Building a Midland Railway Kirtley Goods: working on the motion.

[Dave Hunt]

If it helps, Douglas, No. 750 had steam brakes by 1890 but was not recorded as being fitted with automatic vacuum brakes.

 

Dave  

[J. S. Bach]

5 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

 ...snip... The plan now, as I believe @DavidCBroad said at the beginning of this thread is to have shaft drive from the tender to the engine. So a idler gearbox from Northwest Shortline will be bought, along with some shafting and universal joints. I haven't decided what motor to use yet, but it will probably be a double flywheel something or other from a Athearn diesel. This motor will be epoxied to the roof of the tender, with pickups going to the tender wheels. This will allow me to install a fake ash pan and possibly brake gear. However as I can't find any photographs of number 750, i don't know if she had brake gear.

 

I will also be looking into the feasibility of putting wiper pickups on the engine. The main problem being how to isolate them from the chassis.

 

Douglas

A number of thoughts:

1. Make the tender drive a real tender drive by keeping ALL of the components in the tender; that shafting will give problems.

 

2. DO NOT epoxy the motor to the underside of the tender deck, in case of a failure/design flaw any repairs will be very difficult. The Athearn motor is a good one, btw. If you go with the shafting, the Athearn diesel just may supply all that you need.

 

3. Power pick-up wipers on all wheels is a great idea; especially on a short wheelbase like the one you are making. My personal favorite are the ones that ride (wipe?) on the wheel treads, a second advantage is that they tend to help keep the wheels cleaner.

Edited January 27, 2021 by J. S. Bach
To add some forgotten text and to correct some spelling errors..

[DCB]

Many many thousands of US outline 4-4-0s have tender motor and loco wheel drive because of the small boiler and they don't give much trouble, AFAIK the Airfix US 4-4-0s used this system and the UK 14XX had a similar system with a universal jointed drive shaft so they could keep the motor level  The driveshaft was probably the least troublesome part of the whole loco.

I have several K's tender drive units but I wouldn't actually use one to power the tender..  Might be handy for a GN Sturrock 0-6-0 with steam tender...

[Florence Locomotive Works]

An updated new plan for the motor.

 

In the interest of simplicity, and cost, I have elected to buy one of the rather big and lumpy but reliable and easy to work on XO4/Pittman open frame motors which will be housed inside the engine. They are also fairly smooth running due to there weight, at least when compared to the K’s motor. The K’s motor would probably be fine if a flywheel was integrated into the worm, but alas this was not the case. 
 

(Photo credit)

 

The motor will most likely resemble what is above, and will have a angled slot cut in the frame to accept it. A hole will be drilled and taped probably 4 BA into the beefy stator housing, and the bolt will be passed through a preexisting hole in the rear frame stretcher, to use the full size term. This will in theory anchor the motor in place.

 

Douglas

[Dave Hunt]

I think that 4BA would be a trifle large; 6 or even 8BA woUld be sufficient.

 

Dave

[Dave Hunt]

Douglas, I thought this might be of interest. I've dug out my Ks Kirtley DF goods 0-6-0 that I made in the stone age about 1975 or 76.

 

 

The poor thing hasn't turned a wheel in over forty years now and since I don't have any 00 track it isn't likely to. It has an XO4 motor and in its day performed well. As you can see, it was modelled as running in about 1920 so is simply plain black (with lots of accumulated muck - that's not an attempt at weathering!).

 

Dave

[Florence Locomotive Works]

I reinstalled the K's 5 pole motor after realising that the gears were not correctly meshing. (foolish boy) A heavier K's worm was also fitted, and the engagement corrected. Hopefully this heavier worm will add a bit more momentum. This afternoon a test shall be had after the pickups are resoldered. All going well the engine will be painted tomorrow, and possible even the tender, but that is more likely to be done on sunday as it needs primer.

 

Douglas

[Florence Locomotive Works]

I once again became fed up with the K’s motor.

 

So what are the options for a drive train?

 

in no particular order:

 

1. Buy a Hornby ringfield tender (in the USA) and hope it fits under the tender body, which I’m fairly sure it doesn’t. It would be the most straightforward method though. Are there other any US tender drive locos?

 

2. Find a great big chunky pitman motor and shove it inside the boiler. 
 

3. Get the motor from a Athern diesel and somehow mount it inside the tender, and use shaft drive to a NWSL idler gearbox in the engine. Complicated but probably smooth running. 
 

4. The least viable and most expensive  option, by a motor and gearbox from High Level kits. I wish not to do this as currently USPS international shipping times are in the months...

 

Any help, advice, and moral support will be gratefully accepted. 
 

Douglas

[J. S. Bach]

8 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I once again became fed up with the K’s motor.

So what are the options for a drive train?

in no particular order:

 ...snip...

3. Get the motor from a Athern diesel and somehow mount it inside the tender, and use shaft drive to a NWSL idler gearbox in the engine. Complicated but probably smooth running.

 ...snip...

This would be your best bet. Get an Athearn diesel (type immaterial) with the motor mounted on the fuel tank with four rubber/polymer  mounts. Athearn late "blue box era" comes to mind. Use the hole pattern of the fuel tank and use it in the tender. That will make maintenance easy and the r/p mounts give some mechanical/electrical isolation to the motor. The drive shafts and universals will also be useful. Just some thoughts.

Edited January 29, 2021 by J. S. Bach
To add some information and change some text.

[CKPR]

Here's some real 'old school' inspiration for you - this is from the Railway Modeller February 1966 and is the work of the late Sid Stubbs, one of the legendary 'Manchester standard' modellers who developed  fine-scale EM gauge after the war. It's the remote drive for his inside-framed MR 0-6-0 goods engine, known as 'Kirtley' of course, and everything but everything was scratch-built - wheels, motor, the lot. I'm pretty sure  he wrote another article on the building of this engine but I can't immediately lay my hands on it -  if I can find it, I'll post more pictures. 

 

I had the privilege of meeting Sid not long before he passed away when the local EMGS were invited round to see his 'Northchurch' layout and needless to say, it was impressive and he was a lovely old chap.  

[Regularity]

Proper engineering!

[Dave Hunt]

Sid Stubbs was indeed a lovely man and a superb modeller. I knew him back in the 80s and early 90s and had the privilege of visiting his home a few times where his miniature engineering used to astound me. He once gave me one of his beautifully made gearboxes that I have used over the years in a couple of models and which is earmarked for another one; it is probably the most silky smooth piece of work I have ever used. The one thing he didn't like was painting models and invariably had several of them running around in bare brass finish.

 

Dave

Edited January 30, 2021 by Dave Hunt
Pressed the send button before I'd finished

[PenrithBeacon]

I think those motors are much too big for a 4mm scale model.

You'd be better off with one of these and bevel gears

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Well ladies and gents,

 

The problem has been solved, rather paradoxically.

 

Neither the engine or tender will be motorized at all!

 

I have in my possession the tender motor from a Bachman John Bull which is more or less a early Stephenson locomotive. And on @Ian Simpson’s blog, he mentions how it can be easily turned into a early pattern GNR horse box, IRC. This is the plan, and it will probably be permanently coupled to the tender.

 

Well I hear you cry, does it actually work?!

 

Surprisingly, yes and very well at that.

 

The plan for today is to go to the local Lowe’s and acquire the correct Krylon paint, which as we discussed earlier, is an exact match for Midland goods brown. The engine will, assuming it stops raining, be painted. Some primer will also probably be bought, and the tender sprayed. 
 

 

Douglas

Edited January 30, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Florence Locomotive Works]

I suppose one could say this is proof of concept.
 

 

As one can see, the motor has loads of lead on top to stop it slipping. It’s also only coupled to the engine with a floppy wire hook, so the tender gets pushed about quite a bit. However, the results are far superior to what could be had with an XO4, and maybe even shaft drive. The main problem with those are pickup problems. 
 

The aforementioned lead will be housed in various places around the body, and it might be replaced with lead balls. The body will almost certainly be made from styrene. 
 

Douglas

[J. S. Bach]

2 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I suppose one could say this is proof of concept.

As one can see, the motor has loads of lead on top to stop it slipping. It’s also only coupled to the engine with a floppy wire hook, so the tender gets pushed about quite a bit. However, the results are far superior to what could be had with an XO4, and maybe even shaft drive. The main problem with those are pickup problems.

The aforementioned lead will be housed in various places around the body, and it might be replaced with lead balls. The body will almost certainly be made from styrene.
Douglas

Hmmm, now I will not have to dig out the scrap-line Athearn SD45 (SDP40, I do not remember which) that I would have sent you. The body shell is missing bits and bobs but mechanically it is complete.

[Dave Hunt]

7 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I have in my possession the tender motor from a Bachman John Bull which is more or less a early Stephenson locomotive. And on @Ian Simpson’s blog, he mentions how it can be easily turned into a early pattern GNR horse box, IRC. This is the plan, and it will probably be permanently coupled to the tender.

 

Horses for courses I suppose?

 

Dave

[Florence Locomotive Works]

And now ladies and gents I present the latest product of the Florence Avenue Locomotive Works, with accompanying motion picture. 
 

 

She not quite finished, but presentable. My thanks for the advice along the way, and that which is still needed. 
 

The painting of the frames. 
 

 

The big coat.

 

 

Ex. Works. Well almost.

 

 

 

Douglas

[Mikkel]

That was fast! Looks good. With the horsebox over the drive unit, it will all be very elegant.

[ChrisN]

It is not only the Midland that used power units in horseboxes, the Cambrian did as well.  See here.  

Edited January 31, 2021 by ChrisN

[Florence Locomotive Works]

I still wasn’t happy with this arrangement.

 

So the decision has been made to leave the engine until sufficient funds and my skills have advanced for me to buy  the chassis for a Brassmasters  4f. But for now I’m going back to modeling the Liverpool and Manchester.

 

Douglas

 

Edit:  We shall prevail!

Edited January 31, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[CKPR]

You've got a free-rolling chassis so you're 80% of the way there  - I'd put it to one side and come back to the motorisation issue at a  later date. Putting a small can motor in the tender and running a drive shaft to a NWSL gear box  or similar on the middle axle (a la Sid Stubbs !) is one future option.

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

I think you can be very proud of what you've achieved there, with a frankly long-in-the-tooth old-fashioned kit. 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

So about an hour after my last post I just thought,

 

"Nah, I'm finishing this."

 

 

So what was the problem? Broken outside cranks, courtesy of me trying to fit the very nice can motor from the Bachmann tender was to be horse box. All the originals were destroyed when dismantling, but after reinstalling the pickups the results with that motor seemed very good.

 

 

Then I tried making some outside cranks out of styrene.

 

Not a terribly fun or successful experience.

 

Two of them are slightly out, making the tiny motor overload.

 

So this evening I intend to remake the wonky ones and refit the can motor, and see what happens. The pickups will also probably go up inside the body this time.

 

 

And if the styrene cranks don’t end up working, I've drawn up some 3d printable ones.

 

Douglas

Edited February 1, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Dave Hunt]

The locomotive looks very good Douglas. Being a pedantic PITA, though, I think that the springs should be black. Nice to see the Midland brown livery. 

 

Dave