Minories in 7mm?

[Guest WM183]

Hi hi all.

I'm waiting on some of the LMS Locomotive Profiles books - namely the 4F and parallel boiler 2-6-4t books - and contemplating what I'd like to do with these engines once I tackle the builds. Now, I know this would be better done in 4mm - the locomotives are available and the Comet models kits make the coaches fun to build! - but is a Minories type layout something anyone's done in 7mm? I have a spare room with 14 feet - a shade over 4 meters - of wall. I'd love to be able to run a Fairburn or Stanier class 4 tank, or even a Black 5, with 3 or 4 coaches behind it, as well as have a parcel dock and a small goods store/shed. I don'tg know if i have the room, however. I think I'd like to avoid the "Rural BLT" if i can and do something more urban, though I still would like some greenery here and there!

How big (long) is a Class 4 or 5 and 4 coaches? 5 feet or so, yes?

Thinking, 

Amanda

[brossard]

Depends on what you like to do of course, but isn't running a passenger train in such a short length somewhat boring?

 

A shunting layout would be more interesting IMO.  You can get a small layout in the space.  My layout, 21 ft long incl 5' sector plate will take two 61' (B set) coaches in the station.

 

John

[Guest WM183]

6 minutes ago, brossard said:

Depends on what you like to do of course, but isn't running a passenger train in such a short length somewhat boring?

 

A shunting layout would be more interesting IMO.  You can get a small layout in the space.  My layout, 21 ft long incl 5' sector plate will take two 61' (B set) coaches in the station.

 

John

 

Oh, I agree it would be pushing things. That's why I asked! But... did LMS / BR (M) run short 2 car trains like that? Even the Ivatt push-pull trains were 3 cars long, weren't they? I love shunting, but I'd like to have some passenger services too.

[t-b-g]

Having built a couple of Minories inspired layouts in EM, I would say that they are great fun to operate. You only need to have a very minimal goods/loading bay facility, which allows you to run a goods train in, drop or pick up a wagon and depart without having a full goods yard.

 

Having tail loads, vans, horse boxes etc. that can be added and removed gives a whole host of possible moves.

 

I am presently planning a similar layout but in 16ft. 8ft for the pointwork and 8ft for the platforms, which will take a 4-6-0 tender loco and 5 pre-grouping and therefore short short bogie carriages.

 

I have used very big radius points in my design and also made the approach straight rather than with the familiar Minories S bend. It would be quite easy to fit it in 14ft by approx 2ft 6" width by going back to the original Freezer pointwork arrangement.

[34006]

Don't forget: Rule one always applies.

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[Joseph_Pestell]

57 minutes ago, WM183 said:

 

Oh, I agree it would be pushing things. That's why I asked! But... did LMS / BR (M) run short 2 car trains like that? Even the Ivatt push-pull trains were 3 cars long, weren't they? I love shunting, but I'd like to have some passenger services too.

In some locations, the LMS had 1 coach push-pull trains.

[Simond]

But probably not city centre commuter stations...

 

and whatever you allow for your station, consider how your trains will enter and depart, if you put a 90 degree bend at the end, it’ll eat up six feet of your wall length.

 

atb

Simon

[F-UnitMad]

2 hours ago, WM183 said:

How big (long) is a Class 4 or 5 and 4 coaches? 5 feet or so, yes?

No!! that's more like OO lengths. Just one coach is likely to be 18inch long, or maybe rather more!! (just a rough guess as I don't have any coaches).

[brossard]

Yes, some quick math tells me that a 61' coach is going to be around 18" from buffer to buffer.  Two coaches will eat up 3' of your 14' total length.  You will need a sector plate or some such that will need to be at least 4' 6" to accomodate 2 coaches and a loco. 

 

Standard Peco turnouts are quite long as is the fouling distance.  You can download turnout templates from Peco's site - this will give you an idea of what you are dealing with.

 

John

[Guest WM183]

Well, thanks much all. It seems I have indeed underestimated the lengths of things! I could deal with a 4' sector plate, which would give me a bit of a run to the platform. I suppose I can do a smallish terminus with a few industries nearby, plus a parcel dock, to give me some fun! For short trains like that, would it be the province of the Ivatt tanks or would other power ever have been used, like older class 3 tanks (The Fowler 2-6-2s for example)

Thanks much!

Amanda

[brossard]

Here's a couple of short layouts that I like:

 

Andy P's Trebudoc, very inspiring and only 9' long all in:

 

Pawson's Prize Winning Pickles is a short freight only layout:

 

John

 

 

[PatB]

If you can spare two walls and could build your own pointwork you could put the throat on a 90 curve and get more length for platforms and fiddle yard. Numerous threads on here have shown how well the Minories throat can work on a curve. The curve radius will be a bit tight for 0, but could likely be made to work, and tight curves don't look so bad viewed from the inside as this would be. 

[Marshall5]

Hi Amanda,

Good to hear that you are planning a layout.  Can I offer a couple of suggestions based on your original post?

Decide if you want a branch line terminus (BLT) or a goods/industrial shunting layout.  Then consider what region and time period you wish to portray as this will dictate your locos and rolling stock.

It sounds as if you might favour an ex LMS BLT and that gives quite a bit of scope but a lot of the 'small loco with 1 or 2 carriage' working would be gone by the late 50's (not excepting Rule 1 "It's my layout! and I'll run what I want").

There were some tiny termini such as Holywell worked by a single push-pull coach and an Ivatt tank IIRC.  Uppingham used an LT&S tank on a single carriage. Horwich had L&Y radials (later replaced by Std.84xxx) on 2 coach push-pulls right up to 1965. A 4F on a pick up freight could be seen on almost any ex LMS BLT.

As regards getting the length down to 14' you might consider something like "Carron Road" which was in an early MRJ.  This had a 'kick back' goods yard on the front right with a pivot plate behind it and hidden by a retaining wall. This, when rotated, gave access to a couple of storage sidings hidden behind the station (left front) and low-relief factory.  The downside of this space saving idea is that it should be viewed from the front with the operator behind so not ideal for a layout against a wall but doable.

Just some ideas.

Cheers,

Ray.

[Guest WM183]

HI all, 

 

A lot of responses and information here, Thank you all so much. My space is pretty much fixed at a single straight wall section.  There is a small wall on the right end I can use also to give an elongated L shape, but that short wall bit is only about 4 feet long, so not much help in 7mm scale. In 4mm, as in so many things,  it might be useful. 

 

I hope to do an LMS terminus (no room for a through station of course!) set just after nationalization,  maybe 1950 or so. I thought about the urban vs rural angle and would lean toward the former I think. For area... I don't know? Fairly far north, I suppose. Yorkshire someplace? 

 

I'd like to run moguls and 4fs at least, and tanks like Jintys (jinties?)  and maybe Ivatt tanks. I love 2-6-4ts and may get one anyway even if such an engine would likely he too big for such a line. I figure the fiddle yard will be on the right behind some suitably industrial buildings or terrace houses,  with the passenger terminal and platforms minories style (though likely smaller as discussed)  on the right. Perhaps a goods shed over here too. In the right in front of the fiddle yard is a bigger industry or two perhaps?

 

7mm definitely feels more personal and up close than 4mm!

[brossard]

Doing an L in such a small space may be an issue.  Your curve should have 6' radius to be comfortable (think about radius of 3' in 00).  Locos and stock will run on a rad. of 4' but that looks cramped and train set like.

 

LMS didn't have much of a presence in Yorkshire so the northwest is more likely.  Around Manchester for example.

 

Have a good think about this.  Planning a layout is fun.

 

For mine, I was concerned about the length of 0 Peco turnouts so I made my straight turnouts on a blown up template of Peco 00 small radius turnouts.  The scale factor is 199% to compensate for the gauge difference.  This makes the final product proportionately larger than a direct scale up.  Since my layout is now running I can confirm that they look and perform well.

 

John

Edited August 1, 2020 by brossard

[Nearholmer]

It’s all about compromises, which ones you’re happy to make, and which ones you aren’t.

 

This is coarse-wheel 0 scale, 8ft long by 16 inches wide, the platform being just over 4ft long, and the point-work is c39” radius*. It is possible to run-around 3x50ft coaches, just, although having built it I can now see a way of increasing both platform and runaround by 6” within the same overall length.

 

If you want/need larger radius point-work, it will consume a lot more length. Likewise, if you go for a two-road entry, length will go up to accommodate a crossover, although if you use a tandem turnout and a double-slip, instead of classic Minories, not by much.
 

Personally, I find a terminus-FY with this sort of terminus rather boring to operate. That’s how I use it at meetings/exhibitions, but at home it is part of a bigger layout.

 

But, the urban setting is good ...... intense operation feels acceptable.
 

* I think Minories was designed for 24” radius points in 00, which scales up to 42” radius in 0.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Guest WM183]

Hi John and Nearholmer (And Simon, and everyone else!)

I dont plan to try and use the short leg of the L in 0 gauge; there simply isn't enough room. At best it lets me curve the front of the layout somewhat to squeeze in an extra FY track or two, though I want to keep the layout 20-22 inches deep at most, so I don't have to strain and stretch to reach things too much. The right end can be deeper though, to 36 or so inches, for more precious space - or maybe even a small dockyard, with narrow boats etc as my aforementioned "industry". 

Coarse 0 is nice for its forgiving curves! However, I am going to do finescale 0, and will limit my train lengths to loco + 2 coaches. An Ivatt tank and a BTK/BCK would be the likely type of train for such a place, in my chosen time? That would be... oh, just about 4 feet long, so should be doable I think? Or even a BCK + a parcel van, or the like. 

I wonder if I am hoping for too much for my space. I'd like to run goods trains perhaps 4 wagons long + a brake van, and 2 coach passenger runs. Pretty short, but fun in 0 I thinks. For me the detailing and building is the funnest part, along with signals, working lighting in structures, and so on.

Amanda

[D9020 Nimbus]

There were quite a few ex-LMS BLTs in (West) Yorkshire — Clayton West, Meltham, Holmfirth, Oxenhope, Grassington (closed to passengers before nationalisation, though), Kirkburton…

[Nearholmer]

I think if I were in your position, Wanting to use fine wheels, I’d start With the biggest loco I’m likely to want (big in terms of fixed wheelbase and overhangs beyond the fixed wheelbase), then look closely at what radius it can be made to negotiate without too much chopping bits away to obtain clearances.

 

Naturally, if your big loco is a 2-6-2T or a 2-6-4T it will have a lot more end-swing and clearance issues around the pony/bogie wheels than if you stuck with an 0-6-0 (tank or tender).

 

This will dictate your minimum practical radius (bogie coaches and wagons vehicles rarely have large end-swing compared with locos with a pony, or worse still a bogie). 
 

Then have a look at what you can do with that radius, which may well be a lot tighter than the 72” used on most Peco points. Most 0-6-0 will cope with Peco set track, which is c40” radius, and I’d hazard that a small prairie (LMS or GWR) can be got happily round 50” or 60” without too much tweaking of things to obtain clearances.

 

You might be able to limit the use of the tight radius to a loco-release crossover as a way of preserving appearances, for instance, and tricks like that, together with judicious use of Y, tandem, and slip points can make an enormous difference to what is do-able in restricted length.

 

In my experience, 2-6-4T are the worst locos for tight spaces, because they have such enormously long “tail swing”, where the bunker hangs way outside the fixed wheelbase. Even the real things had to be tapered in plan to avoid them side-swiping things! 0-4-4T can be awkward for similar reasons, but tend not to be so big.

 

4F 0-6-0, on the other hand, is quite a “tight friendly” loco, if the tender isn’t super-tightly coupled to the loco, and they are surprisingly short, but they look big and impressive.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Happy Hippo]

Amanda, Just to confirm some sizes in 7 mm scale, although please excuse the clutter around the garage.  This is a Dapol  pannier and  B set which is sitting on on a four foot (1.2 m)  board:

Edited August 1, 2020 by Happy Hippo

[DCB]

Just the Maths kills an O gauge Minories in your 4 metre space.  O gauge is 7mm to one foot scale give or take a few %.   A 60 ft coach is  420mm plus buffers (2 X 10mm)  so a 4 coach set is over 1.7 metres, a big 2-6-4 is over 280mm so that's half your 4 metres gone with platforms, without approach trackwork. You can go tinplate with short coaches or Thomas the Tank style with 3 coach mainline trains but at the end of the day you have room for a nice Minories layout in OO but not in O.    O gauge is 7mm / ft  OO is 4mm ft so O is 7/4 times the length.

Minories would be unlikely to have a dedicated parcels platform, the non island platform would almost certainly be used off peak for parcels and there would almost certainly be an engine release crossover between the platforms so off peak trains could shunt without the need for a pilot loco.

You could model the LMS/LNER side of  Moorgate where each had one platform  and each ran trains in and sent them back with another loco which lurked in a loco spur 2 metres station, 2 metres FY that would be quite fun in O gauge. 

Edited August 1, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[Happy Hippo]

16 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

    O gauge is 7mm / ft  OO is 4mm ft so O is 7/4 times the length.

 

It is easier to say it's twice as long/ wide.  The fraction of extra length or width is really appreciated when it comes to laying out.

[kes]

Hi - have a look at Spital Bridge in the 7mm gauge section. It has an island platform, parcels facilities and a small goods yard, and it could be shortened to fit in your space. Good Luck with the project.  Kevin.

[Guest WM183]

So I think I will limit my trains to 2 coaches, as it seems that is what I can realistically expect to run in my space, or perhaps 3 full brakes or ccts. Now, what would a typical train of that type look like? A brake third and a composite, or a brake third and a brake composite? And does anyone make kits for 7mm LMS coaches?

[brossard]

2 coaches may work.  A brake 3rd to be sure and after that whatever takes your fancy.  I would go for all 3rd.

 

As I say, my layout will take two 61' coaches (B set belonging to a friend).  LMS coaches, I assume Stanier, were 57' long although I believe porthole stock was longer.

 

My parcels train has 3 vehicles, BR Mk 1 CCT (JLTRT), SR 4 wheeled PMV or CCT (Slaters) and Gresley BG (54' long) (Ian Kirk).  My Kirk BG came out looking very well indeed but you have to put a lot of work in.

 

Ian Kirk does all sorts of coaches.  These are plastic and quite inexpensive, around 45.00 for a "parts pack".  These are an aid to the scratchbuilder and you will spend at least as much again on wheels, couplings, buffers, seats etc.  I got mine from Invertrain.

 

CRT Kits has some LMS coach kits in their range, https://www.crtkits.co.uk/index.php/4.

 

I have one of their 6 wheel Thompson brakes to do so I can't say how well they go together yet.

 

There's Easybuild:  http://www.easybuildcoaches.co.uk/TOP/KIT RANGE.html

 

I daresay someone will come along with more info.

 

John