East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Chas Levin]

Merry Christmas to all 👋🏻🥂🎁🎄

[Woodcock29]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

Merry Christmas to all 👋🏻🥂🎁🎄

And likewise to you Chas.

Andrew

[Bucoops]

3 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Merry Christmas to all 👋🏻🥂🎁🎄

 

Merry Christmas 🎅💜 I think my phone is drunk, I can't ditch the purple heart lol

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

 

Merry Christmas 🎅💜 I think my phone is drunk, I can't ditch the purple heart lol

The Purple Heart is awarded to those wounded or killed while serving with the US military: was your career pre- RMWeb more adventurous than you've let on, Rich? 😉

Edited December 25, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Bucoops]

23 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

The Purple Heart is awarded to those wounded or killed while serving with the US military: was your career pre- RMWeb more adventurous than you've let on, Rich? 😉

 

Sergeant Bash at your service

[Chas Levin]

Hope everyone had an enjoyable Christmas and that the only added weight has been suitably distributed to achieve smooth running and good electrical contact... 😁

 

While awaiting tools and materials to form tumblehomes, turnunders and bogie frames, I've been making seating. After some searching around, David Lewis of Southern Pride very kindly pointed me towards Paragon Kits, where the equally helpful Andrew Goodwin supplied these etches from his range, originally intended as minibus seats but adaptable to Sentinel use:

 

 

First thing is to lose the handrails that run along the seat tops; I was sorry to have to do this as they look very neat, but they're definitely wrong for these railcars. However, waste not want not - they'll re-surface one day as handrails elsewhere:

 

 

The major modification is to produce the wider three-seat benches, as all the Paragon ones are two-seaters. I ordered extra etches partly with this in mind, soldered five seats together and sawed through the resultant block to provide DIY singles:

 

 

A double and a single were then sweated side by side (in a hastily arranged wood and blutak jig) onto a pre-tinned strip of 5 thou brass, which will also serve to represent the cushioning on the rear-facing sides of the reversible seats:

 

 

 

After some cleaning up they start to look a little smarter - the visible joins on the fronts will be covered by the plasticard cushions which will be added at a later stage:

 

 

I wasn't sure what angle the seat backs should be (who actually knows the typical angle of seat backs on public transport c1928?) and couldn't discern it from any photos I've so far seen, but like almost every other question anyone ever asked, the answer is to be found online, where I read an interesting PhD thesis on the differing levels of passenger comfort under engine vibration at various seat back angles. Yes, really.

A quick homemade jig then assured uniformity:

 

 

A proud moment - my firstborn:

 

 

The first of many... the Sentinels had seating for 59!

 

 

I reinforced all the leg fold-ups but not the angled backs, in case there's a need for some angle tweaking once they're soldered in place - they'll need to match, so that the eye runs along the line evenly.

Some upside-down masking tape provided a handy way to produce a mock-up of the internal layout, mainly to check that I'd made the right quantity of each type: there are two- and three-seaters of slightly different widths at each end, plus of course the end seats aren't reversible and have vertical backs, up against the bulkheads:

 

 

 

 

 

The 'feet' aren't prototypical of course, but they'll be completely invisible in the finished vehicle - you'll only really see the seat tops - which is also why I've been quite heavy-handed with the solder reinforcement of the seat leg fold-ups, to ensure stability during further interior fitting operations.

I also realised that this interior mock-up can be used to set up other cabin fittings... 🤔

Edited December 31, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

Happy New Year to everyone! 😃

[31A]

7 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Happy New Year to everyone! 😃

Thank you Chas, and the same to you!

 

[TangoOscarMike]

That is spectacular. At what point would you decide that it was more straightforward to design an etch of your own?

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, TangoOscarMike said:

That is spectacular. At what point would you decide that it was more straightforward to design an etch of your own?

 

Haha, yes indeed: well, I guess I'd decide that now, after having had to go to the amount of trouble I did...

 

To be quite honest, I didn't actually notice there were two- and three-seat benches during the planning stage! I was focussed on the shape of the seats - especially the backs - and working from contemporary interior photos where bench widths weren't fully visible. I only looked properly at the Isinglass plan after I'd started cutting and prepping the Paragon etches, because I needed to check how many seats were needed. Not my finest preparation, I know. But, as I enjoy kit-bashing, it seemed sensible to carry on (not to mentiont that it was over Christmas so finding something else would have been delayed).

 

But yes, now, with hindsight, were I to build another of these vehicles, I'd find something better suited, perhaps etches where all the seats were wider, so they just needed cutting down for the narrower ones. Commissioning a custom etch might not have occurred to me as the toplight ones that I had from Justin at Rumney were the first I've ever done, so that's still a bit of a new thing and not at the front of a my mental toolbox yet...

 

Just to be clear, neither David Lewis nor Andrew Goodwin - both of whom I referred to in a previous post as having advised on these seats - were in any way at fault in their advice, because I sent them the two interior railcar photos but not the Isinglass plan, so they wouldn't have known that half the seats were wider.

 

Another lesson in taking time to plan things carefully, but the end result will be good I think, so I'm happy! 🙂

Edited January 1 by Chas Levin

[Jon4470]

Hello Chas

 

A little while ago you were pondering how best to attach bogie sides to the powered bogie. Well, today, I happened across the instructions for the Spud bogie and thought they maybe of interest

 

 

 

The actual brackets supplied are in three varieties 

 

 

 

Probably don’t add too much overall that is new to the conversation but maybe relevant.

 

Jon

 

 

[Chas Levin]

32 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

Hello Chas

 

A little while ago you were pondering how best to attach bogie sides to the powered bogie. Well, today, I happened across the instructions for the Spud bogie and thought they maybe of interest

 

 

 

The actual brackets supplied are in three varieties 

 

 

 

Probably don’t add too much overall that is new to the conversation but maybe relevant.

 

Jon

 

Hello Jon (and Happy New Year), thank you, very nice of you to post this and certainly food for thought. Definitely relevant: the way other people do things is always interesting and stimulates further ideas. The lighter gauge brass U- and I- channel I'd ordered arrived the day I was finishing the current stage of work on the seating, so I am about to go back to the bogie bracket and this is perfectly timed!

 

Also, by coincidence, I have a Hanazono bogie (it's been in the spares box so long I can't remember where or when from!) but no instructions, so assuming I one day use it this will save some head-scratching!!

Edited January 1 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

Well, a somewhat longer interval between postings for the start of this year, due to other things taking up what would have been modelling time.

 

A couple of them are related activities though: what started out as a minor re-organisation of my work room (a former 2m by 2m box bedroom) turned into a full re-location into our largely unsued dining room (with the agreement of Mrs Joint Stock, of course!) so while that took a lot of time and energy, it's resulted in my having a much bigger room to work in, with almost everything I use or need in the same room (no more running up and down stairs every five minutes for a slightly differently shaped file 😁) and the space to have my small layout out and operational all the time, instead of only weekends and holidays. Also, much better light and a new (well, pretty old actually, from Ebay) desk to work on, with lots of small shelves and deep drawers!

 

Meanwhile, in other news, I have taken up the post of Interim Secretary of the Great Northern Railway Society, which is very exciting! My appointment is 'Interim' at the moment as it has to be voted on and approved at the next suitable Society meeting in April, but I've already been organising forthcoming meetings, getting to know the other committee members and so forth and it's great to be involved in things.

 

Getting back to the Sentinel railcar build, I'd been dividing my time between designing and making a frame for the motor bogie and creating the turnunder curve in the sides and I'd postponed the turnunder while I awaited my 10" Mini-roller from GW models. This duly arrived but has been on one side along with everything else. With apologies in particular to @Compound2632 (who asked me how I was geting on with it) and anyone else who wondered after I'd trailed it, here's what you get for your money:

 

 

 

 

It's a very substantial 1.8Kg piece of kit, well desigined and well made and I wish I'd bought one years ago! It needs mounting in a vice or if you have the space, it could be permanently set up somewhere in a workshop:

 

 

I was keen to see what it could do so I fed in the first piece of scrap etch to hand and as you can see, it produces a beautifully even curvature:

 

 

 

 

The degree of curvature is increased or decreased by using the adjustment screws at each end to raise or lower the upper middle bar in relation to the two lower ones. The lower ones are geared together and are turned by means of the cranked handle at one end. Friction between them, the workpiece and the upper bar draws the workpiece through the rollers. I'd read of some users finding this problematic and having to push the workpiece through with hand pressure and I did find there was a need for some manual help when the upper bar was far enough away from the two lower ones for there to be almost no friction, but where the bars are closer (or the workpiece is thicker) friction did the job.

 

Having independent adjustment screws at each end to raise and lower the upper bar means you can roll tapered pieces by having the upper bar closer at one end than at the other - very useful for certain boiler shapes - but it also means that if you're not after a taper, you need to take care to adjust the two screws equally and keep the upper bar truly parallel to the lower ones. The instructions say that doing this by eye is sufficiently accurate, but I wanted some way of making scaled or graduated and repeatable adjustments. I first thought about putting tiny paint dots on the heads of the adjustment screws but immediately saw that wouldn't be accurate enough; I wiped off the freshly applied paint and found it had very neatly filled the letting that's stamped into the screws' upper surfaces... which is accurate enough:

 

 

I dismantled the screws - something that's explained in the instructions, as it's how you remove a fully circular rolled piece for soemthing like a boiler - and using a ruling pen I painted thin white lines from each corner to the centre hole:

 

 

 

Re-assembled, I can then line up any of the letters - or the full stop, which I'm finding is the most accurate to use - with one of the white lines and know that I'm turning the screw a quarter, half or full turn, to match the screw on the other side:

 

 

 

I then spent some time practising on various pieces of scrap and I also experimented with sandwiching pieces between thin card or thin brass sheet, to get the curve to the edge of the workpiece, though as you can see in my first attempt above, that isn't necessarily a problem even without sandwich pieces.

 

All in all, a terrific pieces of kit and so much easier than wrestling with metal bars and foam! I'll do a fresh post with the results on the Worsley Works Sentinel etches, as this post's almost at the photo limit.

Edited February 25 by Chas Levin

[Bucoops]

Interesting idea with the markings - on mine  I just turn the allen key 1/4 turn each time but your way is a bit more accurate!

[Chas Levin]

Having gained a little confidence with the GW Mini-roller, I turned to the Worsley Works etched sides for the Sentinel 'car. These are still within the outer frames of the full etch and leaving them there provides additional support and helps feed the actual sides into the rollers, so I left them in place - here's the result:

 

 

This took more than one go and it also took some creative use of thin card sandwiching, to counteract another thing I'd read about, where the rollers themselves deform, bending outwards ever so slightly at the centre, particularly with a long workpiece. I found this did happen a tiny amount, so that the first run on both sides showed ever so slightly less curvature towards the middle of the piece. I therefore tried inserting card sandwich pieces at the middle of the etch lengths to fill the minute gaps where the rollers were deforming slightly, bringing them back into contact with the card pieces and therefore, through them, with the nickel silver and this worked perfectly:

 

 

I also found that one of the sides didn't bend quite as evenly and uniformly as the other - for no reason that I could see, as they were done one after the other, with no roller adjustment, at the same point along the roller length - but I found that inserting the card pieces at a section where I wanted more pressure allowed just that section to be bent a little more, without further curving of areas I was already happy with:

 

 

 

(I also recommend Sultana Bran as an aid to the digestion by the way - no connection with the cereal industry, just a satisfied customer!)

 

I spent some time looking at the profile of the prototypes' curve and I think these results are close enough to pass muster: they're a little too tightly curved towards the bottom of the sides, but in the course of soldering them to partitions, floor-pans, doors and so forth I think it'll be easier to reduce the excess radius by a few degrees than it would be to increase it:

 

 

The etches have pretty evenly curved along the whole length too, which is very pleasing, though in the course of looking at prototype photos I came across one of those ones that shows how far from truly flat steel panelling often was:

 

Edited February 13 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

28 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

Interesting idea with the markings - on mine  I just turn the allen key 1/4 turn each time but your way is a bit more accurate!

 

Ha - I actually didn't think of using the allen key as a marker Rich, because once I found that the adjustment screws have knurled rims and turn by hand, I put the allen key away and forgot about it.

 

We'll see; like most things I'll probably change the procedure with further use. I also thought about using feeler gauges to match the rollers' separation at ech end...

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

With apologies in particular to @Compound2632 (who asked me how I was geting on with it) and anyone else who wondered after I'd trailed it, here's what you get for your money:

 

I have the GW rolling bars now, on loan, so this is all most interesting and informative, especially the trick with the card. I'm just working out how to set it up, as I lack a suitable vice. (I have various unsuitable vices.) The Workmate may come into play.

 

2 hours ago, Bucoops said:

Interesting idea with the markings - on mine  I just turn the allen key 1/4 turn each time but your way is a bit more accurate!

 

The person from whom I borrowed it just goes by the markings on the screws - though without Chas' cunning fiducial aides - but the first thing I though on seeing it was: Allen key.

[Chas Levin]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I have the GW rolling bars now, on loan, so this is all most interesting and informative, especially the trick with the card. I'm just working out how to set it up, as I lack a suitable vice. (I have various unsuitable vices.) The Workmate may come into play.

 

Aha - delighted to hear you have the chance to try out a set: there's nothing so useful as being able to test-drive something like this. Assuming you have some to hand, I'd also suggest running as many pieces of scrap through them as you can, at different bar height settings, to get the feel of it.

 

A workmate I'd think would be ideal, as it would grip the vertical piece beneath the rollers right along its lngth, better than my relatively narrow vice does.

[micklner]

I have never used my GW Roller in any kind of Vice, it just rests on my lap during the rolling. Its only ever rolled thin etched Brass parts without any issues . There is virtually no effort/force in rolling required.

I simply just adjust the Allen Screws until the shape is right too !!.

 

If I ever needed a Vice, as said above  the Workmate is ideal.

[richard i]

2 hours ago, micklner said:

 

If I ever needed a Vice, as said above  the Workmate is ideal.

What vice does the work mate have? Asking for a friend.
richard 

[micklner]

My friend also said "Turn the handle"

[Bucoops]

17 minutes ago, micklner said:

My friend also said "Turn the handle"

 

Sounds like a wind-up?

[Chas Levin]

And as Quentin Crisp remarked, "vice is its own reward"! 😉

 

I'm impressed Mick that you use this piece of kit on your lap: it's pretty hefty and I find it a little unwieldy because of its weight and length and irregular shape, so I found securing it in something made it much easier to use. That vice that you see in the photos is the type on a posable ball joint which has to be done up tightly to keep it stable and it's not really designed for anything as long and heavy as these rollers so a little care is needed.

 

I'm guessing that you've been using your rollers for quite a few years and that you've used them on a considerable number of models, so you're very practised with them? Give me a few years and perhaps I too will manage handheld rolling! 😄

[micklner]

28 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

And as Quentin Crisp remarked, "vice is its own reward"! 😉

 

I'm impressed Mick that you use this piece of kit on your lap: it's pretty hefty and I find it a little unwieldy because of its weight and length and irregular shape, so I found securing it in something made it much easier to use. That vice that you see in the photos is the type on a posable ball joint which has to be done up tightly to keep it stable and it's not really designed for anything as long and heavy as these rollers so a little care is needed.

 

I'm guessing that you've been using your rollers for quite a few years and that you've used them on a considerable number of models, so you're very practised with them? Give me a few years and perhaps I too will manage handheld rolling! 😄

As already said you are rolling thin metal . The big advantage for me is you can lift the rollers at any angle to see what is actually happening with the metal as the rollers turn. You are limited what you can see when its fitted into a Vice.

 

Yes its heavy ish but the rolling takes a few minutes or less !!. Stick a Towel on your legs first will help, if needed.

 

One tip, dont try and roll anything in one go especially with Boilers , keep taking it out of the rollers and checking as you go.

 

 

Plus my small Vice is a very cold outside shed, as is my Workmate.  No tittering  😅!!.

[Chas Levin]

7 hours ago, micklner said:

As already said you are rolling thin metal . The big advantage for me is you can lift the rollers at any angle to see what is actually happening with the metal as the rollers turn. You are limited what you can see when its fitted into a Vice.

 

Yes its heavy ish but the rolling takes a few minutes or less !!. Stick a Towel on your legs first will help, if needed.

 

One tip, dont try and roll anything in one go especially with Boilers , keep taking it out of the rollers and checking as you go.

 

 

Plus my small Vice is a very cold outside shed, as is my Workmate.  No tittering  😅!!.

 

Yes, I found you do need to see from different angles and that the posable ball-joint vice was good for that. Also fully agree that a little at a time and frequent checking is very good.

 

I took another look at the curvatures last night and flattened a couple of areas out ever so slightly, where I think I'd been a tiny bit too enthusiastic: overall I think these rollers are a terrific piece of equipment - they give a real sense of control over the material!