The Night Mail

[New Haven Neil]

Funny old things, strategic reserves.  The problem with them being tucked away out of sight, is that folk can sneak in and borrow one....

 

[Happy Hippo]

Am I a perfectionist, or just plain bonkers?

 

On the desk is a signalling diagram I am working up for Aberflyarff. It is quite simple consisting of a couple of single signal posts and  four ground signals.

 

However, it's not the visible signalling that I'm concerned about, but the signals that would have been just off scene.

 

Now on a model railway, they really don't matter, as they are in the realm of 'rest of the railway'. But whether I'm being pig headed or plain bonkers, I need to know that the diagram is feasible.  I suppose the sticking point is whether I need to justify a backing signal or not. 

 

For one of the shunting moves I have planned, the loco will be out of sight of the siding it has to reverse into due to line curvature and a bridge blocking the view of the signal box from the footplate.  The quandary is because I believe that either a verbal or visual signal is needed in addition to the backing signal being cleared.

 

The north end of the station is also a bit of a problem as the line north is singled. So if this is the case, would any train engine requiring to run around need the single line token? At present I've inserted a second trailing crossover to allow a run around move to take place within the double track station limits.  There is a precedent for this at Whitchurch (Glam) where the general freight service terminated, and the line from Whitchurch to Coryton was single.

 

I presume the crossover at Whitchurch was needed as the line beyond was worked by train staff and not by electric token. so if a train was in the single lie section the loco performing the run around could not enter the single line section.

 

Of course the history of the Cardiff Railway is quite fascinating.  It was thwarted with it's plan to run from Treforest Junction on the TVR, along it's own metals until it linked up with the Rhymney Railway at Heath Junction and then shared the line down to the Docks, where it owned considerable trackage.  as a result traffic was sparse and after 1923 Grouping, it was only a matter of time before the line north of Coryton was abandoned, although the track was left in situ.

 

Post WWII, the line was reopened as a single line from Coryton (which was and still is a passenger terminus) through to Nantgarw  for colliery traffic.

 

The operation being something like this:

 

The train of empties collects train staff at Whitchurch and proceeds to Coryton where it stops and the trap point is opened allowing access onto the freight only branch up to Nantgarw.

 

The train draws onto the branch and the trap is re set.  The staff is then returned to Whitchurch, allowing the passenger section to be used whilst thefreight  train is north of Coryton.

 

On the train's return to Coryton, the staff has to be collected from Whitchurch to allow the trap point to be closed, and letting the freight train proceed back to Whitchurch.

 

Now the question I need to know the answer to is whether there was a specific person who acted as a sort of pilot man for this operation, thus freeing up the train crew to depart as soon as they were on the freight only section, or whether the fireman had to walk back to Whitchurch with the staff and then return to Coryton to rejoin the train engine.  He'd then have to repeat this on the return journey.

 

It would mean that the train would be standing around for between 20-30 minutes on both  legs of the journey.

 

Possibly with fairly loose train timings and cheap labour, this was considered sufficient, but it does seem rather wasteful in man hours.

 

I suppose it was also a bit of a nudge to get the connection from the main ex TVR line to Nantgarw  built and commissioned as a double track branch was always going to be more efficient, and routing directly through to Radyr, much better for onward distribution.

 

That's an awful lot of explanation for the reason an off scene crossover might be required.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Happy Hippo

[Philou]

Now, I know naff all about staffs other than for protecting trains, but it does seem to me rather wasteful that a train would be hanging around for 20/30 minutes for someone to go back down the line to fetch/take the staff. I assume that the train would not be encumbering the line during that time to allow passenger services to continue as far as Coryton? Would Mike, The Stationmaster, be able to assist in this?

 

I never understood why the terminus was at Coryton and not Tonywineglass - why was that? And here's another thing, whilst the M4 was being constructed, why wasn't an opportunity taken to create at least a formation between Coryton and Radyr to create a 'proper' City Circle? I am led to believe that it could still be done, but Amersham International may have views on that.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Happy Hippo]

The information I quoted from memory was not quite correct, as I've checked the Cardiff Railway book by Eric Mountford which contains  a reprint of the relevant Appendix to the service timetable.  It involves the use of a traffic man:  Looking at the time he would have spent hanging around doing nothing, it was very wasteful of time!  Would they have recovered the detonators referred to below, for re use or would they have had a small fireworks party every time a train used the line?

 

I've copied the Appendix here as it is both historic and educational.

 

Note the use of the term Catch point to describe a Trap point.  One of the GWR's little idiosyncrasies!

Edited September 7, 2020 by Happy Hippo

[bbishop]

Richard, Mike (Stationmaster) will know the answer.  On my railways, DB would have a Rangierhalttafeln, LSWR might use an outer home and a shunt ahead/limit of shunt combination.

 

Busy today.  Bill

[Happy Hippo]

45 minutes ago, Philou said:

 

 

I never understood why the terminus was at Coryton and not Tonywineglass - why was that? And here's another thing, whilst the M4 was being constructed, why wasn't an opportunity taken to create at least a formation between Coryton and Radyr to create a 'proper' City Circle? I am led to believe that it could still be done, but Amersham International may have views on that.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

The reason for the termination of the passenger (and freight service) north of Coryton  was the lack of revenue for that section of line, it was almost non existent.

 

For many years a proper circular line has been mooted.  It would have been better done when they were building J32 of the M4.  The costs for such a project now would be incredible.

 

However, there is talk of extending beyond Coryton along the existing track bed to a new terminus which would incorporate a park and ride facility. I presume it would be behind Asda and  just before the J32 westbound up ramp.  Even that little project will require a lot of earthworks as the line used to come out of a cutting, over the canal and along an embankment.  the ground to the west continuing to drop down towards the river Taff.  any passenger line from Coryton would have to drop around 37 metres from  near Asda to the level of Radyr station on a very sharp curve in just over a mile so around a 800m radius curve. Call it 35 m in 2 Km which is under 1:100. (1.09m to climb in every 100 m travelled)

 

[Happy Hippo]

4 minutes ago, bbishop said:

Richard, Mike (Stationmaster) will know the answer.  On my railways, DB would have a Rangierhalttafeln, LSWR might use an outer home and a shunt ahead/limit of shunt combination.

 

Busy today.  Bill

Yes Mike will, and over the years I've learned a huge amount about how signalling is applied to track.  He also gets many queries, I'll give him a rest for now!

 

Since the track and signalling diagram at Whitchurch is  so similar to what I have planned, I think it's a good bet that it will be acceptable.

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, Happy Hippo said:

The information I quoted from memory was not quite correct, as I've checked the Cardiff Railway book by Eric Mountford which contains  a reprint of the relevant Appendix to the service timetable.  It involves the use of a traffic man:  Looking at the time he would have spent hanging around doing nothing, it was very wasteful of time!  Would they have recovered the detonators referred to below, for re use or would they have had a small fireworks party every time a train used the line?

 

I've copied the Appendix here as it is both historic and educational.

 

Note the use of the term Catch point to describe a Trap point.  One of the GWR's little idiosyncrasies!

 

Sometimes a job like that will pick up a second locomotive, either at Whitchurch, Heath Junction or Crwys Road. The job is timed so the Whitchurch trip progresses from Heath, up the branch. Or, the propelled train is put in at Coryton, to allow the passenger autotrain to access Coryton passenger side. I don't have a diagram of Coryton, however, so I could be completely wrong. 

 

Cue Mike!

[Happy Hippo]

Having had to correct some of the information I originally passed on yesterday, I decided to re-read some of the relevant sections of Mountford's Cardiff Railway.

 

More will follow later, but to whet the appetite, Coryton Halt was originally a small low level platform  along the curve towards Tongwynlais:  Apparently it was to have been called Asylum, due to it's proximity to Whitchurch Hospital (a psychiatric unit).  This was changed just a few days before the passenger service started. 

 

[Dave Hunt]

I'm becoming concerned about some of our Gungy Wet Rhubarb aficionados as they have been discussing parts of that system for several posts without mentioning pannier tanks! Is this a good thing or simply a sign of forgetfulness?

 

I'm still not 100% fit yet but getting there slowly and am trying to get my modelling mojo back into gear. Once I have undertaken a few domestic tasks today I'm determined that I'll get down to the shed and stick some bits of wood and plastic together in an attempt to produce something that looks Ike a miniature goods shed / PW depot.

 

Fascinating to muse on what the effect on passenger numbers would have been if instead of Coryton Halt the timetable showed trains to Asylum. 

 

Dave 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Dave Hunt
the bl**dy stupid censor programme wouldn't let me put goods shed c*m PW depot

[tomparryharry]

No, it's not forgetfulness. Panniers are like air; they're always there. In conversation, it's a bit of a 'given' 

 

I spent many years passing 'Asylum' to/from my way to work. Some of the 'locals' were interesting.

 

Johnster of this parish may have seen more, as he worked up to Coryton. 

[Happy Hippo]

To enlighten the illustrious Staffel Fuhrer, I will direct his attention to where he can be indoctrinated into the world of pannier tanks:

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nopanniers.html

 

There will be a test later

[Dave Hunt]

Aarghhhh....!!! I misguidedly clicked on HH's link and I think I am now mentally scarred for life. Quick, someone post a picture of a Johnson 0-4-4T and restore my peace of mind......

 

Dave

[Happy Hippo]

 

 

I thought I would include this map for the non South Walians who follow TNM.

 

Post 1951,  a double track link was put in from just north of Taffs Well to Glan Y Llyn, and the Cardiff Railway ended in a buffer stop just short of the new connection.

 

The line between Coryton Halt and this block was used for a short while for wagon storage.

 

As mentioned earlier, the original Coryton Halt was closer to Tongwynlais than the present station, and was a simple low level platform. when the passenger service was cut back to Coryton, it could only be used by auto trains as there was no run around facility, so a new platform was built slightly closer to Whitchurch and a loop was installed to allow running around. This loop was controlled by  a pair of ground frames, the keys being kept with the train staff at Whitchurch. 

 

A further ground frame was installed closer to Tongwynlais to control the trap point that was discussed earlier for the freight only section when it was in operation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Happy Hippo

[jamie92208]

33 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

To enlighten the illustrious Staffel Fuhrer, I will direct his attention to where he can be indoctrinated into the world of pannier tanks:

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nopanniers.html

 

There will be a test later

You need a parental guidance warning on that link.

 

Jamie

[jamie92208]

12 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

Aarghhhh....!!! I misguidedly clicked on HH's link and I think I am now mentally scarred for life. Quick, someone post a picture of a Johnson 0-4-4T and restore my peace of mind......

 

Dave

Your wish is my command Red Leader

Jamie

 

 

[Happy Hippo]

Talk about putting in a parental guidance link for pannier tanks.

 

Some bounder has just posted a picture of his big red Johnson!

 

The nerve of it, on a family friendly forum as well.

[tomparryharry]

9 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Talk about putting in a parental guidance link for pannier tanks.

 

Some bounder has just posted a picture of his big red Johnson!

 

The nerve of it, on a family friendly forum as well.

 

In the voice of Jim Bowen (of Bullseye fame)...

 

"Here's what you could've won....."

[jamie92208]

I'll have you know, young hippo that the aforesaid tank engine was judged and inspected by several Highfalutin members of the LMS society with a view to awarding it a cup. I believe that Red Leader was one of that august gathering.

 

Jamie

Edited September 8, 2020 by jamie92208

[Happy Hippo]

1 minute ago, jamie92208 said:

I'll have you know, young hippo that the aforesaid tank engine was judged and inspected by several Highfalutin members of the LMS society with a view to awarding it a cup. I believe that Red Leader was one of that august gathering.

 

Jamie

The quality of the offering was not in question

 

But showing your Johnson in public?

 

That Red leader was involved implies that it was some form of jolly jape beloved of servicemen world wide which got out of hand.

[Happy Hippo]

Back on track (dreadful pun).

 

Here is the SRS signalling diagram for Whitchurch (Glam) station.

 

The single line off to the right leading to Coryton, with authority to do so being by the train staff.

 

Note the crossover to allow a run around move by terminating trains which avoids having to enter the single line section.

 

This arrangement is what I have in mind for Aberflyarff, even though it would be off scene and not be visible.

 

The fact it reality the model will just be a hidden sector plate or a traverser at this location is besides the point.

 

In my mind's eye I have to know what is happening off scene.

 

I suppose it's part of building the big picture.

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

To enlighten the illustrious Staffel Fuhrer, I will direct his attention to where he can be indoctrinated into the world of pannier tanks:

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nopanniers.html

 

There will be a test later

 

1 hour ago, Dave Hunt said:

Aarghhhh....!!! I misguidedly clicked on HH's link and I think I am now mentally scarred for life. Quick, someone post a picture of a Johnson 0-4-4T and restore my peace of mind......

 

Dave

 

Two brilliant things about that page:

1. It's called No Panniers!
2. It's got lots of lovely pictures of really rather characterful saddle tanks, and even the odd side tank.

[Dave Hunt]

Phew! Jamie's post came just in time to restore my equilibrium; thanks Jamie. I've spent the last three quarters of an hour destroying green things (well, spraying weeds actually, not pannier tanks) and keeping in my mind's eye the image of that lovely 0-4-4T and Pullman car. It looks even better in the flesh, of course.

 

You aren't alone in wanting to understand the bigger picture HH. I recently spent some time gathering information from a friend who is an ex signal engineer for another RMW member on the signalling leading into Derby station. It won't feature on his layout per se but he wanted to get a good idea of what would be happening off stage so that the train movements can be as realistic as possible.

 

Time for some modelling methinks.

 

Dave

[Happy Hippo]

I hope vigour and not rigor has not set in as we continue the hypothetical signalling saga.

 

Having resolved to my satisfaction the 'northern' off scene point work and signalling, I turned my attention to the southbound down side of the model.

 

Again it was a case of what it would be like off scene, and whether a backing signal would be appropriate and justified.

 

I did a quick trawl through some of Mike, The Stationmaster's writings on GWR signalling matters (which is far better than just asking him yet another question), and found the following elsewhere within RMWeb:

 

 

'Before we progress to shunting signals we'll look at the final type of signal illustrated by dantimmy - the 'Backing Signal'. Backing signals of various patterns were a not uncommon sight on a number of Pre-Group railways but after the Grouping the only Company which retained the backing signal for new work was the GWR, elsewhere they died out - in some cases quite rapidly. The backing signal - unique appearance apart, no mistaking the arm with two holes in it - is quite a difficult thing to describe in terms of its use. In fact the GWR itself was rather confused over what the signal meant and there were a number of extended debates about this over the years, the Minute Books make fascinating reading. Basically it is best to start by recognising it as a signal which indicated that a particular route had been set for a backing movement - a backing movement being one proceeding in the opposite direction to the normal direction of travel on the line to which it applied. Indeed at around the peak time of their installation (the early 20th century up to the start of the Great War) that was exactly what they did and they were commonly used where there was a potential choice of routes because unlike a shunting signal they could be used with a route indicator - and the fact that the arm was lowered was not authority for a Driver to pass the signal, he could only do that on the instruction of whoever was in charge of the movement he was about to make. In later years this changed and in many respects the meaning of a backing signal was the same as that of a shunting signal although they were also used for wrong direction train movements (but officially not passenger train movements, they needed a proper stop signal with a full length arm just like the signals we came across at the start).'

 

Well that answers all the questions about the backing signal, and it is interesting and very helpful to see that in later years it was treated as any other shunting signal, so Aberflyarff will get a backing signal, even though it is off scene!

 

 

 

 

[Northroader]

Signalling in Derby?? Simples.