Dublo and Tri-ang 00 and TT comparisons

[Silverfox17]

Unfortunately I don't have every type of items made but try to give as much information, that I hope is correct but can make mistakes, with the photos of the models I do have. 

 

Garry 

[Silverfox17]

This is the bogie brick wagon, it was never made in TT gauge which I think was a mistake as it is a nice looking vehicle.

The Hornby Dublo model was always made in three pieces of tinplate using tab and slot assembly on a diecast underframe, it was never produced in plastic when Dublo started the SD range.  Originally it had metal wheels for 3-rail only but later nylon for both 2 and 3-rail running.  The couplings were metal followed by nylon.  At one time the underframe was brown in colour. 

 

The Tri-ang one was plastic from day one as was everything they did, possibly with different shades of brown, but has had a few different bogie changes from diecast to plastic with split axles to pin points.  On mine I have no idea if the brake levers were black and someone has scrapped the paint off to show the brown though or produced this way.

 

Garry

Edited October 9, 2020 by Silverfox17

[Il Grifone]

16 hours ago, Silverfox17 said:

The bogie well wagon.  This was made in both 00 and TT by Tri-ang and also by Hornby Dublo. 

The Dublo one was always a die cast model and quite short, in fact the TT version was longer which leads me to think the Dublo was based on a different style, being short was possibly in keeping with the coaches and other bogie wagons.  Like the brick wagon it had metal wheels followed by nylon as were the couplings.

 

The Tri-ang 00 version was more to scale length (in my opinion) and also went from a diecast bogie to a plastic one.  This model, like Josephs coat, was produced in many colours, maybe more than what I have, I assume the orange was to go with the Transcontinental series?  This 00 model seemed strange having the couplings set further out from the buffer beam than normal giving an even wider gap between vehicles, possibly due to fitting a coupling to the casting although this was managed in TT?  The TT version was a reasonable scale length as well and usually grey (maybe two different shades) but there were some green ones made which are quite rare.

 

Garry

 

They are different wagons. The Dublo one is a WELTROL MV and while a bit coarse detail wise is quite close to prototype. It originally had diamond frame bogies, later replaced with the correct plate type, correctly less the lightening holes as it is a heavy duty wagon. The dimples* in the top should actually be cutouts I gather.

I believe Tri-ang's model is based on an LMS/LNER design, but have never found an exact match. (I'm not saying there isn't one, just that I've never found it.)

 

* For want of a better word.

 

https://www.svrwiki.com/BR_901010_Weltrol_MV

[Il Grifone]

6 hours ago, Silverfox17 said:

This is the bogie brick wagon, it was never made in TT gauge which I think was a mistake as it is a nice looking vehicle.

The Hornby Dublo model was always made in three pieces of tinplate using tab and slot assembly on a diecast underframe, it was never produced in plastic when Dublo started the SD range.  Originally it had metal wheels for 3-rail only but later nylon for both 2 and 3-rail running.  The couplings were metal followed by nylon.  At one time the underframe was brown in colour. 

 

The Tri-ang one was plastic from day one as was everything they did, possibly with different shades of brown, but has had a few different bogie changes from diecast to plastic with split axles to pin points.  On mine I have no idea if the brake levers were black and someone has scrapped the paint off to show the brown though or produced this way.

 

Garry

 

Here there is no comparison; Tri-ang wins hands down! Why they they put the correct markings though? "RETURN TO DEPOT" is meaningless.

There are two versions of the Dublo one - LNER livery and BR. Hybrids exist of BR body on brown LNER chassis. AFAIK the Tri-ang chassis is always all black with both levers complete though they are easily broken. There is a fair amount of underfloor detail not modelled. There are also 'LONDON BRICK' fake P.O. livery and plain starter set wagons.

This must be one of the most modelled wagons. Despite the limited range of the prototype (Fletton to London), everyone seems to have had one in their range.

There were only 50 real ones, 25 GNR and 25 LNER (slight detail differences).

 

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Il Grifone
Goobledegook

[Il Grifone]

28 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

Sorry double posting. I don't seem to be able to delete this post.

 

To not waste it I'll stick this link about brick wagons here!

 

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3651

Edited October 9, 2020 by Il Grifone

[Silverfox17]

The EMU was made in 00 by both Tri-ang and Hornby Dublo.  Both are in Southern livery although the Dublo one I am led to believe was a midland model which should have M prefix and I am led to believe was still BR green and not maroon.  Both came in sets of two coaches but I do not have either set for any comparison, just individual coaches.  The Dublo model was produced in both 2 and 3-rail but only the 2-rail units were in sets.  When it was first designed the artwork showed a plain green end and just 200 models were made before Dublo stopped production saying these were not to be sold but some did get out and I only know of two in existence, mine and well known reputable Dublo collector, who thought he had the only one until he saw mine.  Dublo had stopped production as small yellow panels were introduced by BR so production was centred around modifying the moulds for these and quite a few got out without painting but the difference is the initial 200 did not have the moulding marks for the yellow, the others do, so easy to spot an unpainted with a visible moulded line one from the standard painted production ones.  The 3-rail power cars at one time had a plain green trailing end fitted instead of the usual black ones.  Dublo EMU bodies and chassis’s were of tinplate construction with plastic ends and roof and used the Ringfield motor bogie. The trailer used a standard coach underframe with non compensated bogies but had two plastic clips fitted as dummy pick-up shoes.

 

The Tri-ang unit came out around 1957 and over time had a different coloured plastic used, mine here is the later version.  This model had a working light behind the V on the driving coach only.  The diecast motor bogie was different to the DMU and Blue Pullman as it had a collector shoe cast into it. Most trailing units had a plastic bogie that was also moulded with a collector shoe although very early ones had a plain coach bogie fitted.  As is usual with Tri-ang it is all plastic for the body and underfame parts.  The Tri-ang unit seen here is actually two trailing cars which were matching in colour and condition and being in very good condition I swapped a motor bogie from an older green model.  Who knows one day I may get another older matching trailer to make a Dummy pair to attach to this.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Silverfox17

[D9020 Nimbus]

ISTR the Dublo Model was based on the LMR units that became class 501. However, I think the real LMR units were green, not maroon.

Edited October 16, 2020 by D9020 Nimbus
Corrected auto-correct!

[BernardTPM]

The MU cables are correctly modelled for the LMR units too (Quite a bit different to the BR(SR) arrangement) but they did miss off the destination screen above the headcode window and the bars on the door windows. Still it is a pretty good effort.

Tri-ang's cab isn't bad, very like that on early 3-SUB and 4-LAV units, but the compartments are just their standard ones which, if anything, have a bit of a GWR vibe to them and very much First Class spacing.

 

The only maroon EMUs were the ER Clacton sets (Class 309) which have never been done R-T-R.

[D9020 Nimbus]

It often surprises me how the Triang TT models were often of different prototypes than OO models. They did a standard 3MT in OO, but a GW "large Prairie" in TT (they didn't do this for themselves in OO till this year). They did the 104 DMU in TT but not in OO—even today—though they eventually did the somewhat similar 110 in OO.

 

I know there was no CAD in those days, but even so…

[Silverfox17]

53 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

It often surprises me how the Triang TT models were often of different prototypes than OO models. They did a standard 3MT in OO, but a GW "large Prairie" in TT (they didn't do this for themselves in OO till this year). They did the 104 DMU in TT but not in OO—even today—though they eventually did the somewhat similar 110 in OO.

 

I know there was no CAD in those days, but even so…

There were actually more than half the same in Tri-ang's days, Jinty, A1A, M/N v B of B (that is they were both Spam Cans), 08 and Britannia. That is 5 of the 8 TT locos made that were similar to the 00 counterparts. Two of them, A1A and M/N appeared before the 00 versions. I think the Britannia was about the same. 

 

Garry 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Silverfox17

[andyman7]

7 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

ISTR the Dublo Model was based on the LMR units that became class 501. However, I think the real LMR units were green, not maroon.

Yes, they were based on the Class 501s, which were originally delivered in plain MU green before gaining loco (Brunswick) green with straw lining, then all over blue and finally blue/grey. The contraction in North London LIne/Euston-Watford service frequencies and train lengths from the late 60s meant that quite a few units were withdrawn early, the motor coaches being converted to Battery Electric locos and the remaining vehicles being stored spare or used for a variety of departmental activities. The Dublo cab end misses out the destination box but is otherwise a very good representation of the Class 501 end - it differs from the standard SR design in having bus bar jumper cables for traction current as well as the MU cables, a small recess in the cab front where the main MU jumper socket is located, and a separate tail light just below, all faithfully included on the Dublo model.

Edited October 16, 2020 by andyman7

[Il Grifone]

There were two 'fashions' in R-T-R in the late '50s, following laments in the model press about lack of models. First GWR, I think the HD Castle was the first, if you ignore the rather crude Gaiety pannier. The Tri-ang TT version appeared about the same time, closely followed by the Prairie and Trix's 56xx a year or two later. This inevitably produced a storm of protest from the Southern camp. and we were offered Tri-ang's Utility Van*, their rather excellent L1 and less good BoB (excellent until you see it in profile), Trix's Schools* and Dublo's R1, rebuilt WC and EMU, which came as Southern despite its length being near correct for the Watford units (the Southern units were built on the 64' underframe and the Watford units on the 57' as were the non-corridor coaches. Maroon coaches came in both lengths, green only 64'. The corridor coaches were all 64' except for the full brake.)

 

*This, like the EMU, appeared rather before the campaign really started IIRC

** The less said about this horror the better, though an example is very rare/collectable/expensive (Trix 4-4-0s were always expensive and always bore little resemblance to their prototype!).

[Silverfox17]

1 hour ago, Il Grifone said:

The Tri-ang TT version appeared about the same time, closely followed by the Prairie

Tri-ang never made a TT pannier David, it came in kit form only from Eames (57xx), Gem (57xx), K's (97xx) and Bec (94xx) which are not intended for this thread.  My posts are about the comparisons of the same item like class of loco (Jinty v Jinty or 08 v 08), same coach/wagon (brick wagon v brick wagon), EMU v EMU, DMU v DMU, Pullman set v Pullman set etc within reason, not really about how correct they were scale wise.

 

Garry

Edited October 17, 2020 by Silverfox17

[Il Grifone]

49 minutes ago, Silverfox17 said:

Tri-ang never made a TT pannier David, it came in kit form only from Eames (57xx), Gem (57xx), K's (97xx) and Bec (94xx) which are not intended for this thread.  My posts are about the comparisons of the same item like class of loco (Jinty v Jinty or 08 v 08), same coach/wagon (brick wagon v brick wagon), EMU v EMU, DMU v DMU, Pullman set v Pullman set etc within reason, not really about how correct they were scale wise.

 

Garry

 

Hi Garry,

I added the Gaiety bit afterwards trying to be complete (and then forgot the Farish 'KIng'!). The "Tri-ang version" was intended to refer to the Castle. I would have thought accuracy to scale a relevant comparison however.

David

[Silverfox17]

David, I don't see the relevance of mentioning a King, Schools, 56xx, L1 as there was nothing made to compare them with in a comparison thread.  Hornby and Bachmann made 3 of them in later years but that is outside the thread of Dublo v Tri-ang. I can accept Trix as they did the AL1 (which I put on earlier) and Britannia which was made in 00 by Trix and Tri-ang along with the TT version by Tri-ang. The Gaiety pannier can come in to it IF it is fitted to both a Tri-ang and a Dublo chassis which I think I have and when I find them I can put a photo on for comparision but as a loco class it was on its own as Tri-ang brought theirs out under the Hornby label. 

 

Garry 

[David_Belcher]

On 17/10/2020 at 18:03, Il Grifone said:

There were two 'fashions' in R-T-R in the late '50s, following laments in the model press about lack of models. First GWR, I think the HD Castle was the first, if you ignore the rather crude Gaiety pannier. The Tri-ang TT version appeared about the same time, closely followed by the Prairie and Trix's 56xx a year or two later. This inevitably produced a storm of protest from the Southern camp. and we were offered Tri-ang's Utility Van*, their rather excellent L1 and less good BoB (excellent until you see it in profile), Trix's Schools* and Dublo's R1, rebuilt WC and EMU, which came as Southern despite its length being near correct for the Watford units (the Southern units were built on the 64' underframe and the Watford units on the 57' as were the non-corridor coaches. Maroon coaches came in both lengths, green only 64'. The corridor coaches were all 64' except for the full brake.)

 

*This, like the EMU, appeared rather before the campaign really started IIRC

** The less said about this horror the better, though an example is very rare/collectable/expensive (Trix 4-4-0s were always expensive and always bore little resemblance to their prototype!).

Farish were ahead of the curve here IIRC, the Large Prairie (the only GF model to be resurrected as they moved into the all-plastic rolling stock era), MN and King all being early 50s IIRC - their 94xx came later, early 60s probably?

 

David

[Silverfox17]

I do not have the GF Prairie so cannot do a comparison with the TT one.  I will do the M/N sometime soon but as Tri-ang (in either TT or 00) or Dublo never made a King or Pannier they are not relevant.

 

Garry 

[Silverfox17]

On 09/10/2020 at 09:43, BernardTPM said:

Are you sure about the 'Mk.1' bogies? I thought they all had DMU bogies, the pattern of which was later stretched to make a 'Pullman' bogie when the scale length Pullman appeared in 1974. Your photo shows the early open axlebox DMU bogies.

The power bogie was basically the older EMU bogie minus the shoebeams, also used under their Blue Pullman motor coach.

Here is a 2 car set I have just bought and shows the 3 trailing bogies are all Mk1's Bernard.

 

The power car also has the remains of the old cycling lion totem as opposed to the far more common later ferret and dartboard ones.  I will have to put a new one on though.

 

Garry

[BernardTPM]

That show they must have used at least four types of unpowered bogies under those models over its lifespan: the old open axlebox BR1, the open axlebox DMU bogie, the closed axlebox DMU bogie and finally the 'Pullman' stretched DMU bogie for the late green Hornby branded ones. The only question mark is where there any open axlebox DMU bogies with the Mk.2 couplings? I suspect not.

[andyman7]

45 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

That show they must have used at least four types of unpowered bogies under those models over its lifespan: the old open axlebox BR1, the open axlebox DMU bogie, the closed axlebox DMU bogie and finally the 'Pullman' stretched DMU bogie for the late green Hornby branded ones. The only question mark is where there any open axlebox DMU bogies with the Mk.2 couplings? I suspect not.

I've never seen a version with DMU style bogies and Mk2 couplings in 35 years of handling these

[Silverfox17]

This shows both the Tri-ang and Dublo 0-6-0 chassis's fitted to the Gaiety pannier body.  This body did accept both chassis's with just a slight mod but the Dublo one had the centre wheels out of alignment to the splashers due to it not being equidistant spacing.  Both locos look good and run well with a heavy body on top.  Both bodies have slight variations.

 

I am not looking at any accuracy issues here, this is not about that, just how they both compared on the different chassis's.

 

Garry

[DCB]

Deleted

Edited December 4, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[Silverfox17]

1 hour ago, DavidCBroad said:

Darned awkward, the Triang can be redrilled with great difficulty to bring the front axle back, but the new axle hole breaks into the old one. 

That would not be a good idea as the casting was made to the Tri-ang centres so the front wheel would then be misaligned. 

 

As mentioned this is not about accuracy but just about comparisons. 

 

Garry 

[DCB]

On 04/12/2020 at 22:40, Silverfox17 said:

That would not be a good idea as the casting was made to the Tri-ang centres so the front wheel would then be misaligned. 

 

As mentioned this is not about accuracy but just about comparisons. 

 

Garry 

The Gaiety Body was made to fit the Gaiety chassis.  The Gaiety wheelbase is 29mm + 33mm,  bang on for a 57XX, It puts the Triang front wheel 3mm too far forward,  I just measured the rods from my old Gaiety chassis. Its a very odd spur gear device which is held in by screw buffers and usually found fitted backwards with the larger gap between front and centre wheels. I never had the motor and sold the chassis years ago but 2 wheels and a rod live on in my scrap box.   Meanwhile two survive on H/D chassis as Hidden siding pilots.  One day I'll change the green one and the 97X to black livery. 97XX is recent find/work in progress Its an odd device the Gaiety, the body is a good likeness for  those double framed panniers which survived into the 1930s but its ability to pull a 24 H/D wagons, more than a Hornby 9F or 72XX which I value . 

 

  

Edited December 6, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[Il Grifone]

The Gaiety pannier is a strange beast, especially with it's weird safety valve casing' It claims to be a 57xx (number 5700 usually always?), but has features of the 2721 class (parallel chimney and whistle on the cab roof for a start). The chassis is held on by the buffers, so easy to get the wrong way round. It is also rather  crude and prone to wearing out.