Buying and Selling models to/from Europe

[Nick C]

14 minutes ago, LimboBrit said:

That's where the problem lies. eBay does not make a distinction between VAT registered vendors and private seller. For me, resident in the Netherlands, wanting to buy something second hand from a private seller, 21% Dutch VAT gets added by eBay which in may cases means it is no longer interesting. eBay's Global Shipping Program makes things even worse.

I don't think that's eBay, I think that's a rule that applies regardless of the merchant - the VAT laws not caring whether something is new or secondhand at the point it's imported into the EU or UK, nor whether or not VAT has already been paid in the other jurisdiction.

[etendam]

On 08/02/2022 at 17:37, LimboBrit said:

That's where the problem lies. eBay does not make a distinction between VAT registered vendors and private seller. 

Not only Ebay does this but that is to any sale from outside the EU (unless the business seller uses IOSS for the VAT) otherwise every business seller starts selling as a private seller with second hands items only.. ..

This to protect the internal market.

Ed

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by etendam

[Enterprisingwestern]

As my dad used to say about betting. "only gamble with money you can afford to lose".

It seems cross border buying and selling of model railway items is entering a similar realm.

 

Mike.

[admiles]

On 11/02/2022 at 17:13, Enterprisingwestern said:

As my dad used to say about betting. "only gamble with money you can afford to lose".

It seems cross border buying and selling of model railway items is entering a similar realm.

 

Mike.

 

Why?  All that's happened is you now have to pay VAT if you buy/import something from the EU. Same as you've always have had to do for goods from outside the EU. 

 

It simply costs more.

[Enterprisingwestern]

10 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

Why?  All that's happened is you now have to pay VAT if you buy/import something from the EU. Same as you've always have had to do for goods from outside the EU. 

 

It simply costs more.

 

 If only it were that simple.

Having the misfortune to live in an Incompetent third world country where the existence of customer service ranks somewhere alongside father Christmas in the probability stakes, goods go missing with worrying regularity, charges are levied without clarification or explanation, (ie IVA isn't always added at the correct percentage, duty is added where it shouldn't be and administration charges are a license to print money) and emails to try and sort out issues go ignored and unanswered.

I understand and appreciate that extra costs are involved and I don't mind paying the correct and fair amounts, but getting ripped of is not acceptable.

 

Mike.

[admiles]

3 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

 If only it were that simple.

Having the misfortune to live in an Incompetent third world country where the existence of customer service ranks somewhere alongside father Christmas in the probability stakes, goods go missing with worrying regularity, charges are levied without clarification or explanation, (ie IVA isn't always added at the correct percentage, duty is added where it shouldn't be and administration charges are a license to print money) and emails to try and sort out issues go ignored and unanswered.

I understand and appreciate that extra costs are involved and I don't mind paying the correct and fair amounts, but getting ripped of is not acceptable.

 

Mike.

 

Fair enough. I was assuming you were UK based. 

[Robert_N-Nm]

Hi there,

 

Just a quick one? Has anyone managed to order items from that big N-gauge shop in Issum, Germany without the German VAT??

 

Whenever I throw something in the basket it remains at the same price as the German price (only the note 'incl. 19% VAT' gets removed) so I'm very reluctant to order with them as I think I end up paying VAT in Germany, postage and then import duty/VAT in the UK as well (happened before with them but then it was just around the old Brexit date). Anyone managed to order without the German VAT or just best avoided......

 

Kind Regards

Robert

[LimboBrit]

16 hours ago, Robert_N-Nm said:

Hi there,

 

Just a quick one? Has anyone managed to order items from that big N-gauge shop in Issum, Germany without the German VAT??

 

Whenever I throw something in the basket it remains at the same price as the German price (only the note 'incl. 19% VAT' gets removed) so I'm very reluctant to order with them as I think I end up paying VAT in Germany, postage and then import duty/VAT in the UK as well (happened before with them but then it was just around the old Brexit date). Anyone managed to order without the German VAT or just best avoided......

 

Kind Regards

Robert

I suggest you call them and ask about how they deal with VAT

[SimonBoulton]

20 hours ago, Robert_N-Nm said:

Hi there,

 

Just a quick one? Has anyone managed to order items from that big N-gauge shop in Issum, Germany without the German VAT??

 

Whenever I throw something in the basket it remains at the same price as the German price (only the note 'incl. 19% VAT' gets removed) so I'm very reluctant to order with them as I think I end up paying VAT in Germany, postage and then import duty/VAT in the UK as well (happened before with them but then it was just around the old Brexit date). Anyone managed to order without the German VAT or just best avoided......

 

Kind Regards

Robert

 

My experience of other German online sites is that the German VAT is only removed once you go to check out, not when you just put something in the basket 

[rekoboy]

On 14/02/2022 at 15:58, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

 If only it were that simple.

Having the misfortune to live in an Incompetent third world country where the existence of customer service ranks somewhere alongside father Christmas in the probability stakes, goods go missing with worrying regularity, charges are levied without clarification or explanation, (ie IVA isn't always added at the correct percentage, duty is added where it shouldn't be and administration charges are a license to print money) and emails to try and sort out issues go ignored and unanswered.

I understand and appreciate that extra costs are involved and I don't mind paying the correct and fair amounts, but getting ripped of is not acceptable.

 

Mike.

I thought this was a perfectly accurate description of the situation in GB!

[Nigel Emery]

On 14/02/2022 at 16:33, Robert_N-Nm said:

Hi there,

 

Just a quick one? Has anyone managed to order items from that big N-gauge shop in Issum, Germany without the German VAT??

 

Whenever I throw something in the basket it remains at the same price as the German price (only the note 'incl. 19% VAT' gets removed) so I'm very reluctant to order with them as I think I end up paying VAT in Germany, postage and then import duty/VAT in the UK as well (happened before with them but then it was just around the old Brexit date). Anyone managed to order without the German VAT or just best avoided......

 

Kind Regards

Robert

I think you’ll have to speak with them to confirm. With my preferred German Model Shop I always pay the full amount inc the VAT by Paypal but they then manually refund the German VAT around the time of dispatch. You wouldn’t know that by looking at their website.

[MarshLane]

Hi all,

New to the German model scene, so interested in this discussion. Myself and a friend are throwing ideas around for a small DB Rhein style layout in N or OO. May or may not reach fruition!

 

On 14/02/2022 at 16:33, Robert_N-Nm said:

Has anyone managed to order items from that big N-gauge shop in Issum, Germany without the German VAT??

 

12 hours ago, SimonBoulton said:

My experience of other German online sites

 

40 minutes ago, Nigel Emery said:

With my preferred German Model Shop I always pay the full amount inc the VAT by Paypal but they then manually refund the German VAT around the time of dispatch.

Could you chaps help me out (via PM if you would rather) at which German model shops your looking at please? Any other shop/mail order recommendations (without wishing to deviate from the thread) or anything to watch out for when buying from the EU when it’s bound for Germany would be welcomed.

 

Richie

[Nick C]

Don't worry everyone - there's no evidence of Brexit hitting trade, apparently... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60407234

 

Everything is this thread is therefore presumably just a figment of our collective imaginations...

[LimboBrit]

36 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Don't worry everyone - there's no evidence of Brexit hitting trade, apparently... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60407234

 

Everything is this thread is therefore presumably just a figment of our collective imaginations...

Thank goodness it's just me that's going mad and not the rest of the world.

[maico]

On 14/02/2022 at 15:36, admiles said:

 

Why?  All that's happened is you now have to pay VAT if you buy/import something from the EU. Same as you've always have had to do for goods from outside the EU. 

 

It simply costs more.

 

If the order value including shipping is under £135 there is no UK VAT applied. I've had 5 orders from German dealers shipped via Fedex and DHL and nothing was charged, so it's actually cost less as German VAT is deducted at the checkout.

Edited February 17, 2022 by maico

[admiles]

48 minutes ago, maico said:

 

Quote

If the order value including shipping is under £135 there is no UK VAT applied

. I've had 5 orders from German dealers shipped via Fedex and DHL and nothing was charged, so it's actually cost less as German VAT is deducted at the checkout.

 

Not quite true I'm afraid...

 

VAT is due even if the value of the models is under £135.00. What should happen (and what HMG would like to happen) is the EU supplier charges UK VAT at point of sale and then pays it back to HMG.  Over £135.00 UK VAT is collected at point of import by Royal Mail, UPS, etc. and billed to the receiver. Either way you're paying UK VAT (in theory!).

 

What's been happening with items under £135.00 is HMR&C have been applying what is known officially as a "soft touch". Or in other words lots of shipments are coming through without being charged. The reasons for this are plentiful. Mainly because an awful lot on EU suppliers don't want to sign up and collect the VAT for HMG (can't say I blame them). Also HMR&C is massively understaffed and can't cope with the extra EU generated workload. This will change at some point.  So basically you have gotten lucky by not having to pay VAT!

 

It should be noted that the above refers to import VAT only. Import duty is a completely different thing. All goods below £135.00 are exempted from paying import duty. Model Railway items are 0% duty anyway so even above £135.00 in value you won't pay import duty.

 

 

 

 

[admiles]

3 hours ago, Nick C said:

Don't worry everyone - there's no evidence of Brexit hitting trade, apparently... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60407234

 

Everything is this thread is therefore presumably just a figment of our collective imaginations...

 

Without wanting to get "political" and working in the shipping and Customs industry I can quite categorically say the amount of companies I've seen either relocate to EU countries or simply go out of business is staggering. As for the amount of extra "red tape" and cost this has saddled the remaining companies with......

 

 

[Nigel Emery]

2 hours ago, admiles said:

 

Not quite true I'm afraid...

 

VAT is due even if the value of the models is under £135.00. What should happen (and what HMG would like to happen) is the EU supplier charges UK VAT at point of sale and then pays it back to HMG.  Over £135.00 UK VAT is collected at point of import by Royal Mail, UPS, etc. and billed to the receiver. Either way you're paying UK VAT (in theory!).

 

What's been happening with items under £135.00 is HMR&C have been applying what is known officially as a "soft touch". Or in other words lots of shipments are coming through without being charged. The reasons for this are plentiful. Mainly because an awful lot on EU suppliers don't want to sign up and collect the VAT for HMG (can't say I blame them). Also HMR&C is massively understaffed and can't cope with the extra EU generated workload. This will change at some point.  So basically you have gotten lucky by not having to pay VAT!

 

It should be noted that the above refers to import VAT only. Import duty is a completely different thing. All goods below £135.00 are exempted from paying import duty. Model Railway items are 0% duty anyway so even above £135.00 in value you won't pay import duty.

 

 

 

 

You’re spot on! I think in the under £135 bracket we’re seeing the EU suppliers splitting into 4 groups:
1) Those who now refuse to send to the UK.
2) Those prepared to collect the tax and have registered with HMRC.
3) Those who have no idea about the changes and carry on as before (2 possible sub groups here - those now deleting their own VAT and those who aren’t)
4) Those who know the new rule but don’t enforce it believing that HMRC have no jurisdiction outside the UK and any attempt to enforce it would fail in the german courts. (I’ve said German in that sentence because the shop who said similar words to that to me were in Germany - For obvious reasons I’m not going to say who.

Will this change at some point? There is a risk that some shops will move from group 3 to group 1 on receipt of something official from HMRC. As you said HMRC were understaffed before Brexit and the “Building Our Future” programme has lost them a lot of good staff so my bet is it will be a long time before the missing revenue from the under £135 parcels gets very high up their priority list. Time will tell.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Nigel Emery

[maico]

Big players like Aliexpress in China have UK VAT number registration and charge it on checkout on small orders.I paid 20% on a £9 item.

Some well known German dealers do not. HMRC have no jurisdiction in Germany.

Edited February 17, 2022 by maico

[admiles]

8 minutes ago, maico said:

Big players like Aliexpress in China have UK VAT number registration and charge it on checkout on small orders.I paid 20% on a £9 item.

Some well known German dealers do not. HMRC have no jurisdiction in Germany.

 

.....they don't have any in China either!  Hence the mess we're currently in. It's all very well someone having these bright ideas but putting them into practice let alone enforcing them is proving...problematic!

[maico]

4 hours ago, admiles said:

 

.....they don't have any in China either!  Hence the mess we're currently in. It's all very well someone having these bright ideas but putting them into practice let alone enforcing them is proving...problematic!

 

Aliexpress is like Amazon. It streamlines the international delivery process by complying with national rules. Most of their business is small vendors shipping millions of low-cost packets. The Chinese Government subsidizes shipping.

I just got an email saying my package is in the hands of Royal Mail. It clearly came by air taking just 10 days with free shipping. HMRC gets their cut seamlessly, whereas in the past they got zilch.

Edited February 17, 2022 by maico

[Enterprisingwestern]

9 hours ago, maico said:

 

Aliexpress is like Amazon. It streamlines the international delivery process by complying with national rules. Most of their business is small vendors shipping millions of low-cost packets. The Chinese Government subsidizes shipping.

I just got an email saying my package is in the hands of Royal Mail. It clearly came by air taking just 10 days with free shipping. HMRC gets their cut seamlessly, whereas in the past they got zilch.

 

I've just received an electrical item from Aliexpress, it cost less than £2 tax paid, had free delivery and the final delivery to my house was by local courier, and they charge me 6 euros to send a small package to the UK.

That's one heck of a subsidisation, although long may it continue!

 

Mike.

[Andy Hayter]

I am not sure it is the Chinese that are providing the subsidy but rather it is the Universal Postal Union (a UN body) which requires national postal services to subsidise the postage cost for developing countries (and yes China is still considered as such).

 

https://www.businesstelegraph.co.uk/uk-retailers-squeezed-by-postal-subsidies-for-china/

 

This explains what is going on although the article is getting on for 4 years old.

[etendam]

23 hours ago, admiles said:

 

Without wanting to get "political" and working in the shipping and Customs industry I can quite categorically say the amount of companies I've seen either relocate to EU countries or simply go out of business is staggering. As for the amount of extra "red tape" and cost this has saddled the remaining companies with......

 

 

Last week there was an article in a Dutch newspaper saying that in 2021 400 UK companies setup a business in the Netherlands (either office or just a warehouse) and that this created 11000 new FT jobs.

 

Ed

[Ian Morgan]

The Universal Postal Union (UPU) defined China as a 'developing country' which meant that they paid a pittance for international post, and the postal operators in the receiving countries absorbed the cost of delivery to the final destinations. A couple of years ago, Donald Trump threw his toys out of his pram and threatened to withdraw the US from the UPU as delivering mail from China was costing the US Postal Service millions. This would have really disrupted, or potentially stopped completely, global mail services. The UPU had to agree to allowing the receiving postal operators to increase their charges to the Chinese gradually over a number of years, so the cheap 'subsidised' postal rates from China will eventually disappear.