropping the wheels out. 

 

With your proven ingenuity, you should be able to rig up a bolt-on keeper plate for the bottom of the bogie, to which the springs (guitar wire rather than NS wire?) are soldered; then, to get the wheels out, you just unscrew the keeper plate.  

 

Here's what the Comet bogies look like. I don't have a photo of a made-up one with the keeper wires in place. - maybe someone else has? I won't say which kit manufacturer's bogie I bought this to replace as I'll get into trouble 😉

 

P.S have you thinned the w/m bogie frames to within an inch of their lives? All stick-on bogie frames are too wide, but that can be mitigated with some work with a file. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Daddyman

[Chas Levin]

Thanks to all for the advice, but I decided to stick with rigid construction and a captive wheelset for this carrying bogie. Thank you @Daddyman for the photo of the Comet etch, useful to bear in mind for future projects: I should of course have realised that any loco bogies you built would be sprung!

Having test-run the floorpan on the two bogies prior to starting work on adding the cosmetic sides, I know it already runs very smoothly so there's no benefit from that point of view, and I have many items with captive wheelsets in unpowered bogies so I'm comfortable with chancing a future need to extract them.

I'm also trying to get into the habit of building more quickly (goodness knows I could do with some improvement there!!) and of limiting my perfectionist tendencies to things that either bring tangible benefit - e.g. improvements in running quality - or are at least visible from normal viewing angles, so I decided not to modify this bogie any further, and the other side has now been added, having first sweated together the brass and white-metal cosmetic sides in the same way as the first pair:

 

 

 

 

I did investigate whether both sides could be soldered on before inserting the wheelsets but it can't quite be done. Inserting them with just one side in place is already slightly fiddly, involving the use of a small steel plate to avoid exerting force on the white-metal side that's already in place:

 

 

On 08/12/2023 at 13:40, Daddyman said:

P.S have you thinned the w/m bogie frames to within an inch of their lives? All stick-on bogie frames are too wide, but that can be mitigated with some work with a file. 

 

I thinned the sides a little David, but more in the cause of providing as flat as possible a rear face where it was to be sweated to the brass, plus I was quite pleased to have the extra weight of the white-metal low down in what will be a mainly nickel-silver vehicle. I also mounted the brass and white-metal sandwich sides slightly inboard to reduce the overall outer width. I checked prototype pics to see how far the axleboxes protrude outwards in relation to the solebars, though I found a certain amount of variation there, so that was a little inconclusive, plus of course the wide variety of rather unhelpful angles at which many photos were taken. Likewise the vertical positioning of the bogie sides in relation to the ride height and solebars, where I found that the Isinglass doesn't entirely agree with some prototype photos... which I know won't surprise some...

 

Next up will be ther adding of the cosmetic white-metal sides to the Black Beetle power bogie: I'd say there's more of a case to be able to extract that from it's outer frame if possible than in the case of the carrying bogie, in case the Beetle fails...🤔

[micklner]

A nice lump of the lead under the Seats will help the Bogie stay on the Rails in due course. No idea of the actual total weight at a guess quite light . It might need more Lead in due course elsewhere as well !!.

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, micklner said:

A nice lump of the lead under the Seats will help the Bogie stay on the Rails in due course. No idea of the actual total weight at a guess quite light . It might need more Lead in due course elsewhere as well !!.

Yep, agreed! There'll be a false floor above the floorpan/chassis as it is at the moment, which I'm reckoning can have a piece of lead sheet underneath the whole length. Also some of the underframe fittings can be filled with lead...

[Daddyman]

12 hours ago, micklner said:

A nice lump of the lead under the Seats will help the Bogie stay on the Rails in due course. No idea of the actual total weight at a guess quite light . It might need more Lead in due course elsewhere as well !!.

The brass D&S carriages come in at about 200g. I never put extra weight in them.  

[micklner]

28 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

The brass D&S carriages come in at about 200g. I never put extra weight in them.  

No idea if Nickel silver is heavier or lighter?.

This is a Autocar, I presume it would need low down weight e.g lead at least over the drivers, otherwise the wheels will just spin!!. Plus overall stability would be improved . It might only need weight at each end. Testing will show either way in due course.

I agree the D&S Coaches are far from light, but they dont have to do any work for a living !!.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, micklner said:

No idea if Nickel silver is heavier or lighter?.

 

Nickel silver and brass have about the same density, around 8.6 g/cm3 - depending on the exact composition of the alloy. Any variation is not so great as to make any practical difference for a model.

[Chas Levin]

4 hours ago, Daddyman said:

The brass D&S carriages come in at about 200g. I never put extra weight in them.  

 

3 hours ago, micklner said:

No idea if Nickel silver is heavier or lighter?.

This is a Autocar, I presume it would need low down weight e.g lead at least over the drivers, otherwise the wheels will just spin!!. Plus overall stability would be improved . It might only need weight at each end. Testing will show either way in due course.

I agree the D&S Coaches are far from light, but they dont have to do any work for a living !!.

 

Agreed on both counts: I too have never additionally weighted brass coaches but I suspect there's a need for great traction here: tests will follow, in due course!

 

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Nickel silver and brass have about the same density, around 8.6 g/cm3 - depending on the exact composition of the alloy. Any variation is not so great as to make any practical difference for a model.

 

Thanks for the scientifically accurate confirmation Stephen: I'd have thought that was the case from instinct, but nice to have it confirmed.

 

Incidentally, I have succumbed to your excellent sales pitch at Warley and applied to join the MRS!

Edited December 11, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Incidentally, I have succumbed to your excellent sales pitch at Warley and applied to join the MRS!

 

i trust you put "nagged by Stephen Lea" as your reason for joining.

[Chas Levin]

17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

i trust you put "nagged by Stephen Lea" as your reason for joining.

 

Actually I wasn't sure you'd want a named reference (GDPR and all that, times in which we live, unauthorised use etc) so I ascribed my knowledge of the Society to the D299 appreciation thread, which is in fact the place where I first heard of it, even though it was almost certainly in the course of a post written by you!

Hope that's OK?

Edited December 11, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Daddyman]

38 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Nickel silver and brass have about the same density, around 8.6 g/cm3 - depending on the exact composition of the alloy. Any variation is not so great as to make any practical difference for a model.

What about the density of rice-pudding skin? 

[Chas Levin]

24 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

What about the density of rice-pudding skin? 

 

Hm: I always stir it in as the pudding cooks, because I don't like the skin to form; which also means I never have to worry about being able to pull the skin off a rice pudding with anything I build!

[Bucoops]

3 hours ago, Daddyman said:

What about the density of rice-pudding skin? 

 

School dinner RP or other?

[Chas Levin]

21 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

School dinner RP or other?

 

Homemade, in my case Rich - from this vintage cookbook, very simple and absolutely delicious:

 

 

And what is the SI unit of measurement of density for rice pudding? The closest UK one looks to me to be 'gram per millilitre', though I like the sound of some of the US customary units: 'avoirdupois ounce per cubic inch', anyone?

Edited December 11, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

And what is the SI unit of measurement of density for rice pudding? 

 

Don't get me started - it's kg/m3 (kilogrammes per cubic metre) like the density of anything else. That's the beauty and simplicity of the SI.

[Chas Levin]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

Don't get me started - it's kg/m3 (kilogrammes per cubic metre) like the density of anything else. That's the beauty and simplicity of the SI.

 

Wow: as a big fan of rice pudding, I'm now imagining a cubic metre of the stuff... 🤪