The Night Mail

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Happy Hippo said:

Whatever plan is eventually thought up by the government of the day, it will be wrong, and the general population will whinge like nobodies business🤣.

 

The truth of the second half of this sentence is independent of the truth of the first half.

[SM42]

It would have been easy to add duty to all road fuels and get rid of VED, if the electrical genie had mot already been released, by the use of separate meters for car charging, unlocked by the combination of vehicle and meter being linked  ( a sort of Bluetooth type arrangement)

 

The only way now would be a separate system for the cars that predate the technology 

 

It does seem odd that one road fuel is exempt from duty as well as the vehicle that used it.

 

Andy

Edited March 19 by SM42

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, SM42 said:

It does seem odd that one road fuel is exempt from duty as well as the vehicle that used it.

 

But that is deliberate policy, to encourage the transition away from internal combustion vehicles; doubly necessary given the initial high first cost of electric vehicles. As electric vehicles become the norm, so their first cost will decrease and the tax on them increase.

[PhilJ W]

Is it not impossible to fit a smart meter to electric cars and charge for the mileage used (road charging)?

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It would be iniquitous to impose Road Tax on electric vehicles, since it has not been charged on internal combustion vehicles since 1937.

 

Ok, Vehicle Tax.  But "Road Tax" means prodding fewer letters on a tablet...

 

As for taxing road use for electric vehicles, a "simple" way might be for all cars to have to attend an MOT test, not just those over 3 years old.  Up to and including the third year, this would merely consist of tyre checking and recording the mileage, which would then be forwarded to the DVLA who would then issue a tax demand for distance covered.

 

Fun all round!

 

 

Edited March 19 by Hroth

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Hroth said:

As for taxing road use for electric vehicles, a "simple" way might be for all cars to have to attend an MOT test, not just those over 3 years old.  Up to and including the third year, this would merely consist of tyre checking and recording the mileage, which would then be forwarded to the DVLA who would then issue a tax demand for distance covered.

 

That was what I had in mind. Clearly there is popular consensus on this idea.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Ok, Vehicle Tax.  But "Road Tax" means prodding fewer letters on a tablet...

 

This is a model railway forum. All forms of pedantry up to and including rivet counting are inevitable.

[Happy Hippo]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This is a model railway forum. All forms of pedantry up to and including rivet counting are inevitable.

You can just imagine the Daily Mail/Mirror/Express/Sun/Star/Sport headlines over that one:

 

Electric cars are to be taxed on the number of rivets used in their construction!

 

New industry watchdog to employ toy train buffs to enforce minimum rivet numbers in all new vehicles from 01 Apr 25.

[PhilJ W]

50 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Ok, Vehicle Tax.  But "Road Tax" means prodding fewer letters on a tablet...

As for taxing road use for electric vehicles, a "simple" way might be for all cars to have to attend an MOT test, not just those over 3 years old.  Up to and including the third year, this would merely consist of tyre checking and recording the mileage, which would then be forwarded to the DVLA who would then issue a tax demand for distance covered.

Fun all round!

That could be achieved by what I suggested, a smart meter could easily deliver the data over the mobile phone network in the same way as a domestic smart meter.

 

[iL Dottore]

2 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

The easiest way to tax people is to add a proportion to fuel duty (this would be charged at the pump, or at the charging socket (home and commercial charging station). This would ensure that those that drove the most were charged the most.

Three points, if I may:

 

1) how do you propose taxing a charging socket that derives all its power from an independent solar panel - with not one erg coming from the National Grid (I can see fat and happy times ahead for m’learnéd friends as they argue for/against such taxation).

 

2) What, exactly, the point of vehicle tax? If it is to maintain the quality and safety of the UK’s roadways, then - by the numerous anecdotal accounts of the state of the UK’s roads - it’s a pretty pointless tax.

 

3) Micro-EVs are being developed and rolled out across the world. These are designed for intra-urban use (easy to park, easy to charge, adept for city use). Depending upon top speed and power rating, many are not classifiable as cars, but rather “quadricycles” or variations on a motorbike - with concomitant changes in tax and insurance status. I can see these becoming very popular due to low costs and the fact by their very nature they are exempt from ULEZ and congestion charges. Widespread take up of such vehicles would certainly alter the tax picture.

 

Edited March 19 by iL Dottore
Spelling

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

2) What, exactly, the point of vehicle tax?

 

It is a form of general taxation and is in no way ring-fenced, any more than alcohol duty is ploughed back into subsidising public houses. 

[iL Dottore]

36 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It is a form of general taxation and is in no way ring-fenced, any more than alcohol duty is ploughed back into subsidising public houses. 

I see!

So it’s just another “sneaky, underhand way for the government to get its hands on your cash - without explicitly promising you anything for it” tax? 🤣

[Tony_S]

15 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

I see!

So it’s just another “sneaky, underhand way for the government to get its hands on your cash - without explicitly promising you anything for it” tax? 🤣

No it is an excise duty. I had to pay extra duty for the first five years after registration of my car, not due to its emissions but because its price when new exceeded a particular value. If I wanted that type of car, it was going to need to be paid, if I didn’t like it, I buy a cheaper car, it wasn’t exactly sneaky or underhand. It is taking money off people who can afford it which seems fair to me. 

Edited March 19 by Tony_S

[SM42]

11 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

I see!

So it’s just another “sneaky, underhand way for the government to get its hands on your cash - without explicitly promising you anything for it” tax? 🤣

 

It is indeed. 

 

Like the VAT 9n fuel duty, air passenger tax, insurance tax, buying a house tax, selling a house tax, dying tax. 

 

If there's a large sum a percentage can be charged on,  or a basic freedom or legal necessity, they'll find a way to tax it. 

 

Andt

[SM42]

2 minutes ago, Tony_S said:

No it is an excise duty. I had to pay extra duty for the first five years after registration of my car, not due to its emissions but because its price when new exceeded a particular value. If I wanted that type of car, it was going to need to be paid, if I didn’t like it, I buy a cheaper car, it wasn’t exactly sneaky or underhand. It is taking money off people who can afford which seems fair to me. 

 

An awful lot of cars, even thd ones they want us to drive  are either in or rapidly heading towards that tax bracket. 

 

If only there was an alternative transport system that gave adequate and affordable coverage to 99% of the country.

 

Andy

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It is a form of general taxation and is in no way ring-fenced, any more than alcohol duty is ploughed back into subsidising public houses. 

And much more Importantly,but ever stated,it provides a means of identifing  the vehicle and the registered keeper. Where would my former colleagues plus all the parasitic companies that charge for parking, be with our Vehicle Excise numbers. 

 

Jamie

Edited March 19 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

without explicitly promising you anything for it

 

Except perhaps defence of the realm, criminal justice, and social security?

[SM42]

They even tried to tax us for being over 18. 

 

As you may well remember it did not end well and some are, unbelievably,  trying to bring that idea. 

 

Andy

Edited March 19 by SM42

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, SM42 said:

They even tried to tax us for being over 18. 

 

As you may well remember it did not end well and some are, unbelievably,  trying to bring that idea. 

 

Well, there's a difference between just and equitable taxation and unjust and inequitable taxation.

 

Who are "they" anyway?

[Oldddudders]

Having justly discouraged tobacco sales, and thus use, the tax coffers are somewhat emptier than when people puffed away happily. 

[SM42]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Well, there's a difference between just and equitable taxation and unjust and inequitable taxation.

 

Who are "they" anyway?

 

They,  are whoever happens to be in government.

 

The basic problem of how to fund a state and its machinery is not an easy one to solve to the satisfaction of all, but it's so hellishly complex nowadays that there is little chance of not paying something somehow, regardless of your means. 

 

Andy

 

[SM42]

On a positive note, despite the overnight rain, the lawn has dried enough to get a first cut on it this year

 

It was starting to get out of hand, looking, more like a fallow meadow than a lawn. 

 

A lot of phone calls are now on the cards to sort a week's worth of stuff out.  

 

Andy

[Happy Hippo]

31 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Except perhaps defence of the realm, criminal justice, and social security?

Defence of the realm?

 

In your dreams:  I'm afraid after so many cut backs on defence spending we'd be hard pushed to defend Barry Island from an influx of day trippers from Bristol.

Edited March 19 by Happy Hippo

[Tony_S]

9 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

an influx of day trippers from Bristol.

It must have been a major event as I can still remember Dad talking about something similar. When I was between the age of 3 and 6 years old we lived in Clevedon in Somerset. Apparently a gang of Teddy Boys from Bristol arrived at the local railway station one Saturday evening and after being spoken to by a police officer, knocked his helmet off, pushed him over and ran off. There was also some trouble at the local cinema. There were reassurances from local police it wouldn’t happen again. The next weekend the same PC was there but accompanied by his sergeant. The visitors left, never to return, certainly not as a gang. One of them had to be carried to the train. 

[Willie Whizz]

There are probably a few minor exceptions, but basically HM Treasury doesn’t believe in “hypothecation” of tax revenues, and resists any attempt to introduce it.
 

Whatever label is put upon a tax, the money raised all goes into the central pot; and the Government of the day spends whatever it feels it needs to or can afford to on an issue, irrespective of how much the tax notionally linked to that issue has raised. 

So putting vehicle taxes up emphatically doesn’t mean any more will necessarily get spent on roads, or any other transportation infrastructure .