Will the "Parliamentary's" return?

[SHMD]

There are quite a few "Parliamentary" trains normally scheduled to run once a week around the UK.

They are often mentioned on TV and radio and there have been programs about them, even a series!

Some (trains/lines?) even have a bit of a following.

 

My local "Parliamentary" is the Stockport Stalybridge "Flyer".

It usually has about 5 or so regulars and then 5 to 15 visitors - it even gets 1 or 2 real passengers who, presumably, the various rail apps selected this train for them.

This used to set off from Stalybridge (Platform 2), on a Saturday morning, stay in Stockport (Platfrom 3a) and then return. A full round trip - luxury!

 

 

My questions are :-

 

Have all the "Parliamentary" trains been cancelled due to Covid-19?

Are some "Parliamentary's" still timetabled at the moment? (..and which are they?)

Do you think the "Parliamentary's" will return or will the TOC's take this opportunity to get rid of them entirely?

 

(Yes, I agree that they don't need to run at the moment due to the current pandemic...)

 

 

 

Some pics taken in March 2019. Setting off from Platform 2 Stalybridge.

(Anyone recognise the back of their own head?)

 

We arrive at Platform 3a, Stockport, only to find it already occupied.

(Sometimes, very rare, 3a is fully occupied so 'we' blocked the busy Platform 1 for an hour!)

 

..and ready to set off from Stockport to return to Stalybridge.

 

 

Kev. 

[The Stationmaster]

These of course are not 'Parliamentary' trains in the true meaning of the term because that legislation has long gone.  They are basically trains which are run to avoid the need to submit a proposal to close a particular section of railway route.  If a TOC decides to cease running any of these contemporary trains they will have to submit a notice of their intention to withdraw passenger trains services from the route concerned and seek a variation to the terms of their franchise.  

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

If a TOC decides to cease running any of these contemporary trains they will have to submit a notice of their intention to withdraw passenger trains services from the route concerned and seek a variation to the terms of their franchise.  

 

Is that relevant to suspensions of service in the current crisis? My understanding is that franchises are currently suspended, which I have taken to mean that TOCs are not subject to the full legal obligations of their franchise agreements, presumably at the discretion of DfT?

[Wheatley]

All franchise obligations are currently suspended until at least September.  The Paliamentaries (in the modern sense) will have to resume when the full timetable is restored and the government reinstates the franchises (unless they reinstate them on different terms) but at the moment any missing Parlies are not withdrawn, they just aren't running. Northern is not a franchise at the moment anyway, just to complicate things for the Stalybridge Flyer. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Wheatley

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Is that relevant to suspensions of service in the current crisis? My understanding is that franchises are currently suspended, which I have taken to mean that TOCs are not subject to the full legal obligations of their franchise agreements, presumably at the discretion of DfT?

No but it will be relevant when the franchises, or something else, resumes and if decisions are made to close lines.   Stockport - Stalybridge has long struck me as a very odd situation with a line which provides a link between three important routes out of Manchester having been totally neglected instead of being exploited to do what it used to do and provide connections between them which avoid the city centre.  It is very many years (the train we got off at Stockport was hauled by a Black 5) since I travelled over it but it was noticeable back then that many other passengers were doing exactly what we were doing and using it as a connecting route into a trans-pennine train at Stalybridge.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

No but it will be relevant when the franchises, or something else, resumes and if decisions are made to close lines.   Stockport - Stalybridge has long struck me as a very odd situation with a line which provides a link between three important routes out of Manchester having been totally neglected instead of being exploited to do what it used to do and provide connections between them which avoid the city centre.  It is very many years (the train we got off at Stockport was hauled by a Black 5) since I travelled over it but it was noticeable back then that many other passengers were doing exactly what we were doing and using it as a connecting route into a trans-pennine train at Stalybridge.

 

I suppose its heyday was as the LNWR route from the south to Yorkshire. No doubt very important for goods trains at that time. I went that way once in the days when I had a Student Railcard and plenty of time (1980s), travelling from Oxford to Leeds, for the sheer heck of it. 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Compound2632

[31A]

34 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

No but it will be relevant when the franchises, or something else, resumes and if decisions are made to close lines.   Stockport - Stalybridge has long struck me as a very odd situation with a line which provides a link between three important routes out of Manchester having been totally neglected instead of being exploited to do what it used to do and provide connections between them which avoid the city centre.  It is very many years (the train we got off at Stockport was hauled by a Black 5) since I travelled over it but it was noticeable back then that many other passengers were doing exactly what we were doing and using it as a connecting route into a trans-pennine train at Stalybridge.

I think a lot of it's usefulness went away when the Trans Pennine trains were diverted from Manchester Victoria into Piccadilly via Guide Bridge etc., as the link it provided with the LNW at Stockport was now achieved by one change (and a bigger choice of services) at Piccadilly, instead of having to change at Stalybridge and then again at Stockport.  More recently however the Liverpool Trans Pennine services have resumed running via Victoria ....

[Jeremy Cumberland]

5 minutes ago, 31A said:

More recently however the Liverpool Trans Pennine services have resumed running via Victoria ....

...but not stopping at Stalybridge.

 

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Is that relevant to suspensions of service in the current crisis? My understanding is that franchises are currently suspended, which I have taken to mean that TOCs are not subject to the full legal obligations of their franchise agreements, presumably at the discretion of DfT?

I wonder what the current legal requirements are. Franchisees may have been released from their obligations, but surely whatever requirement to run these services (under the 1962 Transport Act?) still exists.

 

Furthermore I wonder whether a TOC even has the power to seek a line's closure, since running these trains is presumably part of the franchise awarded by DfT. Perhaps it is DfT that has to request closure, although it would seem that they have no incentive to do so.

 

There certainly appear to be situations where only lip service is paid to the requirement to run "trains". Newhaven Marine (which presumably will now close, since closure proceedings were finally started in January this year) hasn't been served by a passenger train in years, although it gets (or used to get - I don't know the current situation) a regular ECS working. I have no idea what part of the statutory obligation is served by running an ECS rather than a passenger train. Apparently it is (or was) possible to book a free taxi for the 180 metre journey to Newhaven Harbour, and there is an interesting video here:

 

Other supposed "parliamentary" routes are treated in an equally lackadaisical fashion, particularly where no station stops are involved. The 0530 Saturdays Only Liverpool Street to Enfield train via (but not stopping at) Clapton and South Tottenham has hardly travelled via its booked route since 2016, although it has started doing so again in 2020 (and I think it still does even now). I don't think this can be blamed on the TOC since they, so far as I am aware, continued to run the train during this time, and presumably it is Network Rail who are to blame for a couple of curves in Tottenham not getting a passenger service all this time. I really cannot see that this service does anyone any good.

[Compound2632]

There's nothing very new in this. One of the oldest main lines in the country was the section of the Birmingham & Derby Junction Railway between Whitacre and Hampton in Arden - for a brief while part of the route from London to Scotland. Following the formation of the Midland Railway in 1844, this rapidly became a backwater. For many years it had a single passenger train each way per day to fulfill the Parliamentary obligation, serving the one intermediate station, Coleshill (later called Maxstoke); in the early 20th century this was worked by a 0-6-0 and a 6-wheel brake composite (formerly a slip carriage). The passenger service was withdrawn in 1917 - also under cover of a national emergency.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Compound2632

[SHMD]

The LNWR line from Leeds to Crewe was a very important route. So much so that from Hudderesfield - Stalybridge - Denton - Stockport portion was quadruple tracked.

 

When the Trans Pennine services were cut back from loco+seven bogies to a 2-car 158 (late 80s early 90s?), stopping hourly at Stalybridge, they routed the 158s via Piccadilly to :-

A/ reduce Manchester Victoria's through-services to allow the sale and development of %50 of its' through lines, and,

B/ to lose the Stockport Flyer and reduce the route to virtually a single line with passing places.

(The 158 were completely unsuitable for this change and a lot of Stalybridge folk stopped using the Station.)

 

In the 70s, the train from Stockport would wait just outside the Station until the Newcastle train had come to a halt on the then Platform 1. The Stockport Flyer would then come right up behind it and the passengers would have a short walk, past the BG and 1st class carriages, to get on. Within a few minutes the Liverpool bound service would pull into the then Platform 2 with the Stockport, and beyond, passengers alighting. The Liverpool train would then leave and the Stockport FLyer would then "crossover" to Platform 2 to pick up the Stockport bound passengers. This arrangement meant there was no changing platforms with bridges, ramp or steps and was most convenient.

(Blagging a ride from Platform 1 to Platform 2 was a favourite lunchtime activity of the local school chilkdren          )

The Stockport Flyer was then a 2 car DMU but later they knocked a carriage off (a very common practice around Manchester then) and it became one of those single car units, 550xx.) These 550xx's were very busy during rush-hour and you were luck to get a set!

 

I agree with Mike's assessment of how the Parliamentary has evolved over time.

We all learned in school history how the law was passed to make sure that there was at least 1 train calling at all stations to allow the working man to get home from working away.

This has now morphed into a control, on the "railways", to prevent them from just closing anything they feel like.

 

 

Kev.

[62613]

SHMD will no doubt be aware of the group who have been trying to get a Stockport - Victoria service via Denton for a few years now; I believe the biggest problem is, as it has it has been since the 2nd generation DMUs arrived, insufficient stock to run a regular service over this route. There was a reduction of the number in the early 1990s

 

[SHMD]

Following on from the Newhaven Marine ghost train video was this very typical journey :-

 

 

 

 

 

Kev.

[SHMD]

5 minutes ago, 62613 said:

SHMD will no doubt be aware of the group who have been trying to get a Stockport - Victoria service via Denton for a few years now; I believe the biggest problem is, as it has it has been since the 2nd generation DMUs arrived, insufficient stock to run a regular service over this route. There was a reduction of the number in the early 1990s

 

 

Yes indeed, and it is regularly discussed on the Flyer.

I wish them well but I just cant see it happening.

 

There are too many problems (with funding and will) for not much of a return. (IMHO)

The biggest problems, that I can see, are the complete lack of capacity at Victory Station - something the group was completely unaware of - and the lack of demand (but they say at the moment).

 

 

Kev.

[phil-b259]

6 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

The 0530 Saturdays Only Liverpool Street to Enfield train via (but not stopping at) Clapton and South Tottenham has hardly travelled via its booked route since 2016, although it has started doing so again in 2020 (and I think it still does even now). I don't think this can be blamed on the TOC since they, so far as I am aware, continued to run the train during this time, and presumably it is Network Rail who are to blame for a couple of curves in Tottenham not getting a passenger service all this time. I really cannot see that this service does anyone any good.

 

Its got NOTHING TO DO WITH NETWORK RAIL!

 

The infrastructure required for the service is still there and used by ECS moves.

 

The decision to not run a scheduled passenger service that way is the sole responsibility of the TOC concerned, in this case London Overground, who have been struggling with rolling stock availability ever since the West Anglia inner suburban services were split off the wider GA franchise.

 

As the service never called at South Tottenham plus LULs Victoria line provides an easy way of hopping between Severn Sisters and Tottenham Hale no travel opportunities are being denied (unlike say Denton station which has no other trains than its 'Parliamentary' service) by the Enfield to Stratford service not running. As such its quite possible London Overground might well seek to make its termination permanent when normality returns.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

47 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Its got NOTHING TO DO WITH NETWORK RAIL!

There's no need to shout.

 

The Branch Line Society's very informative PSUL pages (current version here: http://www.psul4all.free-online.co.uk/2020.html) have reported for the last few years that while the train is often cancelled (for which the TOC is presimably responsible), when it has run it has has been via Stoke Newington. How is the TOC responsible for the train being routed through Stoke Newington?

 

Here is the entry from the current PSUL page:

Quote

[note: this train last regularly ran via this route on 30 April 2016, being diverted via Stoke Newington or canTcelled on week-by-week basis (although it did run this way on 18 August 2018). It resumed running via South Tottenham from 14 December 2019 (except from 18 January until 15 February 2020 because of engineering work and the closure of the line between Woodgrange Park and South Tottenham)]

 

For what it's worth, the diversion via South Tottenham adds very little to the journey time, according to the public timetable at any rate. By omitting all stops between Liverpool Street and Seven Sisters except Hackney Downs, it keeps to the usual stopping train times, and it is five minutes slower than Greater Anglia's Hertford East service that also only stops at Hackney Downs, so it's hard to see what the TOC gains by running the train via Stoke Newington.

 

I entirely agree that no travel opportunities are denied by not running this service, and I said so in my earlier post. The train hasn't run from or via Stratford for years.

[62613]

1 hour ago, SHMD said:

 

Yes indeed, and it is regularly discussed on the Flyer.

I wish them well but I just cant see it happening.

 

There are too many problems (with funding and will) for not much of a return. (IMHO)

The biggest problems, that I can see, are the complete lack of capacity at Victory Station - something the group was completely unaware of - and the lack of demand (but they say at the moment).

 

 

Kev.

I would imagine that the single line sections wouldn't help, either. The line itself won't be closed, surely; it's quite a busy freight route.

 

[phil-b259]

6 minutes ago, Jeremy C said:

There's no need to shout.

 

The Branch Line Society's very informative PSUL pages (current version here: http://www.psul4all.free-online.co.uk/2020.html) have reported for the last few years that while the train is often cancelled (for which the TOC is presimably responsible), when it has run it has has been via Stoke Newington. How is the TOC responsible for the train being routed through Stoke Newington?

 

Here is the entry from the current PSUL page:

 

For what it's worth, the diversion via South Tottenham adds very little to the journey time, according to the public timetable at any rate. By omitting all stops between Liverpool Street and Seven Sisters except Hackney Downs, it keeps to the usual stopping train times, and it is five minutes slower than Greater Anglia's Hertford East service that also only stops at Hackney Downs, so it's hard to see what the TOC gains by running the train via Stoke Newington.

 

I entirely agree that no travel opportunities are denied by not running this service, and I said so in my earlier post. The train hasn't run from or via Stratford for years.

 

The only time Network Rail would 'divert' a train from its booked route (baring an infrastructure failure) is where is has specifically been requested by the TOCs concerned. You only have to spend a few hours in a signal box to realise that there is a steady stream of alterations coming in from the TOCs telling signallers that trains are to be cancelled, turned short, skip stations, be held to await crew, diverted to an alternate destination etc....

 

As such its entirely possible for the TOC to ring Network Rail up and request it be diverted via Stoke Newington whenever they feel like it - and following such a request that is precisely what will happen!

 

Hence my irritation at your earlier comments.

 

All Network rail does is provide the infrastructure the trains run on and agree the timetables with operators twice a year* Everything else relating to service operation (baring infrastructure failures or infrastructure being unavailable due to engineering work) is in the hands of the TOCs

 

In the case with this particular service however, there was of course several lengthy blockades during the Gospel Oak - Barking upgrade where the infrastructure through South Tottenham was no available. At such times the usual procedures for service suspension due to engineering works would have been followed (i.e. diversion by an alternative route). Now it may be that the TOC has decided to put the service on a permanent divert rather than have intermittent operation - but the fact remains that is the decision of the TOC

[caradoc]

15 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

How is the TOC responsible for the train being routed through Stoke Newington?

 

With only the one (passenger) train booked over the route (not sure whether ECS goes that way too ?) Traincrew route knowledge will be difficult to retain. A similar example from my own experience in Scotland is the electrified connection between Sunnyside Jc (Coatbridge) and Whifflet South Jc; For some years an evening ECS from Yoker to Motherwell was booked this way, purely to retain route knowledge, but more often than not it was diverted via Glasgow Central Low Level and the WCML due to..... lack of route knowledge !

 

I would therefore suggest that reason for running the service mentioned via Stoke Newington is simply that the rostered Driver does not sign the route.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Going back to the original question, the 3 per day direct Sheffield/Pontefract Baghill/York services are currently missing from the timetable, while on the Sheffield-Worksop-Retford axis, the stoppers to Gainsborough Central are not running (the Lincoln Central services are picking up the stops) and the Sats-only Sheffield/Brigg/Cleethorpes are also missing.

I think Northern have been hard hit by staff shortages/training backlogs, and not just in Yorkshire.

[62613]

13 minutes ago, eastwestdivide said:

Going back to the original question, the 3 per day direct Sheffield/Pontefract Baghill/York services are currently missing from the timetable, while on the Sheffield-Worksop-Retford axis, the stoppers to Gainsborough Central are not running (the Lincoln Central services are picking up the stops) and the Sats-only Sheffield/Brigg/Cleethorpes are also missing.

I think Northern have been hard hit by staff shortages/training backlogs, and not just in Yorkshire.

That's the reason they are giving for the suspension of the Piccadilly - Rose Hill Marple service, until December.

 

[SHMD]

2 hours ago, 62613 said:

That's the reason they are giving for the suspension of the Piccadilly - Rose Hill Marple service, until December.

 

 

..and that's not even a Parliamentary!

I do get the feeling, (more and more), that railways don't like to run railways!

 

Just one manager (under pressure) in charge of one line with one stock choice and nothing to do with anything else railway related - infrastructure, training, renewal, maintenance, integration, contingency, flexibility, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

Just my own little bit and pay no attention to the bigger picture.

Farm everything else out and sod the passengers/service!

Anything goes wrong, then cancelling is the, first and usually, the only choice.

 

 

Kev.

 

[Wheatley]

5 hours ago, eastwestdivide said:

the stoppers to Gainsborough Central are not running (the Lincoln Central services are picking up the stops)

The stoppers only go to Gainsborough to cross over and reverse for timing reasons, there aren't enough passengers yet to justify running them. Numbers are picking up but off peak and to/from leisure destinations. All the strengthening last week was Fylde and Wolds Coast. 

 

On train (specifically in-cab) training can't be carried out at 2m distance so was suspended until that was relaxed just like haircuts and leg waxing were. They aren't doing it just to annoy people.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Wheatley

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

There is at least one previously regular line that hasn't run since mid March and maybe never will again- Watford Junction to St Albans Abbey. It seems suspect to me that they used to have to go through the faff of running at least one train a week on lines previously termed "parliamentary" but have used the crisis to bring about closures that the franchises would love to bring in without any undue fuss.

 

Talking of long periods without a service, Reedham to Yarmouth went for around two years with no trains as Network Rail and Abellio Greater Anglia illegally colluded to close the line by default and leave one station with no service (bus replacement not possible). Don't know what happened to force the change back to running trains but it appears they have reinstated a handful since May 2020.

 

[65179]

On 09/08/2020 at 14:26, SHMD said:

The LNWR line from Leeds to Crewe was a very important route. So much so that from Hudderesfield - Stalybridge - Denton - Stockport portion was quadruple tracked.

 

When the Trans Pennine services were cut back from loco+seven bogies to a 2-car 158 (late 80s early 90s?), stopping hourly at Stalybridge, they routed the 158s via Piccadilly to :-

A/ reduce Manchester Victoria's through-services to allow the sale and development of %50 of its' through lines, and,

B/ to lose the Stockport Flyer and reduce the route to virtually a single line with passing places.

(The 158 were completely unsuitable for this change and a lot of Stalybridge folk stopped using the Station.)

 

In the 70s, the train from Stockport would wait just outside the Station until the Newcastle train had come to a halt on the then Platform 1. The Stockport Flyer would then come right up behind it and the passengers would have a short walk, past the BG and 1st class carriages, to get on. Within a few minutes the Liverpool bound service would pull into the then Platform 2 with the Stockport, and beyond, passengers alighting. The Liverpool train would then leave and the Stockport FLyer would then "crossover" to Platform 2 to pick up the Stockport bound passengers. This arrangement meant there was no changing platforms with bridges, ramp or steps and was most convenient.

(Blagging a ride from Platform 1 to Platform 2 was a favourite lunchtime activity of the local school chilkdren          )

The Stockport Flyer was then a 2 car DMU but later they knocked a carriage off (a very common practice around Manchester then) and it became one of those single car units, 550xx.) These 550xx's were very busy during rush-hour and you were luck to get a set!

 

North Trans-Pennine services moved from Victoria to Piccadilly from the the May 1989 timetable following the construction of the Windsor Link. 158s replaced the loco- hauled services in Jan 1991. 

 

I've not done Stockport-Stalybridge since 1987/8 when the flyer was a Class 104!

 

Simon

[daveyb]

7 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

There is at least one previously regular line that hasn't run since mid March and maybe never will again- Watford Junction to St Albans Abbey. It seems suspect to me that they used to have to go through the faff of running at least one train a week on lines previously termed "parliamentary" but have used the crisis to bring about closures that the franchises would love to bring in without any undue fuss.

 

I've not lived in Herts for some time but the Watford Junction to St.Albans Abbey was always a useful and even busy train at rush hours. When did it drop to parliamentary frequency? The talk of closure was lifted in the 80/90s when it was electrified. They are always talking about a light rail extension option into the town centres but that's never happening soon!