New ‘coking coal’ mine in Cumbria

[billtee]

I know this is slightly ‘off-topic’, but as we are all railway enthusiasts (otherwise we would not be modelling railways), I think it is relevant.

A new coal mine is being proposed for Cumbria, but it will be producing ‘coking coal’.

Now, I am not an expert on types of coal, so I am asking everyone:

Will steam locomotives (specifically, HERITAGE preserved steam locomotives) be able to use this type of coal, or will preserved/heritage railways still have to import coal from Russia and other countries to run their locomotives?

I realise that Welsh coal, with very high calorific value(?) is ‘the best’ according to the experts, but with the closure of all Britain’s mines that type of coal will no longer be available.

That means even MORE harmful CO2 being added to the world’s atmosphere so that we steam enthusiasts can enjoy our hobby, which can’t be good.

Any comments about the proposals might be very interesting!

All the very best,

Bill

 

[tomparryharry]

Hello Bill,  

Coal can be used for many things, including part of the steel making process.  By making coke, the impurities captured within the original fossil fuel are 'driven off' by burning in an enclosed space.  Certain seams of coal have higher or lower chemical values (including calorific values ). depending on location, seam depth, etc.  A QC chemist will test the incoming coke and recommend blending with other batches to get the right chemical composition for the customer.  

 

As this new mine is a private commercial enterprise, then the permission process will likely be very strict, with the emphasis on single point destination.   In this day & age, if a load of coal goes outside  the permitted path will attract the attention of the permission process authorities, so the prospect for 'outside use' might well be strictly limited. 

 

Fros-Yr Fran  opencast (Merthyr ) has/had the same similar planning restrictions. Although the Brecon Mountain Railway is only 3 miles from the opencast, it has to go 'outside' to buy the coal. 

 

Personally, I think that the use of coal will continue,  but current legislation will probably limit the use to single point use and/ or destination.  Another viewpoint is that as a commercial operation, the mining company  already  has an   end point client, and to maximise profit, that company will regard heritage railways as an irrelevance.  By that logic, they  might well decline to do business, given the environmental furore  that might occur should such a transaction take place.  

 

I used to own full-sizes steam locomotives, but I sold them on. I took a pragmatic view that having spent a considerable sum  on restoring a locomotive , to have a ban imposed on its safe use  isn't good business, whichever way you want to look at it. 

 

A bit gloomy, but there we are. Interesting times.

 

Cheers,

Ian. 

[Guy Rixon]

Back in the day there were many pits in Cumbria, but their coal was considered unsuitable for coking and iron-making. There was a massive flow of coke and coking coal off the NER, from Durham. It seems weird that a pit specifically to serve steelworks should be sunk in Cumbria of all places.

[Respite]

Some of the coal from Harrington No.10 colliery at Lowca and Haig Colliery  at Whitehaven went to Moss Bay Ironworks at Workington latterly United Steel and then British Steel. I always had the impression that the Cumberland coalfield couldn't supply enough  coking coal hence the trains coming over the Pennines. The suitability of the coal for coking could be determined by which seam it came from and of course suitable seams would become unworkable due to faults and being worked out.

 

The environmental lobby are very vociferous, the amount of coal steam railways use is negligible in the grand scheme of things. As many people have already pointed out importing coal from Australia and Russia makes no environment sense, and who knows what will happen to the price. I have fired locos on the Fros y Fran coal and its hard to make it produce smoke even if you wanted to.

[eastglosmog]

I've posted this before - it shows that the Cumberland Coalfield produced Coal Rank 500 which is strongly caking, but the stuff from the western Durham Coalfield was better (rank 300 and 400) which is why it was dragged over Stainmore in large quantities.

[simontaylor484]

The carbon produced by burning UK coal is a drop in the ocean compared to what carbon is produced by importing coal from abroad which is not the same quality as that that used to be produced in the Uk.

 

 

[didcot]

I can't understand the thinking behind UK coal strategy. It smacks of not in my back yard. So close all the pits and you appear to be doing your bit for the environment. But coal is needed for steel and cement production as well as in the heritage sector. But buying coal from abroad is sort of shifting the blame. It has a bigger carbon footprint than coal production in the UK and potentially a lower quality. But its not seen as the UK who is being non environmentally friendly.

Global warming is a real concern. However we need to recognise the need for coal. The heritage sector accounts for less than 0.5% if I remember the figures correctly. I think Clovelly in Devon has regular coal deliveries. There are bigger sources of carbon pollution than need to be tackled.

[Wheatley]

The pits weren't closed because of their environmental impact, they were closed because it was cheaper to transport coal halfway across the world than to mine it in this country where the seams are generally thin and inefficient to work. By the time environmental factors became a thing the damage to the industry was done. 

[Andy Hayter]

One point that is not mentioned but is key to steel production is that in order to make steel you actually need to incorporate a couple percent carbon into the metal matrix.  It is this that converts iron into steel - which you can then customise further by adding other materials.

 

So given that we do not have a cheap and large supply of diamond, coal is the most economic source of carbon.  Coking improves the purity of the carbon being added.  Much of the carbon does burn off in the process but nevertheless no coke = no steel even if you could heat the iron economically.  Electric arc furnaces do exist but still need carbon to convert iron to steel.

[russ p]

One thing the media seem to have missed this isn't really useful a new pit its actually reopening haig pit but as a drift rather than shafts.  I never really understood the logic of the shafts been sunk from the cliff top only for the coal to have to use inclines. 

I'm not sure if anyone as actually been in to the old workings yet as I would have thought them to be flooded

[didcot]

That reminds me, must get some steam coal for my 5" locos. Tried the smokeless we use in our stove, produces to much ash.

[Victor Vectis]

It's not Haig Pit being reopened.

 

The proposed mine is a reopening of a pair of drifts that were used to gain access to anhydrite deposits.

 

The coal measures lie at greater depth so the plan is to refurbish the existing drifts and drive them deeper to get to the coal.

 

Lots of info here: https://www.westcumbriamining.com/

Edited February 4, 2021 by Victor Vectis

[russ p]

4 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

It's not Haig Pit being reopened.

 

The proposed mine is a reopening of a pair of drifts that were used to gain access to anhydrite deposits.

 

The coal measures lie at greater depth so the plan is to refurbish the existing drifts and drive them deeper to get to the coal.

 

Lots of info here: https://www.westcumbriamining.com/

 

Is it not in haigs old reserves ?

Has anyone neen in the old drifts. It must be quite a risky plan if haig isn't going to be drained as if the accidentally break into its workings the results would be absolutely catastrophic 

[Victor Vectis]

The Mines (Precautions Against Inrushes) Regulations 1979

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1979/318/made

 

General duty to take precautions against inrushes

 

3.  With respect to every working in a mine, it shall be the duty of the manager to prevent any inrush into the working of—

(a) gas from disused workings (whether mine workings or not), or

(b) water or material that flows or is likely to flow when wet from any source.

[jonny777]

1 hour ago, simontaylor484 said:

The carbon produced by burning UK coal is a drop in the ocean compared to what carbon is produced by importing coal from abroad which is not the same quality as that that used to be produced in the Uk.

 

 

 

And even that is a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of Carbon Monoxide coming out of vehicle exhausts. 

[russ p]

22 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

The Mines (Precautions Against Inrushes) Regulations 1979

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1979/318/made

 

General duty to take precautions against inrushes

 

3.  With respect to every working in a mine, it shall be the duty of the manager to prevent any inrush into the working of—

(a) gas from disused workings (whether mine workings or not), or

(b) water or material that flows or is likely to flow when wet from any source.

 

Is there equipment to detect old workings?  I know in the pat there have been methane emissions from the candlestick ignited by lightning so obviously gas and water in haig

[Respite]

It sounds like the pair of drifts being proposed for reopening are the Marchon anhydrite mine at Kells which were adjacent to the Ladysmith washery. 

When Haig closed in 1984 it was put on development work and it was referred to as the 'southside development'. The roadways were driven to quite a large size and the intention was to use vehicles to move the coal.

The area of Haig and Ladysmith pits produced not just coal and Anhydrite but Alabaster, sandstone and other rock as well. Just beyond the quarry sidings at Ladysmith there was an inclined plane or tub run down to the alabaster mine.

[Reorte]

 

12 hours ago, didcot said:

That reminds me, must get some steam coal for my 5" locos. Tried the smokeless we use in our stove, produces to much ash.

 

I mentioned this elsewhere (when the same subject cropped up), but would charcoal work? The conclusion I drew was that it probably burns too hot for a 1:1 locomotive not designed for it, as well as being brittle, but would it work on a smaller one?

[didcot]

I use charcoal to initially get it going and once that's burning well add the coal. It tends to omit sparks alot. I think the coal came from Maxitrak. Its good stuff, burns cleanly and swells to give an incandescent mass in the firebox. Much like on full size engines. My Manor steams well on it and I use the flap with the firehole doors open. Again similar to full size practice. It's a bit more tricky with the quarry Hunslet as its a smaller box and ash from the charcoal can clog the fire.

 

[didcot]

I should add I use lump wood charcoal, not the briquettes. They produce to much ash.

[eastglosmog]

16 hours ago, russ p said:

 

Is there equipment to detect old workings?  I know in the pat there have been methane emissions from the candlestick ignited by lightning so obviously gas and water in haig

The prime method is an accurate plan of the workings on abandonment, as required since the Coal Mines Regulation Act and Metalliferous Mines Regulation Act of 1872 came into force.  The last workings from Haig Colliery should certainly have had them made.  These plans are supposed to be accurate to a few millimeters, but seldom are (underground surveying in coal mines in the nineteenth century was not easy).  (I am aware of some which are 70m out.)  Mine plans are required to “show cautionary zones which draw attention to the existence of the potentially hazardous areas described in regulation 6(1) of the PAIR Regulations (MASHAM ACOP: paragraph 185 and PAIR: regulation 6).”  These are set at 37m from flooded workings.  Consequently, when you are approaching flooded old workings, you drill holes along the seam ahead of yourself (with blowout preventers attached to the drill) until the drill holes intersect the old workings.  You then stop working towards the old workings until you have managed to drain them.

[Victor Vectis]

4 hours ago, didcot said:

< snip > I think the coal came from Maxitrak. Its good stuff, burns cleanly and swells to give an incandescent mass in the firebox. < snip >

 

Sounds like its the proper Welsh stuff from Ffos y Fran. If its very shiny and soft, soft enough to break with your hands leaving lots of dust and small stuff, then I'd put money on it be so.

It burns very well in the attached pic.

Lay in a stock while you still can. The heritage sector is getting quite worried about where it's going to get its coal from in the future.

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Victor Vectis
spelin

[simontaylor484]

On 04/02/2021 at 21:25, russ p said:

 

Is it not in haigs old reserves ?

Has anyone neen in the old drifts. It must be quite a risky plan if haig isn't going to be drained as if the accidentally break into its workings the results would be absolutely catastrophic 

This happened at Lofthouse Colliery in the early 70s

 

As an aside Hargreaves are advertising in Steam Railway For food y fan

[tomparryharry]

Just having a little look at Cwm Llantwit, which is not far from Pontypridd.  When closed in 1986, the known workable reserves were 80,000, 000,000 tons . Little wonder, therefore, that the site wasn't flattened.  The old concept of vertical mining  has given way to slant, or drift mining. Although expensive, opening old mines are perfectly feasible, as long as the returns upon investment match. 

[Victor Vectis]

16 hours ago, simontaylor484 said:

This happened at Lofthouse Colliery in the early 70s

 

The full report of the Lofthouse Disaster here:

 

https://www.nmrs.org.uk/mines-map/accidents-disasters/yorkshire/lofthouse-colliery-disaster-wakefield-1973/

 

IIRC the Precautions Against Inrushes Regs came about due to Lofthouse.

 

Going back to 1950 there was an inrush at Knockshinnock Castle Colliery.

The rescue of the 116 trapped miners was dramatised in a wonderful 1952 film, The Brave Don't Cry.

One of the few (or only?) films with the mining engineer (played by John Gregson) as hero.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Victor Vectis