Proposed new Welsh stations

[Northmoor]

To be fair most ferry port towns are pretty dreary; they're places where people get straight off the ferry and drive through quickly on their way to somewhere else.  I'm struggling to think of a nice one in England or Wales, although lots of the Scottish ones are pretty.

[Mountain Goat]

Fishguard is actually quite a nice looking place. 

[Zomboid]

St Malo was a reasonably pleasant place when I spent the day there a long time ago (waiting for the ferry). But that's obviously in France.

[caradoc]

8 hours ago, Northmoor said:

although lots of the Scottish ones are pretty.

 

And some are not ! Many years ago the wife and I drove up to see friends in Tarbert, on Harris. The ferry terminal for Tarbert is Uig, on Skye. We were running early so decided to park at Uig and look round the 'town'......Suffice to say we ended up driving to the nearest hill with a view of the sea through the rain, which was infinitely more exciting than Uig.

 

And years before that, on the way to Ireland, I arrived at Holyhead, along with a handful of other passengers, for the summer-only additional morning sailing, only to find that Sealink had deferred its operation for several weeks ! Rather than waste several hours in Holyhead I did a train trip to Bangor and back.

 

[The Johnster]

15 hours ago, Mountain Goat said:

Fishguard is actually quite a nice looking place. 

Yes, and the old harbour is lovely and there are some good pubs.  The ferry terminal doesn't have much going for it, though this is really not quite Fishguard.  It's a bit of a walk between the two on a rainy day, and just that bit too far for ferry punters who always have to keep an eye on the time.

 

6 hours ago, caradoc said:

Rather than waste several hours in Holyhead

Weather dependent, there are cracking walks out to Old Stack, which is a good place for seabirds.

 

The place you really don't want to be stranded at, though, is Pembroke Dock, a post industrial wasteland with a rough estate.  Go to Pembroke proper if you can where there's decent pubs and the castle.  Rosslare's a bit bleak but Waterford's up the road, worth the taxi fare.  

[Mountain Goat]

Pembroke Dock is not that bad as it does have areas of interest to lookat, but I will say that Pembroke is a rather special place! The castle makes the difference.

[Tricky-CRS]

Carmarthen-Aberystwyth and Bangor and Caernarfon close gaps which mean you could travel from North Wales to south without leaving Wales. Currently you have to go via Chester, Shrewsbury, Birmingham etc to go from any where in mid to North Wales south. Brecon real should be on the rail network as a major tourist area and could link up into mid Wales. Its not purely about numbers but opening up areas and connecting North and South.

[Mountain Goat]

I will also add that what one views as bleakness does vary from person to person. For example, I found St Clears (Yay. Spelt it right I hope!) to be a rather pleasant little town. The only negative side which prevents people from calling in to go shopping there in recent years (And this has been very noticeable) was the decision to charge for parking. 

Now I found Whitland to be the opposite. It was like being in a wild west ghost town. I must have gone there on their closing day (Most towns in this area have a day of early closing or complete closing. E.g., Llanelli is on a tuesday). So I found not a lot open. I sat on the station to get back towards Carmarthen. I had about 45 minutes or more to wait for the next train. In all that time, once every few minutes the occasional car passed on the level crossing, and the wind blowing the station sign were the only sounds. The sign was squeeling back and fore now and then in the wind...... I was waiting for tunbleweed to pass!

Like I said before. If it wasn't for Whitland being a junction station it was surprizing why it was kept open. Why was St Clears closed when Clarbeston Road was not? Those who tried it on with guards without paying were known to be dropped off at Clarbeston Road as punishment as it was so remote! It wouldn't surprize me if the population there doubled due to this!

I never forget one guard telling me and other guards and drivers not to pick certain people that he had had trouble with and he had dropped off there. He gave us a good description. A few days later I passed and they were still there trying to catch a train! It is that remote!

The placing of some stations puzzles me at times.

And I have to mention Sugarloaf Halt on the Central Wales line (Heart Of Wales line).  I was working a train and it was a rarity to stop there, but one evening after coming through the long tunnel the driver gave me one on the buzzer and started to pull in. Now while we are supposed to use the single door, a class 153 will just about fit both doors on that platform... Just! But when we stopped, I saw this young man with a tablw cloth on the platform and a wholw three course meal complete with lit candles and all accessories. Knives, and forks laid out, wine in glasses etc. He had the lot! I had to ask if he was coming on the train. He said "No thanks. I am waiting for my girlfriend".  I hope they enjoyed. By the time we reached Llanwrytyd Wells and came back down they along with everything else had been cleaned up.

I can remember another amuzing tale about that halt, but I have written a lot for now, so I better leave it for another time.

[Mountain Goat]

13 minutes ago, Tricky-CRS said:

Carmarthen-Aberystwyth and Bangor and Caernarfon close gaps which mean you could travel from North Wales to south without leaving Wales. Currently you have to go via Chester, Shrewsbury, Birmingham etc to go from any where in mid to North Wales south. Brecon real should be on the rail network as a major tourist area and could link up into mid Wales. Its not purely about numbers but opening up areas and connecting North and South.

Even if the average speed is low, it is a whole lot easier if one could go straight up rather then go the very long way round through England. This is the main reason to why re-opening the line would be a good idea if it were possible.

[Tricky-CRS]

12 minutes ago, Mountain Goat said:

Even if the average speed is low, it is a whole lot easier if one could go straight up rather then go the very long way round through England. This is the main reason to why re-opening the line would be a good idea if it were possible.

 

Bearing in mind you often have to change somewhere in England at least once. Certainly from my Parents in Carno you have to change in Birmingham somewhere or Shrewsbury depending on the next part of the journey.

[Mountain Goat]

13 minutes ago, Tricky-CRS said:

 

Bearing in mind you often have to change somewhere in England at least once. Certainly from my Parents in Carno you have to change in Birmingham somewhere or Shrewsbury depending on the next part of the journey.

It is why I have never done the journey by rail even when I worked on the railways and could have done it for free at the time. The thought of changing trains at such a large city station... 

 

The largest station I had to work into was Cardiff Central which was large enough as it had seven platforms in operation by the time I left the railway. Now at least I knew the method of working so I could fine my next train.  I have to laugh. I was once waiting for a train which was my next working, and I was waiting on platform 6&7 area, I saw a driver who was waving at me on platform 1&2 area as he had found out that I was working the service with him, and we watched our train turn up on platform 4 in the middle of us. Luckily the survice was a duplicate to Newport and back that then formed a Valleys Lines service so the passengers had a train just before and a train just after. It normally came down from the Valleys, hence why I happened to be waiting on platfoems 6&7.

 

But anyway. The thought of coping with crowded cities to change... We really neet to re-open the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line but it may need to branch off Llandeilo and come from there instead along the old Llandeilo to Carmarthen trackbed as at Carmarthen, the need for a higher flood prevention wall may ake connecting with Carmarthen station difficult. Though nothing is impossible.

[Ben B]

I think another problem with the north-south run would be the need for additional funding on the existing Cambrian lines; the coast route has been slashed back to pretty much the minimum possible without just turning it into a long siding. Theres what, three sidings between Mach and the end of the line? Passing loops only at Towyn, Barmouth, Harlech and Porthmadog? I'd have thought you'd need to spend a fortune on reinstating passing loops, signalling etc to even accomodate just a few new services (not to mention making everything ERTMS capable). And what of the trains themselves? The days of long loco hauled (or even 3-4 unit dmu's) are well over. What would be the point if, like the Borders railway, you've a shiny new/upgraded route built to a low budget with only the capacity for a 2-car overcrowded class 158 a few times a day?

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Yes, and the old harbour is lovely and there are some good pubs.  The ferry terminal doesn't have much going for it, though this is really not quite Fishguard.  It's a bit of a walk between the two on a rainy day, and just that bit too far for ferry punters who always have to keep an eye on the time.

 

Weather dependent, there are cracking walks out to Old Stack, which is a good place for seabirds.

 

The place you really don't want to be stranded at, though, is Pembroke Dock, a post industrial wasteland with a rough estate.  Go to Pembroke proper if you can where there's decent pubs and the castle.  Rosslare's a bit bleak but Waterford's up the road, worth the taxi fare.  

I wrote a similar message last night but it seems to have disappeared.  Tourists often get an idealised view of Pembrokeshire, seeing only the beautiful coast or small towns like Solva.  Pembroke Dock, for a long time, had one of the highest unemployment rates in Wales, higher than post-industrial Valleys towns.  I stopped there for a couple of hours on a Saturday afternoon a few years ago and found that with the exception of Asda, the town was shut.  And you're right, Fishguard Harbour is actually in Goodwick and Waterford/Wexford are very nice.

[caradoc]

1 hour ago, Ben B said:

like the Borders railway, you've a shiny new/upgraded route built to a low budget with only the capacity for a 2-car overcrowded class 158 a few times a day?

 

The Borders railway, even with its 'low budget' and resulting single line sections, supports a half-hourly train service !

 

North/South Wales rail may sound a nice thing to have, but are there any estimates for a) how much it would cost to build, and b) what level of annual subsidy would be required ?

 

 

[mikejames]

it seems to me a north wales to south wales inside wales is a political rather than a transport objective.

If wales wants such a facility then fine - but wales should pay.

I don't know how many people wish to travel regularly from south west wales (Pembroke) to north west wales (Bangor) but not many I suspect. For more easterly travel -passing through England shouldn't be a geographical rather than a political problem.

I suspect this is a money isn't important discussion

mike james

 

 

 

 

[Tricky-CRS]

15 minutes ago, mikejames said:

it seems to me a north wales to south wales inside wales is a political rather than a transport objective.

If wales wants such a facility then fine - but wales should pay.

I don't know how many people wish to travel regularly from south west wales (Pembroke) to north west wales (Bangor) but not many I suspect. For more easterly travel -passing through England shouldn't be a geographical rather than a political problem.

I suspect this is a money isn't important discussion

mike james

 

 

 

 

 

Its a big time issue travelling from Mid Wales or North Wales to South Wales via England, could you imagine the Scots putting up with all rail journeys between Glasgow and Edinburgh going via Newcastle? Or all Bristol to London Via Portsmouth or Manchester? Ultimately you do not know what the demand is until you build it and by building it you create the demand. 

[mikejames]

I agree I don't know what demand is - but the rest of the UK (England)

has to show there is a reasonable prospect of a return on investment before it happens

Why should wales be different?

Mike james

[Northmoor]

7 minutes ago, Tricky-CRS said:

 

Its a big time issue travelling from Mid Wales or North Wales to South Wales via England, could you imagine the Scots putting up with all rail journeys between Glasgow and Edinburgh going via Newcastle? Or all Bristol to London Via Portsmouth or Manchester? Ultimately you do not know what the demand is until you build it and by building it you create the demand. 

I hardly think you can compare Bristol, London, Glasgow and Edinburgh with Bangor and Swansea...... If you wanted to build railways to create demand, then you'd build a new railway from e.g. Whitland to Cardigan and run services every 30 minutes, just to see what happens.  But that isn't how you should spend eye-watering amounts of taxpayers' money.

If you want some idea of demand, take a look at the population density between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth, then up the Cambrian coast.  Consider that it's comparable with the population density of Pembrokeshire, which supports a (heavily-subsidised) train service of no more than 2/3-car DMUs on a roughly two-hourly interval, then ask if spending £750M is a sensible way to provide that.

I agree that travel times between Anglesey/Aberystwyth and Cardiff aren't great but improving line speeds on the North Wales Coast (plus electrification?) and Cambrian Main Lines would provide most of the benefit of a direct route at a fraction of the cost, but also much greater additional benefits for the many more people who DON'T only want to travel within Wales.

[Tricky-CRS]

Your missing o

4 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I hardly think you can compare Bristol, London, Glasgow and Edinburgh with Bangor and Swansea...... If you wanted to build railways to create demand, then you'd build a new railway from e.g. Whitland to Cardigan and run services every 30 minutes, just to see what happens.  But that isn't how you should spend eye-watering amounts of taxpayers' money.

If you want some idea of demand, take a look at the population density between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth, then up the Cambrian coast.  Consider that it's comparable with the population density of Pembrokeshire, which supports a (heavily-subsidised) train service of no more than 2/3-car DMUs on a roughly two-hourly interval, then ask if spending £750M is a sensible way to provide that.

I agree that travel times between Anglesey/Aberystwyth and Cardiff aren't great but improving line speeds on the North Wales Coast (plus electrification?) and Cambrian Main Lines would provide most of the benefit of a direct route at a fraction of the cost, but also much greater additional benefits for the many more people who DON'T only want to travel within Wales.

 

Yeah I agree a lot of it is politics, but your missing out the university and tourist traffic that currently uses mid and north wales lines. This would also increase with north south route. As part of devolution you can not say a part of the country shouldn't have an internal system because its too expensive when we collectively closed it in the first place. Its not new like HS2 its replacing what has been taken away.

[Northmoor]

7 minutes ago, Tricky-CRS said:

Your missing o

 

Yeah I agree a lot of it is politics, but your missing out the university and tourist traffic that currently uses mid and north wales lines. This would also increase with north south route. As part of devolution you can not say a part of the country shouldn't have an internal system because its too expensive when we collectively closed it in the first place. Its not new like HS2 its replacing what has been taken away.

If University and Tourist traffic already uses those lines, than that's an even bigger reason not to build the route, you're just extracting traffic from elsewhere on the railway.  Unless you are going to generate huge amounts of new traffic for the railway as a whole, the justification doesn't exist.

[Zomboid]

The existing service enables people from the north and south coasts of Wales to get to places like Chester, Shrewsbury and Hereford. None of them are in Wales of course, but they're pretty significant destinations and traffic sources in their own right. Where would an entirely within Wales route run through that would be remotely comparable?

 

The middle of Wales is a lovely place, and a lot of its charm is directly linked to the lack of population density.

[Metr0Land]

20 hours ago, Tricky-CRS said:

Carmarthen-Aberystwyth and Bangor and Caernarfon close gaps

 

We had a running farce here for about 4 years where the Tafia were wanting to reopen Carmarthen-Aberystwyth,  Plenty of hype in press releases, then an initial study which was loaded to be very hopeful, then £300k spent on a much more detailed consultancy.

 

The geography hasn't changed since the time of Beeching.  Bus services with their lower cost base can't pay their way from fare box takings alone.  The more detailed consultancy quietly descoped some of the project to reduce costs, massively incresed 'social benefits' (ie trying to put money values on 'increased access to jobs' etc).  The project was quoted at £500M for which you can read £750M in all probability.

 

Anyway even at £500M and with all the intangible benefits very optimistically loaded, it came out as paying back 53p 43p in the £ and that includes all the intangible benefits, not 53p 43p in the pound through the fare box.  Not surprisingly it's all gone very quiet.

 

Am all in favour of funding public transport rather than road but this was always a non-starter with over £1/3M wasted without even considering light rail or boosting bus services.  Am also annoyed they didn't even consider using standard gauge rail operating under light railway conditions as happens on the Heart of Wales line and the Pembroke branch, though suspect the infrastructure costs wouldn't be much lower but they never considered anything other than 'proper' rail (don't blame the consultants - it's what they were paid to do).

 

So now we have nothing under consideration when a wider approach might have yielded something.

 

Edit: Just realised I have the executive summary on my pc, and the return is actually 43p in the pound not 53p

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Metr0Land
Proof read after hitting enter

[corneliuslundie]

Can anyone give me an estimate of likely ridership of Carmarthen-Aberystwyth and Afon Wen-Bangor lines?

And bear in mind that there will be either reversals or changes at Aberystwyth and Machynlleth/Dovey Junction.

Also, current trains on the Cambrian Coast line are all stations (they have to be). How would you fit fast trains between the north and south in with these on a single line route?

I am proud to be (sort of) Welsh but we have to be realistic. The major flows are not between north and south Wales but between the major Welsh towns and cities and England. Compared with those, anything else will be minute.

I suspect that an express coach service between say Swansea and Bangor via Carmarthen could carry all the traffic with a couple of services a day. It could serve all the "major" places en route and use existing roads. If Wales has money to spend on transport it is much better used providing what is needed now rather than trying to re-create the past.

I fully understand the desire for an all-Wales route but the topography and population density of much of the country are against it.

Brecon/Aberhonddu was mentioned as an important place: population 7901, natural main destination for shopping etc Hereford.  Aberystwyth is about 19,000. The only place in the whole of Powys with a population of over 10,000 is Newtown which would not be on any N-S route. What else do you have? Lampeter 3000, Aberaeron under 2000, Cardigan 4000, Tregaron 1200, Strata Florida 712.

And I do not see all the students in Aber wanting to visit Carmarthen and vice versa. Or indeed many of them actually coming from places on the route. Maybe a rugby team a couple of times a year!

So let's concentrate on what would be useful and is feasible. Owain Glyndwr hasn't woken up yet to rescue the country.

Jonathan

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks Metr0Land. Sorry I forgot Llandysul, population 1439 (that is the one in Ceredigion, not the one in Powys).

Jonathan

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 05/06/2020 at 18:09, The Johnster said:

As for a through route north-south, say, Cardiff-Holyhead, this has been a dream for a century and a half, but does not have a good track (sorry) record.  It's modern equivalent is the largely pointless political statement of a daily air service from Rhoose to Valley.  It could at one time be achieved by rail, without going east of the dyke, via the Mid Wales from Brecon or the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth route, thence via Dovey Jc to Pwllheli and the Afon Wen route or Dolgellau-Bala Jc-Blaenau Ffestiniog-Conway.  A serious undertaking for anyone mad enough to attempt it, with frequent changes and slow trains, single lines once north Merthyr or Carmarthen.  It was quicker and much easier to go over 100 miles out of your way through the English Marches.  

 

By road nowadays it cannot be done sensibly in much less than 5½ hours, while if the traffic is kind to you on the M6 you can easily do it in an hour less via Birmingham, 200 miles out of your way but you probably break even on the fuel.  Imagine you were trying to build a railway to do this journey now from scratch.  You'd probably want to have a spinal route from Brecon to Bala as direct as possible, Brecon tapping South and West traffic and Bala tapping it from the Deeside conurbations via a re-opened Wrexham-Dolgellau/Barmouth Jc route.  You'd have a hub at Moat Lane assuming the use of the old Mid Wales trackbed for interchange with the existing Cambrian.  But look at the terrain between Moat Lane and Bala.  If you go over Llanbrymair there is a valley leading due north that will start you off, but you're soon in major geophysical doodoo in some very rough country.  It'll cost about the same as HS2, and there will not be 100th of the traffic!  Your speeds are going to be pegged back by curvature and gradients, probably 70mph and 50 in some sections.

 

The Manchester and Milford was not a success.  There is a reason for that; it was easier to go via Crewe, the North to West, and the SWML.  I'm Welsh and proud of it, left wing nationalist by politics though gawdelpus if we ever gain power when I look at some of my fellow travellers, but even I cannot see any future in a north-south route entirely, or even mostly, within Wales.  They've been improving the A470 to 50mph north of Merthyr for about half a century now and it's still a sub 30mph mess between Trawsfynydd and Llanrwst over the Crimea, not to mention the biker killer bend just north of Storey Arms.

 

South Coast to North or vice versa by road is spectacular on a fine clear day if you're not in any rush; cruise along, take in the scenery, stop for lunch somewhere in central Powys, make sure you've started with a full tank if it's a Sunday.  Otherwise, take the English motorways and look where you're going.  By rail, use the North to West and relax; break your journey at Shrewsbury or Ludlow for lunch if you've time.

 

There is an easy answer to this. Wales should annexe Herefordshire and Shropshire. We have Welsh Water and Trains for Wales already.