Building a Midland Railway Kirtley Goods: working on the motion.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

3 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

The locomotive looks very good Douglas. Being a pedantic PITA, though, I think that the springs should be black. Nice to see the Midland brown livery. 

 

Dave

Ah, thank you Dave for the confirmation about the springs, I was wondering. Are they black on both engine and tender?

Edited February 1, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Dave Hunt]

Yes they are Douglas.

 

Dave

[Florence Locomotive Works]

The springs and tender axelboxes were painted this afternoon. Hopefully I’ll get time to do the tender buffer beam and buffers. Anybody have suggestions for decals etc? 

 

 

A bit of touching up still needs doing in places, as one might be able to see. 
 

So, now that we have fully decided on the tender shaft drive method, in the footsteps of the late Sid Stubbs, here is what will be procured. 
 

1. A Northwest Shortline 28-1 gearbox, which is the right size for the engine. The gear bore will need drilling out to 1/8 inch. 
 

2. Drive shafting of some description, possibly home made. 
 

3. The Walters flywheel fitted motor from an EMD GP9M, which themselves are nice engines. 
 

This motor will be somehow be mounted in the tender, either to the chassis or the roof. The chassis, well more specifically the axles have a good degree of sideplay which needs fixing so as not to slap to one side under heavy load. The two new outside cranks also need making, but I’m cooking sausage hash tonight and I’ve a fair bit of homework, so I’ll see what I can do. 
 

Douglas

Edited February 2, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[J. S. Bach]

If you can, use a flexible spring instead of a rigid shaft.

[Regularity]

30 minutes ago, J. S. Bach said:

If you can, use a flexible spring instead of a rigid shaft.

As the actress said to the Bishop...

[J. S. Bach]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

As the actress said to the Bishop...

I have not heard that line in years!

[Florence Locomotive Works]

One of the outside cranks has been remade. Well both have actually, but only one has been installed to allow for me to remove the wheelsets for the installation of the gearbox. 

 

 

Layout update: A wee bit has been done in the past 10 days. I'm not sure if i mentioned it already, but the sector plate is now powered, using sprung clips attached to the rails. The sector plate itself needs a serious rebuilt, as its simply some Hornby flexi-track glued to some card, with accompanying ornate victorian railing. It will probably be rebuilt onto a thin sheet of balsa, or maybe something a bit more weighty. A slider mechanism will also need making, which will meen drilling a hole through the very bottom of the platform. Not to big of a deal as it can be disguised as a drain or something.

 

Douglas

Edited February 3, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Layout plan time:

 

 

The wanted look: I'm going for a area built in the early 1870s in urban Sheffield, with a station and an industrial siding, border on one side by tenements, and on the others heavy industry. Out of shot of the layout will, maybe on the viewer side of the platform would be a substantial factory. A Tangye's of Birmingham subsidiary possibly. This factory would have one of its ends open similar to Lawley Street Goods depot. 

 

 

Lawley Street Goods Depot: - Close up showing the entrances provided for railway traffic at Lawley Street Goods and Grain Warehouse and a variety of ventilated vans (warwickshirerailways.com)

 

The single tracked line would lead down the left side of factory to the station and the siding serving Messr's D.M. Bodger & Co. This would mean the concrete "ballast" would more than likely follow it, given that the other side of the line would be tenements and not open grass or something. However would it have been concrete/cement? Or would it have been cobblestone?

 

 

Lawley Street Goods Depot: - Close up showing one of the Midland Railway's articulated extendable horse-drawn vehicles designed to move long and heavy loads (warwickshirerailways.com)

 

Above we see another view of Lawley Street, showing not cement, but cobblestone! This could however have been outside the smaller shed behind Lawley Street. I suppose it could be possible to do both on the layout, maybe mostly cement with the odd patch of cobble. However it would be easiest to do only one.

 

Wednesfield Road Goods Depot (historywebsite.co.uk)

 

A possible crane. But then at Wednesfield we see what appears to be dirt, but more likely cinder ballast. They've also got quite the crane, a 4mm model of a similar crane persevered at Gloucester Docks Holt Model Railways used to sell, however I believe they have sense ceased trading. If anybody knows the maker a 4mm Midland crane, please say so. Of course I'm not sure such a layout would be of a size to warrant any crane, but given the products of D.M. Bodger's works, could it have been plausible?

 

The Wagon Turntable. Now we come to matter of the wagon turntable.

 

 

Curzon Street Good Station: View of two wagon turntables demonstrating how wagons could be directed along tracks at oblique angles (warwickshirerailways.com)

 

Above at Curzon street we see two much abused Midland WT's. They appear to have an iron ring running round the outside, surrounded by cobble. Or at least at one point they did. It would appear like the "floor" is a mix of cobbles, cement, vegetation and cinder ballast. Perhaps this would be a better look for China Gates?

 

Credit to @Schooner for the idea of the format for this post. However it is far less thorough then his fantastic posts.

 

Douglas

[CKPR]

On 01/02/2021 at 22:50, Florence Locomotive Works said:

. Drive shafting of some description, possibly home made. 

You can substitute small lengths of neoprene tubing [sold as fuel line for radio-control planes and boats] for  universal joints at the ends of the drive shaft connecting to the motor and gearbox and use a piece of steel rod for the inter-connecting shaft itself.

[Caley Jim]

If it's infilled track you want to represent then it would be cobbles.  I doubt if cement would be used back then.  However, cobbles would only be used where there was also going to be considerable traffic in carts etc. in order to bring the surface up to the level of the rails.   If it was just a siding passing a building then ash ballast is the most likely.

 

Jim

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Today as I'm iced in (so can't attend school), I will on my fairly lengthy lunch break try and fit the third outside crank back onto the axle, as I have decided to keep the engine unmotorised for simplicity.

 

But dear fellow contributors, are or were there any USA powered tender models that could perhaps have their tenders repurposed into a six wheel van or something?

 

Douglas

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Well all the cranks have been fitted and the quartering done. As you can see I had to make the omission of the port side center crank pin, as it was a bit tight with it fitted and I didn’t want to take it all to pieces for the 5th time. 
 

 

It still has some random only appearing tight spots, which I’ve narrowed down to the axles randomly rubbing against the “hornblocks.” These will be fixed in due course. The tender buffer beam also got painted today, but I’m thinking of investing in some spring buffers, and I’ve also discovered that Roxey Moldings sells the Markits Salter springs, so a set of them might be in order also. But for know here’s a nice shot of No 750 in the platform at China Gates. 
 

 

Douglas

Edited February 11, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[J. S. Bach]

36 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Well all the cranks have been fitted and the quartering done. As you can see I had to make the omission of the port side center crank pin, as it was a bit tight with it fitted and I didn’t want to take it all to pieces for the 5th time.  ...snip...

Douglas

Cut the head of the crankpin off leaving a very, very tiny nub on the back and superglue it to the rod. It will then look proper.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

On 11/02/2021 at 17:02, J. S. Bach said:

Cut the head of the crankpin off leaving a very, very tiny nub on the back and superglue it to the rod. It will then look proper.

Yes I was thinking of doing something like that.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

So, another new plan, that sadly will not please everybody. 
 

I’ve decided to do a freelance line, set in about 1857.

 

One twist though.

 

 

The line is set in Santa Fe, New Mexico. 
 

But why I hear you cry? 
 

Well, I have for many years had an interest in the railways of Africa, or railways in hostile environments in general. Now Santa Fe is certainly not the most hostile of environments, but it does get quite hot during the summer and gets several inches of snow in the winter. So the engines would have to look a bit African, but still have rather enclosed cabs. 

 

 

Enter Egyptian State Railways of the late 1850s. Almost the entire network was in a desert, and used pretty much exact copies of Midland Railway and GNR locomotives, with large cab roofs added. Below for example is this preserved Stephenson 0-6-0, which has more than a passing resemblance to a Kirtley Goods. It is now part of the Cairo Railway Museum, but it could make a nice starting point for a new build 700 class. 
 

(Credit)

 

There’s also this engine below, built by Kitson and seen at Ismailia Station in 1920. It strongly resembles a Kirtley 2-2-2, apart from the driving leaf spring  being below the frames. 

(Credit)

 

But what if anything has been done to my engine? Well, other than a large cab roof being fitted, nothing. I think it looks very good with this new roof, and should look quite at home on the Santa Fe layout, which will be my much maligned broad gauge once was. 
 

 

The livery will be kept as goods brown, which is actually the same as Egyptian State Railways, except they had vermillion frames. But as mine will not be running in Egypt, just following Egyptian practice, the livery will stay the same. 

 

So why Santa Fe? Well, I have “holidayed” there in the past, and found the scenery and architecture very nice. The rough plan for the layout is linked below, however at that time I was still thinking of using Ho 4-4-0s. Now however all the stock will be OO British outline, modified to look like something Stephenson’s would have made for Egypt. 

 

Douglas

[ChrisN]

If you had swapable cab roofs you could run your locos on both layouts.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

A question for all,

 

Would the new Santa Fe topic be more at home in the USA/Canadian Railroads section or the Pre-Grouping section of this forum? 
 

Douglas

Edited February 14, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[J. S. Bach]

Keep it here.

[burgundy]

On 14/02/2021 at 15:43, Florence Locomotive Works said:

So, another new plan, that sadly will not please everybody. 
 

I’ve decided to do a freelance line, set in about 1857.

 

One twist though.

 

There’s also this engine below, built by Kitson and seen at Ismailia Station in 1920. It strongly resembles a Kirtley 2-2-2, apart from the driving leaf spring  being below the frames. 

(Credit)

 

But what if anything has been done to my engine? Well, other than a large cab roof being fitted, nothing. I think it looks very good with this new roof, and should look quite at home on the Santa Fe layout, which will be my much maligned broad gauge once was. 
 

So why Santa Fe? Well, I have “holidayed” there in the past, and found the scenery and architecture very nice. The rough plan for the layout is linked below, however at that time I was still thinking of using Ho 4-4-0s. Now however all the stock will be OO British outline, modified to look like something Stephenson’s would have made for Egypt. 

 

Douglas

The Egyptian single is very similar to the batch of Stephenson built singles that were sold on to Egypt by the LB&SCR in 1865. It is a tangled story that I will not go into here, but the point is that there is a kit available for precisely these locos! As a kit, it makes up into a very nice model, although I confess that I did not go for the Egyptian version. 

As a more general comment on your scheme for a model based on Sante Fe, US and UK design practice diverged fundamentally from a very early stage. US railroads were generally built with lightly engineered  permanent way, to which European rigid framed locos did not take kindly. The Standard American 4-4-0 evolved as a very flexible type, which could cope with poor track. Working on the Roswell Mill project, I found the contrasts, and the different evolutionary processes, quite fascinating. 

Best wishes 

Eric   

Edited February 16, 2021 by burgundy
spelling

[Compound2632]

On 03/02/2021 at 20:01, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Layout plan time:

 

The wanted look: I'm going for a area built in the early 1870s in urban Sheffield, with a station and an industrial siding, border on one side by tenements, and on the others heavy industry. Out of shot of the layout will, maybe on the viewer side of the platform would be a substantial factory. A Tangye's of Birmingham subsidiary possibly. This factory would have one of its ends open similar to Lawley Street Goods depot. 

 

 

Nicely observed there. I know you've moved on for the time being but I'll just point out that those Curzon Street wagon turntables are LNWR not Midland. The LNWR was very heavily into such things, combined with capstan shunting, whereas they were rather rarer on the Midland - though not unknown. The three main Midland goods stations in Birmingham, Lawley Street, Camp Hill, and Central, did not have them.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Compound2632

[PenrithBeacon]

57 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Nicely observed there. I know you've moved on for the time being but I'll just point out that those Curzon Street wagon turntables are LNWR not Midland. The LNWR was very heavily into such things, combined with capstan shunting, whereas they were rather rarer on the Midland - though not unknown. The three main Midland goods stations in Birmingham, Lawley Street, Camp Hill, and Central, did not have them.

They might just have been London & Birmingham Railway as the standard LNWR design was cast iron. IIRC the North Midland used wagon turntables on its line north of Derby at wayside stations.

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

They might just have been London & Birmingham Railway as the standard LNWR design was cast iron. IIRC the North Midland used wagon turntables on its line north of Derby at wayside stations.

 

Yes, indeed, since wagon turntables tend to be a mark of early construction.

 

Thinking of Midland examples, there are the ones at wayside stations on the Bristol & Gloucester, presumably kept on conversion of gauge because of the rather cramped arrangement of the goods yards, and at London coal depots - West Kensington for example.

[PenrithBeacon]

Looking at the NLS maps Belper seems to be the one that  is the exception ie the only NMR station south of Dronfield that has wagon turntables. It is though a very constricted site and the others seem to have had a lot more development work done. 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

@burgundy

Yes I had heard about those singles, but hadn't found reference to them for over a year anywhere, thank you for that.

 

@Compound2632

You never know, I may find room for a wagon turntable!

 

 

 

 

Anyways heres a midley rambling video I made outlining the plan for the layout in a much better way than I could type. It is worth a watch though. (I didn't make a script, oops)

 

 

 

 

 

Here we have some photos of the scenery that I took last March. I'm returning this coming March so I'll take many more.

 

 

In the photo above we see the densely bushed ridgeline across the valley, in reality the line is actually just on the other side of this, and in real life this ridgeline goes all the way to the back the Masonic Temple. The road I mention in the video is the road at the foot of the ridge. Off in the distance to the right you can see the highway to Albuquerque, which looks fantastic at night.

 

 

Above we see a typical road leeding done in the valley.

 

 

The above photo shows a semi abandoned dam/waterworks complex form the 1880s, as does the one below.

 

 

Douglas

[J. S. Bach]

Hmmm, if all goes well, I will be driving through Albuquerque in late June on my way to Farmington and then maybe visiting the Cumbres & Toltec on my return.