Covid / Experts / Pressure groups

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

I am not ‘prepared’ for anything as you put it - but ultimately there is no solution that is able to do everything people want.

 

Every action has consequences,  however I do believe in the principle that society owes a duty to protect its most vulnerable members.

 

As such the the selection of which measures the Goverment chooses to follow need to pay particular attention to the ‘have nots’ of the country as it were who are least able to whether the storm, and on balance I believe that trying to keep schools open (as opposed to pubs or the hospitality sector) is the right thing to do.

 

I agree the have nots have the least ability to weather the storm, I also agree some of the hospitality sector does also spread the virus

 

So its right to send the have nots children to school to get infected then come home and infect older generations (the haves do have the ability to keep their children away from their older generations)

 

Then close down the businesses that are not the super spreading businesses in hospitality so the have nots loose their income. Certainly places where large (or small numbers ) mingle and mix uncontrollably should close. But why shut down businesses that take their customer safety very seriously. I would be so much safer going into a local restaurant than either going into a classroom or get on a bus with school children.

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

The early data did back up this stance - but with the caveat that the UK Governments testing regime was (and remains) woeful compared to the likes of Germany.

 

Things have however moved on and we also have considerable evidence of just how significantly shutting schools in March has affected children’s learning and social life.

 

As such even if the data does now indicate schools are a significant factor in spreading Covid it does not automatically mean another extended school closure is a good idea.

 

Phil

 

You are quite correct that our testing WAS awful, as was the testing in most countries, but from a standing start we certainly are testing more people than any other country in Europe. Germany is now suffering a very much higher death rate now, seem to remember the BBC quoting a daily rate of over 600 which was higher than the UK's. In comparison with Germany its not woeful now, forget politics, your statement is a disservice to so many in the health service have knocked down mountains to get where we are now, which is one of the better examples in Europe

 

Lockdown not only affected schools, businesses as well have been devastated, and everybody's social life has been disrupted, had everybody complied with the lockdown rules we as a country would have had the virus under control, its people who spread it and its those who have flouted the rules which in the main have continued the epidemic. Sadly its proven the main culprits are younger people. Had everyone been adhering to the rules everyone's social lives would be better quicker

 

I clearly disagree with your view schools closing, as they are self closing themselves through lack of control of the students. They should have had a better plan to segregate children arriving and leaving

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

So you close schools, where are working parents going to turn for childcare during work hours?

 

Grandparents. 
 

the precise people you say need to be protected from children varying the virus.

 

kids will still mix, the virus will still spread but we will have a whole generation with poorer skills and a much poorer future.

 

This is a totally different story. When my daughter was born my wife gave up work, we were extremely poor for quite a long time, gradually my wife went back into the work force part time initially and not into full time till she was well into secondary school. We just about kept paying the mortgage during that time and had few luxuries. We kept at one child as this was all we could afford and hand none of the state benefits available to parents today. 

 

My parents were just the same with us, they did the best they could with what they had

 

I accept today its different, but basically because we have become consumers of things that we don't need. 

 

[APOLLO]

My twin girls started Uni back in Sept 2019, one at Lancaster (Physics) and the other at Liverpool (Biology). The Liverpool one commutes daily, the other stays in Lancaster.

 

At the end of March both were sent home permanently. No online courses then as this epidemic came so fast. One good thing was that Lancaster later reimbursed the living in fees for those living in halls of residence on site (The other one saved her train fare !!).

 

Both Universities did a lot to get studies on line for the new academic year starting Sept. As my Lancaster daughter had signed a lease for a house in town with three other girls in December 2019 they all went there in September (had to - could not cancel). All stayed in isolation and all studying (different subjects) on line with lots of help etc. The Liverpool one stayed at home studying on line, again no real problems, both just got on with it.

 

I personally think some sort of rebate (on the £9000 / year tuition fee) is due. They are NOT getting what they signed up for (Laboratory work, important in science subjects, etc). Student accommodation lease agreements also need looking into. The one year agreement for the Lancaster house is inflexible - it has to be paid covid or not, though I agree the University can do nothing here. Many thousands of students are in the same situation.

 

Lastly I must state that both the above Universities have done a very good job to get on line tuition up and running in a very short time. Not perfect or ideal but everyone seems to be doing there best and being responsible, students (most of them) and all.

 

Brit15

Edited December 17, 2020 by APOLLO
typos

[hayfield]

54 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

John,

Once various pressure groups demanded that things be opened up schools became an insignificant area. As a cyclist I was disgusted by the attitude of the cycling organizations to want to start competitive events again.  A quick look at any rugby club training ground will soon show you how kids are mixing in close contact. At least the schools have some rules on social distancing and direct contact.

My daughter gave up a very well paid job as she wanted to go into teaching. She was frustrated when the school was shut. It took three weeks to get the children back to any where near normal behaviour when they did go back. She does not want to go through that again.

By contrast teachers at a local private school were put under great pressure to carry on and it was made very clear that their job depended on keeping the parents happy. No fees = no job.

As for care homes. I know one that is Covid free and has first class procedures in place. However it costs a small fortune do be able to do this. There are many that simply do not have the funds. Many also had great problems in sourcing PPE.

Bernard

 

Bernard

 

My wife worked in a private school so I understand the pressures. I get the impression care home owners want their cake and eat it, as you say 50% had it under control, 

 

Children do and will bounce back, part of the problems is not the pandemic but the way they are brought up now. My parents I believe did a much better job at preparing me for life than many do now and they were poor. Likewise my daughter has excelled at her job despite me, down to the wife and the grandparents (I was too busy working). In the past people had less but were more resilient. My wife's grandfather cycled from Suffolk to West Hertfordshire to find work, no social services in those days, no work no money !!!

 

Things are different now, but we must expect to do more for ourselves 

[phil-b259]

11 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 Sadly its proven the main culprits are younger people. Had everyone been adhering to the rules everyone's social lives would be better quicker

 

 

 

This is one of the biggest myths going! Those pictures of Bournemouth beach back in the summer were not totally filled with young children or teenagers - it was mostly ADULTS who should have known better.

 

Just a few weeks ago when shops re-opened there were plenty of examples of a lack of social distancing as ADULTS flocked to stores to start Christmas shopping.

 

Meanwhile, throughout this year I have many colleagues only too happy to play fast and lose with the rules they perceive as getting in the way of life.

 

Yes children and teenagers are not adhering to social distancing rules - but at least they have the defence of imaturity (which does I grant reduce with age) unlike the adult population who have no excuse.

 

Thus pinning the blame for an increase in Covid on schools and demanding they shut on account of youth is misguided and frankly rather insulting when I see no such outcry over Adults whose behaviour is just as bad even though they should be setting an example!

[hayfield]

Just now, phil-b259 said:

 

This is one of the biggest myths going! Those pictures of Bournemouth beach back in the summer were not totally filled with young children or teenagers - it was mostly ADULTS who should have known better.

 

Just a few weeks ago when shops re-opened there were plenty of examples of a lack of social distancing as ADULTS flocked to stores to start Christmas shopping.

 

Meanwhile, throughout this year I have many colleagues only too happy to play fast and lose with the rules they perceive as getting in the way of life.

 

Yes children and teenagers are not adhering to social distancing rules - but at least they have the defence of imaturity (which does I grant reduce with age) unlike the adult population who have no excuse.

 

Thus pinning the blame for an increase in Covid on schools and demanding they shut on account of youth is misguided and frankly rather insulting when I see no such outcry over Adults whose behaviour is just as bad even though they should be setting an example!

 

Look at the pictures of parties, street gatherings and parties, uni parties,  raves etc mostly all young people. Just look at the weekend nights with throngs of drunk youngsters in masses in the streets. The testing regime is showing the latest spike is with younger people, all of these are facts not myths

 

I do accept there are many older people who also flout the rules, also many young people are adhering to the rules, but this spike according to the data has been led by the younger generation

 

As for children claiming immaturity as a defence, I get fed up with this, I was taught right from wrong which I passed on to my daughter. Yes I did a few stupid things like most folk, but I knew where the line was drawn 

[phil-b259]

11 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

This is a totally different story. When my daughter was born my wife gave up work, we were extremely poor for quite a long time, gradually my wife went back into the work force part time initially and not into full time till she was well into secondary school. We just about kept paying the mortgage during that time and had few luxuries. We kept at one child as this was all we could afford and hand none of the state benefits available to parents today. 

 

My parents were just the same with us, they did the best they could with what they had

 

I accept today its different, but basically because we have become consumers of things that we don't need. 

 

 

That is a very arrogant analysis of life today - Life has changed considerably since the 1950s and its not all about wanting 'things we do not need' as you put it.

 

Its a fact that to get on the housing ladder in many places today many couples NEED to have both in work to provide enough income to get a mortgage, or indeed pay private rents. Meanwhile the radical changes in employment patterns over the past decades mean for many travel costs (season tickets, running a car) have skyrocketed. The increased casualisation of the workforce has also had an effect - the rise in short term contracts over salaried employment adds further pressure to maximise income while you can. We have also seen a big increase in single parent families who have been told by Governments over recent decades that it is their duty to find work and benefits cut if they don't!

[phil-b259]

2 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Look at the pictures of parties, street gatherings and parties, uni parties,  raves etc mostly all young people. Just look at the weekend nights with throngs of drunk youngsters in masses in the streets. The testing regime is showing the latest spike is with younger people, all of these are facts not myths

 

I do accept there are many older people who also flout the rules, also many young people are adhering to the rules, but this spike according to the data has been led by the younger generation

 

As for children claiming immaturity as a defence, I get fed up with this, I was taught right from wrong which I passed on to my daughter. Yes I did a few stupid things like most folk, but I knew where the line was drawn 

 

Young people will copy ADULTS. If I were younger and saw all those Adults ignoring the rules over the Summer then I would be more inclined to break the rules too!

 

You say you taught your daughter right from wrong - yet seem to think that same principle can be abandoned with the wider community.

 

The old saying 'you reap what you sow' is very relevant here - when you have various Politicians, business leaders and other adults demanding a relaxation of rules and threatening to defeat Government restrictions and news images of other adults disregarding social distancing rules to go shopping what sort of message does that send out?

 

The brutal truth is the UK population as a whole really haven't grasped how serious this is - something the Government knew would happen from the off and hence why the Lockdowns were so slow in coming. The unhealthy obsession with the importance of the individual by certain political ideologies has made it much harder to fight the virus as people continue to insist they should be exempt from restrictions.

 

The brutal truth is that closing schools costs society dear and should be very much a 'last resort' measure. As such it should only be contemplated alongside a more general lockdown of non essential retail and hospitality sectors not as a stand alone response.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

Phil

 

You are quite correct that our testing WAS awful, as was the testing in most countries, but from a standing start we certainly are testing more people than any other country in Europe. Germany is now suffering a very much higher death rate now, seem to remember the BBC quoting a daily rate of over 600 which was higher than the UK's. In comparison with Germany its not woeful now, forget politics, your statement is a disservice to so many in the health service have knocked down mountains to get where we are now, which is one of the better examples in Europe

 

Lockdown not only affected schools, businesses as well have been devastated, and everybody's social life has been disrupted, had everybody complied with the lockdown rules we as a country would have had the virus under control, its people who spread it and its those who have flouted the rules which in the main have continued the epidemic. Sadly its proven the main culprits are younger people. Had everyone been adhering to the rules everyone's social lives would be better quicker

 

I clearly disagree with your view schools closing, as they are self closing themselves through lack of control of the students. They should have had a better plan to segregate children arriving and leaving

 

Its not knocking the health service - Its knocking the 'outsourcing specialists' the Government gave contracts to in spite of the rather poor record such firms have had in the past.

 

The NHS might well be doing a much better job but most don't believe it because of the cack handed approach in the first 6 months caused a massive loss of confidence in the system.

 

I also note a recent BBC report on how an awful lot of those contacted by 'track and trace' regard it as a thundering nuisance and have no intention of self isolating. Again an unfortunate side effect of the 'me first' ethos so prevalent in the UK population. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-55280321

Edited December 17, 2020 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

I agree the have nots have the least ability to weather the storm, I also agree some of the hospitality sector does also spread the virus

 

So its right to send the have nots children to school to get infected then come home and infect older generations (the haves do have the ability to keep their children away from their older generations)

 

Then close down the businesses that are not the super spreading businesses in hospitality so the have nots loose their income. Certainly places where large (or small numbers ) mingle and mix uncontrollably should close. But why shut down businesses that take their customer safety very seriously. I would be so much safer going into a local restaurant than either going into a classroom or get on a bus with school children.

 

Schools 'only reflecting virus levels in community'

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55340597

[hayfield]

Sorry if I have given you the impression of abandoning the rules for the wider community, quite the opposite. Young or old I would take the same appropriate action. As for places which must by law abide with health and safety laws I would go much further, these wedding venues restaurants, and bars where they gather to either drink or smoke pipes, gyms social and religious places, must comply with the rules and laws

 

I agree every business, social/religious organisations and all other areas whether it be care homes or schools should be dealt with appropriately and be expected to comply  

 

Now where would I be safest, my local gastro pup having a meal or the local junior school or the local senior school ? Now I would not be in any, but the facts are the first one has been forced to close because it may infect me, the second two have been forced to close as they are hot beds of infection

 

Had all 3 been open and I was told I had to go to one of them, I don't need a degree to know which is the safest

 

Certainly where I live opening schools is now costing dear. Children are far more resilient than we give them credit for. And all too often peoples own self imposed problems are blamed on poor schooling. Its never the persons own fault always someone else's fault.  

 

The planning behind opening of both universities and schools were flawed, yes they should have been opened providing a robust plan was in place, but it was not a robust plan 

[hayfield]

23 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Schools 'only reflecting virus levels in community'

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55340597

 

Sorry but this totally conflicts with reports on BBC local radio quoting local health officials. 100 schools out of thousands and were any of these in the most affected areas. I would rather listen to the local public health officials who are using actual data

[Vistisen]

I would not wish to be a politician at the moment, it really seems to be dammed if you do, dammed if you don’t.  I suspect that the truth is that there is no right approach, what ever you do will have side effects that depending on your viewpoint mean that something else should have been done.

One thing I am sure of is that it will take years for all the consequences to appear. Here in Denmark, we had a month-long lockout of primary and secondary school teachers as part of education reform conflict in 2013. One of the side effects of this is obvious now, but came as a real surprise was a rise in hash usage by adults now in their 20’s. They got introduced to it because of not being in school for about 6 weeks meant that they were hanging around in groups, which local pushers used to their advantage.

I hope that when Corona is over, that it is possible to have a thorough ‘lessons learned’ process that does not turn into a blame game. I am pretty sure that no decision maker really wanted to kill thousands of people. I remember Mette Frederiksen (our prime minister) saying at the big lockdown press conference back in March. “Will we make mistakes? Yes we will” Surprisingly honest, and important to remember for all of us.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Schools 'only reflecting virus levels in community'

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55340597

 

 

Contradicts the latest info on the local radio from Essex County Council

 

Infection rates have increased in the county by 79% in the past 7 days

 

They are stating the council is extremely worried about infection rates in the 11 to 18 age group where infection rates are up to 457 per 100k, county wide for all ages is 305 per 100k

 

Perhaps another way of looking at it is society is reflecting or catching up with the younger generation

 

Over the last few weeks I have first seen arears turn dark blue spreading from East London changing to read spreading up the county, I have also been watching infection rates do the same in Kent where my in-laws live, Milton Keynes (where my sister is)  is also starting to follow a similar pattern

 

I have also noticed death rates in our Essex area thankfully are very low when compared to the two other areas I am watching. Sadly it is being reported our local hospitals are at the rates seen at the height of the first wave

[admiles]

21 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Of course lets have an education system, but one which does not incubate the virus.

 

So what would you have done differently in schools? A detailed plan would be good if you please.

 

[The Stationmaster]

Some interesying stuff here but one number not mentioned (although I saw it elsewhere today and it might not be accurate) is that the death rate from Covid is 0•5%.  Doesn't sound much does it - until you turn it int numbers and real people and a number which exceeds 300,000 for the UK.  Interesting perspective when making decisions or thinking about hospital capacity.

 

As far as uni etc level education is concerned the granddaughter of a friend started in September so fiull education cost plus lic ving (away from home) costs and she gets one online lecture a week, that's the lot.  She could easily have done it from home.   My daughter decided a year back that she wanted to go into nursing and after over a year as a Nursing Asst (which the Trust she works for insists on) her training starts in February and it requires a degree level course and qualification as well as practical training - the degree course will be done through the Open University.   So clearly the University Hospitals Trust which employs her is more than happy for her to do the degree learning and qualification by remote learning and to pay £16,000 for that training.  if you can run a nursing degree course remotely I wonder which others could be run that way?

 

Not the same as school level learning I know but it shows what can be done.  Incidentally the private school near us shut down during lockdown and it and the other private school in the town went in for remote teaching, as did the main local junior and secondary schools.   As some of us learnt in the past in our working lives the only thing that is different about the impossible is that it takes a little longer.   great if schools canb stay open but they need to close parts or totally once infection arrives.

 

I do however come from a generation like 'Hayfie;ld' where ny mother stayed at home until I went to secondary school and my wife stayed at home until our son was in the top year of junior school but she only worked then because she was a part time teaching assistant in that school.  So just one income for a lot of the time and we went without various things - taht is what having a family is very often about.

[hayfield]

31 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

So what would you have done differently in schools? A detailed plan would be good if you please.

 

 

Quite sarcastic I see

 

Probably something like they are being forced into in the new year. Staggered start and finish times, perhaps every other day schooling for longer periods during school days.

Many other if not all other businesses have had to at great cost in time, money and putting them and their staff out have managed to make their premises covid rule compliant if not totally safe. 

 

I understand teaching staff are under pressure, but then everyone is. What is clear is schooling has to change. Our two local schools have been shut for over a week, with many children ill and I suspect teachers.

 

As to what I would have done, everything I could to prevent a free for all before and after school as well as during school,  Any plan is as good as its weakest link, sadly the old plan had two massive weak links

 

All I hear is that children's education is more important than the greater societies health. What's worse missing a few months schooling which can be caught up, or putting granny in hospital ?

[black and decker boy]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

This is a totally different story. When my daughter was born my wife gave up work, we were extremely poor for quite a long time, gradually my wife went back into the work force part time initially and not into full time till she was well into secondary school. We just about kept paying the mortgage during that time and had few luxuries. We kept at one child as this was all we could afford and hand none of the state benefits available to parents today. 

 

My parents were just the same with us, they did the best they could with what they had

 

I accept today its different, but basically because we have become consumers of things that we don't need. 

 

I think this is further evidence that you are out of touch with modern life \ modern society (your whole argument in this thread suggests this).

 

People have to work to eat and pay rent & utilities. There is no benefit state doling out free cash to anyone asking. Millions are in poverty and cannot afford basics.

 

You cannot close schools for a year and expect society to ever be the same again.

 

Everything is a balance and education is being balanced against the virus and exposure of the vulnerable. The rest of the population, mainly adults, are also being balanced in their freedoms to meet at the pub etc.

 

So far, its an end to end game, some months the virus wins, some months it loses. Most people are trying to live that balance of life \ work against virus. Closing schools long term only makes that alot harder.

[Reorte]

11 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

I think this is further evidence that you are out of touch with modern life \ modern society (your whole argument in this thread suggests this).

 

People have to work to eat and pay rent & utilities. There is no benefit state doling out free cash to anyone asking. Millions are in poverty and cannot afford basics.

There are differences. Housing is vastly more expensive these days, and opportunities without needing much in the way of transport much more limited. Basic food is cheap compared to historical levels though. I do think though that it's fair to question whether or not people are worse at making do, but being careful not to generalise when looking at an individual's situation (although it's necessary when considering the overall picture).

[woodenhead]

21 minutes ago, hayfield said:

All I hear is that children's education is more important than the greater societies health. What's worse missing a few months schooling which can be caught up, or putting granny in hospital ?

School is important to societal health - imagine the impact of blighting the lives of millions of children by not educating them properly.

 

The Government is doing what is has to do to cover all the bases of protecting all it's people all of the time - it is probably an almost impossible task, but blighting one huge part of society to protect granny is not on the agenda.

 

Granny shouldn't be seeing her grandkids except via zoom/skype etc, that's the best way to keep her safe.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

I think this is further evidence that you are out of touch with modern life \ modern society (your whole argument in this thread suggests this).

 

People have to work to eat and pay rent & utilities. There is no benefit state doling out free cash to anyone asking. Millions are in poverty and cannot afford basics.

 

You cannot close schools for a year and expect society to ever be the same again.

 

Everything is a balance and education is being balanced against the virus and exposure of the vulnerable. The rest of the population, mainly adults, are also being balanced in their freedoms to meet at the pub etc.

 

So far, its an end to end game, some months the virus wins, some months it loses. Most people are trying to live that balance of life \ work against virus. Closing schools long term only makes that alot harder.

 

Modern Society, that's a new excuse for keeping schooling going !!! I am sure all those who have lost businesses/jobs etc agree its worth the sacrifice they are making

 

People have always had to pay to live, whatever life throws up, people like my farther just shrugged their shoulders and got on with it, come to think of it ,so did my generation

 

Education is important, but not so important it can cause havoc in society. Many of us obtained far more education out of school than in. Even I had the ability to uses letters after my name for work purposes, in truth all that meant was I could study and pass an exam. I have never said close schools long term, but not to keep them running whatever the costs. A covid secure environment must be provided especially for the children and their relatives. My niece is a school teacher and has just caught covid, so much for health and safety at work !!

 

After this epidemic nothing will ever be the same, whether the children go to school or not, just because I have the freedom to go to the pub does not mean I will do so. 

 

As for free state benefits, look at the billions it costs each year, for some of us its a benefit we have paid for all our working lives. Others through misfortune also claim benefits. I was taught social security was a safety net, not a lifestyle some think it is. This is why the needy are not looked after better

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

School is important to societal health - imagine the impact of blighting the lives of millions of children by not educating them properly.

 

The Government is doing what is has to do to cover all the bases of protecting all it's people all of the time - it is probably an almost impossible task, but blighting one huge part of society to protect granny is not on the agenda.

 

Granny shouldn't be seeing her grandkids except via zoom/skype etc, that's the best way to keep her safe.

 

 

Sorry but for a large section of those who have been through the education system this has been the case long before covid, many have had to make something of themselves, despite their schooling.

 

Sadly schools have been failing some children for years, and I guess will continue to do so. Nothing is perfect

[APOLLO]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Some interesying stuff here but one number not mentioned (although I saw it elsewhere today and it might not be accurate) is that the death rate from Covid is 0•5%.  Doesn't sound much does it - until you turn it int numbers and real people and a number which exceeds 300,000 for the UK.  Interesting perspective when making decisions or thinking about hospital capacity.

 

As far as uni etc level education is concerned the granddaughter of a friend started in September so fiull education cost plus lic ving (away from home) costs and she gets one online lecture a week, that's the lot.  She could easily have done it from home.   My daughter decided a year back that she wanted to go into nursing and after over a year as a Nursing Asst (which the Trust she works for insists on) her training starts in February and it requires a degree level course and qualification as well as practical training - the degree course will be done through the Open University.   So clearly the University Hospitals Trust which employs her is more than happy for her to do the degree learning and qualification by remote learning and to pay £16,000 for that training.  if you can run a nursing degree course remotely I wonder which others could be run that way?

 

Not the same as school level learning I know but it shows what can be done.  Incidentally the private school near us shut down during lockdown and it and the other private school in the town went in for remote teaching, as did the main local junior and secondary schools.   As some of us learnt in the past in our working lives the only thing that is different about the impossible is that it takes a little longer.   great if schools canb stay open but they need to close parts or totally once infection arrives.

 

I do however come from a generation like 'Hayfie;ld' where ny mother stayed at home until I went to secondary school and my wife stayed at home until our son was in the top year of junior school but she only worked then because she was a part time teaching assistant in that school.  So just one income for a lot of the time and we went without various things - taht is what having a family is very often about.

 

 Just asked how many hours lectures my girls got on line a month or so ago while in lockdown (both in Tier 3 then).

 

Lancaster (Physics) average of one per day with several hours back up work. Liverpool (Biology) slightly less at 3 to 4 a week with similar back up work & on line exams.. They both miss Lab work, however both Unis hope to commence lab work on a covid rule defined basis next semester. Better than nothing if all act responsibly.

 

In March I thought it would all be over by Christmas. Now I think all of next year will be like now, relaxing only as vaccinations progress

As to the rest of the world / holidays / aviation etc - well, no one knows.

 

As far as having a jab goes, I'll be at the front of the queue.

 

Brit15

[Nearholmer]

Sometimes, looking at cold numbers can take the heat out of debates like this.

 

If you go to https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/ enter your postcode, then on the local area page that comes up, look for a not very obvious link in blue text "All case data in area name" you will get to a stack of detail, including a big chart showing incidence of Covid by five year age bands against time.

 

Study that carefully. I will be very surprised if you find that there is a large "leading" affect from school age children, there is probably some, but likely to be more from late-teens and early-twenties, aka people who tend to socialise heavily in pubs etc.

 

Anyway, see what you can see.

 

As to the generational conflict between the needs to school-age children and the needs of 70+yo adults: it exists. It isn't possible easily or quickly to meet the needs of both in the normal way. In the spring, the need to protect the the elderly especially was prioritised, at great cost to children particularly. Society at large understood that, and particularly every parent of school-age children understood that, and, rightly IMO, the decision was made to protect/prioritise education from September, and to prioritise vaccination for the elderly once vaccines became available.

 

I'm a real scaredy-cat when it comes to this virus, especially since my good lady is vulnerable as a result of immune suppression following cancer treatment and I'm not in the first flush of youth myself, but I also saw how damaging school closure was to our children, especially our youngest, and that in a comfortable home, with neither parent needing to be out of the house to work. The thought of how school closures affects children in difficult circumstances runs a cold shiver down my spine.

 

The case with universities is, IMO, somewhat more complex, and I do wonder whether what students have experienced this past term actually passes for a decent education anyway.

 

The best thing to do IMO is to stop looking for somebody, or some group, to blame for our woes, whether that be old people blaming young people for having the temerity to transmit the virus, or young people blaming old people for having such feeble immune systems that they necessitate shutting down the country to protect them, and focus on getting through this and out the other side.

 

Frankly, we're all having a bloody miserable time as it is, blaming one another, and thereby hacking each other off, only makes it worse.