WCML coach formations circa early Eighties.

[InterCitySpud]

I'm hoping to start work on a large WCML layout later this year but living on a small island in SE Asia means I cant just pop to a shop or exhibition to make easy comparisons. I'm planning to buy in bulk, store and then collect personally, when travel is permitted again, for delicate or expensive items such as rolling stock, therefore I'm throwing it out to your good selves for some opinions regarding whose coaches sit best together.

 

The area I want to model is around the Northamptonshire area and therefore only services into and out of Euston, no cross country traffic and the consists of the time were mixed Mk1,2 and 3a. I don't know the exact date 81/82ish? but I distinctly remember the first MK3as introduced were the MK3 TRUB's to upgrade the catering, running with Mk2e/f's.

 

My last layouts and all rolling stock were packed and sold off in 1989 and at that time I would generally run a typical rake using Lima Mk3s, Airfix Mk2s, Mainline RBR/LimaTRUB and back then a Lima BG (flushglazed!)

 

The period I model is BR blue/grey, although the new APT would be a welcome star turn of the time, I may allow for a little creep into the mid Eighties for an ex-works something to be around but I wont run a mixed rake of liveries, blue/grey all they way!

 

This is where I need some help and opinions as I want to buy two full rakes so 10 Mk2s and 10 mk3s plus catering and brakes, which i can then all mix together as I wish, so what would you buy?

 

Typical rakes of the time would be

 

Euston end - Mk1 BG so Hornby/Bachmann.

First Class - 2 to 5 Mk2/3a or mix so Hornby/Bachmann/Oxford

Catering - TRUB/RBR Oxford/Hornby/Hornby. Sadly Bachmanns RB is not correct for the time without the buffet counter added and windows filled to make an RB(R)

Second Class - 4 to 7 Mk2/3a or mix. Hornby/Bachmann

(Mk2 BSO optional) Hornby/Bachmann

 

I don't want to mix manufacturers for one coach ie Hornby /Bachmann Mk2e/f so the question is do you go with the Oxford Mk3as with Bachmann mk2s or Hornby Mk2sand 3s? What looks best in a full rake? I don't mind about the Hornby not being a Mk3a, the look of the full rake is most important for me, not the small detailing issues.

 

This is not my picture so apologies to the owner but it does demonstrate well, the typical rake of the time.

[Pete the Elaner]

To my knowledge:

 

The TRUBs were Mk3 (HST) stock. The Mk3A buffets were later (RFMs?), with Mk1 buffets hanging on until they arrived.

Mk3As were introduced to the WCML when new in 1975-77. They were not seconded from anywhere, so I don't think your comment about buffets being the 1st Mk3A's in service is correct . I read recently that their length made service at Oxley (Wolverhampton) difficult because their water filling points did not line up with those at the depot.

I believe that because the Mk3As were introduced before 110mph running, Mk2Fs & Mk3As were largely interchangeable so often ran in mixed rakes.

Once 110mph running was permitted it became useful to separate the 125(110) mph Mk3As from the 100mph Mk2Fs, so the former were used on the Glasgow/Preston/Manchester/Liverpool services, with the Wolverhampton & Birmingham services mainly Mk2Fs.

The photo you have added shows a Mk 1 BG then a Mk3A 1st class coach, a Mk2(D-F) standard, a Mk3A buffet then some Mk2(D-F)s (you can tell by the underframe cowling).

I believe the WCML Mk2 fleet was Mk2Fs, with the Mk2D/E coaches being deployed on cross-country & Anglia services.

[InterCitySpud]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

To my knowledge:

 

The TRUBs were Mk3 (HST) stock. The Mk3A buffets were later (RFMs?), with Mk1 buffets hanging on until they arrived.

Mk3As were introduced to the WCML when new in 1975-77. They were not seconded from anywhere, so I don't think your comment about buffets being the 1st Mk3A's in service is correct . I read recently that their length made service at Oxley (Wolverhampton) difficult because their water filling points did not line up with those at the depot.

I believe that because the Mk3As were introduced before 110mph running, Mk2Fs & Mk3As were largely interchangeable so often ran in mixed rakes.

Once 110mph running was permitted it became useful to separate the 125(110) mph Mk3As from the 100mph Mk2Fs, so the former were used on the Glasgow/Preston/Manchester/Liverpool services, with the Wolverhampton & Birmingham services mainly Mk2Fs.

The photo you have added shows a Mk 1 BG then a Mk3A 1st class coach, a Mk2(D-F) standard, a Mk3A buffet then some Mk2(D-F)s (you can tell by the underframe cowling).

I believe the WCML Mk2 fleet was Mk2Fs, with the Mk2D/E coaches being deployed on cross-country & Anglia services.

Thanks Pete, I'm a bit hazy on dates but I'm sure you've seen many of these formations before too!

 

The first MK3 buffets at that time were all the three window variety with first class seating but no classification, yellow band etc, that came much later and always had the buffet counter to the north or to standard class end so I'm sort of guessing on the classification of TRUB, they weren't TRSBs or TRUKs. From photos I think the Oxford Rail version captures the prototype best, the Hornby kitchen windows are too white for me. It has to be Hornby though for the MK1 RBR.  The only other buffet used then into Euston was the MK1 RK? with no seats but that's a Southern Pride project I think!

 

I don't mind if they're MK2e/f just really want to know what to take the plunge with, buy 10 x Bachmann Mk2fs and 10 Oxford Mk3as and mix or just go all Hornby? Which looks the best in a mixed rake? Blue and grey of course, at least I don't have to worry about shades of red white and beige!

[rodent279]

MK1 buffets of various types hung on in WCML service until well into the late 80's.

I think 5 1st class would be a little excessive, the majority of services would be 2-3 MK2/3 firsts.

As for liveries, 86214 & 235 were dolled up with wrap round yellow ends, black window surrounds, large numbers and large  Liverpool-Manchester crests between about 1979 & 83/4, in recognition of"Rocket 150" in May 1980. 87006 was painted in large logo blue, except the blue was actually a dark grey, and 87012 in an early version of Inter City livery, in May 1984, and the Manchester Pullman rakes were all Inter City livery from about 1983.

[woodenhead]

The Mk3a buffets were delivered after the first and second class coaches but before the sleepers, so depending on your chosen period your trains could use either Mk1 buffets or Mk3a buffets, after 1979 the Mk3 buffet began to be seen on trains.

 

I can remember Mk1 buffets in the middle of the Mk3 trains.

 

 

[rodent279]

8 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

The Mk3a buffets were delivered after the first and second class coaches but before the sleepers, so depending on your chosen period your trains could use either Mk1 buffets or Mk3a buffets, after 1979 the Mk3 buffet began to be seen on trains.

 

I can remember Mk1 buffets in the middle of the Mk3 trains.

 

 

Walking from a smooth riding, quiet, air con MK3 into a noisy, rough riding draughty MK1 buffet, rattling along at 90+ was like stepping into another world! Great for us cranks, maybe not so much for normals though.

[InterCitySpud]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

MK1 buffets of various types hung on in WCML service until well into the late 80's.

I think 5 1st class would be a little excessive, the majority of services would be 2-3 MK2/3 firsts.

As for liveries, 86214 & 235 were dolled up with wrap round yellow ends, black window surrounds, large numbers and large  Liverpool-Manchester crests between about 1979 & 83/4, in recognition of"Rocket 150" in May 1980. 87006 was painted in large logo blue, except the blue was actually a dark grey, and 87012 in an early version of Inter City livery, in May 1984, and the Manchester Pullman rakes were all Inter City livery from about 1983.

Thanks, yes I can now remember Novelty also being painted out with yellow ends and logo, must've been 82ish from memory.

 

The Pullman would definitely be something I would be keen to acquire at some point after buying the initial blue grey rakes. Looking at windows, the Oxford Rail seem to be better represent the frame than Hornby on the InterCity livery , although I still remember the older Mk2 grey/blue stock so that would date me up to 1983 so thanks for that, although that's definitely not off the shelf!

 

 

[woodenhead]

Mk3 Pullmans began in 1985, before that the coaches were a purpose built set of Mk2 style coaches - but not like the other Mk2 air cons - in fact they weren't even air conditioned and were vacuum brake only.

[InterCitySpud]

I maybe that weirdo as I also remember the very same, full rake of MK3a and an RBR or RK, I actually liked having my tea being rattled and thrown around then back to the serenity and sliding doors of the MK3!

 

Which ones do I buy? This is the question, Oxford or Hornby? The MK1buffet must be Hornby as its the only option, Mk3s?

[InterCitySpud]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Mk3 Pullmans began in 1985, before that the coaches were a purpose built set of Mk2 style coaches - but not like the other Mk2 air cons - in fact they weren't even air conditioned and were vacuum brake only.

Are there any kits? I remember quite clearly the Grey/ Blue livery, they seemed to have several differences from the MK2s especially the brakes.

[Flood]

4 minutes ago, InterCitySpud said:

 

Which ones do I buy? This is the question, Oxford or Hornby? The MK1buffet must be Hornby as its the only option, Mk3s?

Hornby Mk3s are HST stock with plenum chambers above the vesibules, Oxford are Mk3a with three Roevacs above the vestibules. The underfloor modules are also different. Got to go Oxford.

They do give you both HST and loco hauled electrical connections so one set has to be removed. Don't ask me which is which, when I get chance I'll ask my mate Glenn to take some pictures so I can post them here.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Flood

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, InterCitySpud said:

Are there any kits? I remember quite clearly the Grey/ Blue livery, they seemed to have several differences from the MK2s especially the brakes.

Here is someone doing their own from old Airfix Mk2s

There was also Hurst Models, dont know the current status

http://www.hurstmodels.com/4/4mm_mk2_body.htm

 

 

[InterCitySpud]

1 minute ago, Flood said:

Hornby Mk3s are HST stock with plenum chambers above the vesibules, Oxford are Mk3a with three Roevacs above the vestibules. Got to go Oxford. They do give you both HST and loco hauled electrical connections so one set has to be removed. When I get chance I'll ask my mate Glenn to take some pictures so I can post them here.

I am leaning this way, the Oxfords not only are correct MK3a but do look the part. My concern was in mixing rakes which I obviously want to do and do Hornbys Mk2s look better with their own MK3s mixed, for colour, height and in profile. I would hope to think mixing Oxford with Bachmann would look best but that's what I'm trying to find out by putting out to the great and good here!

 

Current score Oxford 1 Hornby 0 !

[InterCitySpud]

4 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Here is someone doing their own from old Airfix Mk2s

There was also Hurst Models, dont know the current status

http://www.hurstmodels.com/4/4mm_mk2_body.htm

 

 

Thats a lock down project if ever I saw one!

 

Very nice indeed.

[rodent279]

30 minutes ago, InterCitySpud said:

Thanks, yes I can now remember Novelty also being painted out with yellow ends and logo, must've been 82ish from memory.

 

The Pullman would definitely be something I would be keen to acquire at some point after buying the initial blue grey rakes. Looking at windows, the Oxford Rail seem to be better represent the frame than Hornby on the InterCity livery , although I still remember the older Mk2 grey/blue stock so that would date me up to 1983 so thanks for that, although that's definitely not off the shelf!

 

 

It's totally legit to mix blue & grey mk2 Pullman's and IC livery mk2 Pullman's. It took some months to get all into IC livery. As already noted, they were VB only, so a class 87 on the sharp end is a no-no!

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

6 hours ago, InterCitySpud said:

Thanks Pete, I'm a bit hazy on dates but I'm sure you've seen many of these formations before too!

 

The first MK3 buffets at that time were all the three window variety with first class seating but no classification, yellow band etc, that came much later and always had the buffet counter to the north or to standard class end so I'm sort of guessing on the classification of TRUB, they weren't TRSBs or TRUKs. From photos I think the Oxford Rail version captures the prototype best, the Hornby kitchen windows are too white for me. It has to be Hornby though for the MK1 RBR.  The only other buffet used then into Euston was the MK1 RK? with no seats but that's a Southern Pride project I think!

 

I don't mind if they're MK2e/f just really want to know what to take the plunge with, buy 10 x Bachmann Mk2fs and 10 Oxford Mk3as and mix or just go all Hornby? Which looks the best in a mixed rake? Blue and grey of course, at least I don't have to worry about shades of red white and beige!

You've got your Mk3 buffets a bit mixed up. For WCML Mk3a loco-hauled in that era you want an RUB, which has three large bay windows. There were only about 25 rakes with one of those in, and they later (I assume) got reclassified as RFB when the seating area became designated first class rather than "unclassified" but that was after your era, if it happened at all before they were converted to RFM (and the window layout hacked about with!). TRUB, TRUK, TRSB are all HST vehicles, and for my money the most visible difference between the loco hauled and HST vehicles is the roof at the vehicle ends, abd its such a significant difference between loco hauled and HST so you have the choice between Oxford, Oxford or Oxford if modelling a Mk3a rake I'm afraid.

 

[Edwin_m]

45 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Mk3 Pullmans began in 1985, before that the coaches were a purpose built set of Mk2 style coaches - but not like the other Mk2 air cons - in fact they weren't even air conditioned and were vacuum brake only.

Surely these Mk2-ish coaches were air-conditioned from new?  Lack of opening windows certainly suggests this.  

 

I recall there was a Liverpool Pullman in the 70s that was half and half Pullman and standard stock - the latter must have been non-aircon due to the vacuum brakes.  

[InterCitySpud]

1 hour ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

You've got your Mk3 buffets a bit mixed up. For WCML Mk3a loco-hauled in that era you want an RUB, which has three large bay windows. There were only about 25 rakes with one of those in, and they later (I assume) got reclassified as RFB when the seating area became designated first class rather than "unclassified" but that was after your era, if it happened at all before they were converted to RFM (and the window layout hacked about with!). TRUB, TRUK, TRSB are all HST vehicles, and for my money the most visible difference between the loco hauled and HST vehicles is the roof at the vehicle ends, abd its such a significant difference between loco hauled and HST so you have the choice between Oxford, Oxford or Oxford if modelling a Mk3a rake I'm afraid.

 

Cheers for clearing that up, I am leaning towards the Oxford offerings despite the mixed reviews, they seem from all the pictures i have studied to have that edge on Hornbys offerings anyway despite the differences between them being HST or Loco hauled. For me, the profile is the most important factor as that cant be amended. I'm concentrating on early Eighties and certainly when only the RUBs were in service.

 

Next question would be which MK2s sit best with the Oxford Mk3as?

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

Surely these Mk2-ish coaches were air-conditioned from new?  Lack of opening windows certainly suggests this.  

 

I recall there was a Liverpool Pullman in the 70s that was half and half Pullman and standard stock - the latter must have been non-aircon due to the vacuum brakes.  

I was confused, I was thinking pressure ventilated was different to air con - they were pressure ventilated air con

https://sremg.org.uk/coach/coupe/coupe_se09.pdf

 

[Bomag]

The references to the Mk1 catering coaches may help with clarification.

 

RB had limited body changes when refurbished to RBR, unless you are really picky then you can use a RB/RBR without a problem. They always had a buffet counter. 17xx vehicles were riddled with asbestos so were withdrawn drawing the 80's whereas the 16xx lasted in bulk until displaced by RFMs

RBK/RBR  ex RFs  1618-1643 and 1773-1780 lasted until 1981-82 but are unlike anything RTR

RBR (exRU), 19xx, were the ones built without a buffet and the RTR model needs significant work. Some RU already had buffet counters added, either as a RUB or RBs. Only 4 RUB are reported to have air brakes and none were converted to RBR. 17 of the 18 RBs were converted to RBR along with 5 RU 1944-1948. Only these 5 had buffet counters reported as being added when covered to RBR.

RK only 3 are listed as being air braked and had gone by September 1980.

RKB (full kitchen with buffet), 15xx, were much more common on the WCML with 7 lasting long enough to receive Intercity executive livery.

 

As mentioned the RUB (10001-10028) are similar, but not the same as ,TRUB (they have the single roof ventilator as HST stock rather than the three on FO/TSO). Irrespective of minor body /underframe issues the red stripe is much shallower on the RUB compared to TRUB.  RUBs were reclassified as RFB in 1986, I have not seen any photo with them as a RFB in blue grey (someone will now produce one!).

 

As alluded to above there was a very much mix and match use of Mk2f/Mk3a in the early 1980's. If you can see the Michael Palin Great Railway journey from 1980 the first section has got some great footage of WCML stock. Please ignore that fact he was at Rainhill in May, behind Flying Scotsmen in June (Man Vic to York), NYMR in the Spring (the daffs are out) and Edinburgh in August. It was only in the mid 1980's did the Mk3s get increasingly allocated to only Willesden Brent and sets were Mk3a or Mk2f for the day coaches.

[Bomag]

4 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

Surely these Mk2-ish coaches were air-conditioned from new?  Lack of opening windows certainly suggests this.  

 

I recall there was a Liverpool Pullman in the 70s that was half and half Pullman and standard stock - the latter must have been non-aircon due to the vacuum brakes.  

 

Definitely the Mk2 Pullmans were air-con from the start. I think they used a early, very basic, version of the Stones system which would only work with ac electrics (presumably the variation in supply from a diesel would trip them out). After they were replaced on the normal Pullman services and were on Charter services they were air braked (when named after lakes) and later on I believe the a/c system was modified to work with alternator fitted diesel ETH systems (in effect mainstream 47/4s).

[InterCitySpud]

1 hour ago, Bomag said:

The references to the Mk1 catering coaches may help with clarification.

 

RB had limited body changes when refurbished to RBR, unless you are really picky then you can use a RB/RBR without a problem. They always had a buffet counter. 17xx vehicles were riddled with asbestos so were withdrawn drawing the 80's whereas the 16xx lasted in bulk until displaced by RFMs

RBK/RBR  ex RFs  1618-1643 and 1773-1780 lasted until 1981-82 but are unlike anything RTR

RBR (exRU), 19xx, were the ones built without a buffet and the RTR model needs significant work. Some RU already had buffet counters added, either as a RUB or RBs. Only 4 RUB are reported to have air brakes and none were converted to RBR. 17 of the 18 RBs were converted to RBR along with 5 RU 1944-1948. Only these 5 had buffet counters reported as being added when covered to RBR.

RK only 3 are listed as being air braked and had gone by September 1980.

RKB (full kitchen with buffet), 15xx, were much more common on the WCML with 7 lasting long enough to receive Intercity executive livery.

 

As mentioned the RUB (10001-10028) are similar, but not the same as ,TRUB (they have the single roof ventilator as HST stock rather than the three on FO/TSO). Irrespective of minor body /underframe issues the red stripe is much shallower on the RUB compared to TRUB.  RUBs were reclassified as RFB in 1986, I have not seen any photo with them as a RFB in blue grey (someone will now produce one!).

 

As alluded to above there was a very much mix and match use of Mk2f/Mk3a in the early 1980's. If you can see the Michael Palin Great Railway journey from 1980 the first section has got some great footage of WCML stock. Please ignore that fact he was at Rainhill in May, behind Flying Scotsmen in June (Man Vic to York), NYMR in the Spring (the daffs are out) and Edinburgh in August. It was only in the mid 1980's did the Mk3s get increasingly allocated to only Willesden Brent and sets were Mk3a or Mk2f for the day coaches.

Brilliant. Thank you for that clarification.

 

I must admit I've seen the start of Michael Palins journey out of Euston many times as that was probably about the time of my heyday trainspotting! There's a clip of Wolverton where i used to visit just for the thrill of that curve, ACs at full pelt through the old station were great fun. Just a shame the old waiting rooms are lost forever, just like the refreshment breaks!

 

So the consensus is I go with Oxford for all my MK3 stock, Hornby RBR and to complete the set I need to convert the Bachmann which I've seen done here and an RKB, I saw many at the time mostly with MK3 FO for full catering I guess. I think that's a Southern Pride kit?

 

I may as well go Bachmann for my MK2s.

 

Does anyone have some pictures or a link to some Oxford Mk3s close coupled to Bachmann Mk2s? Blue and grey preferably, that would be a great help!

[InterCitySpud]

One thing I have noticed somebody may help clear up.

 

On the Oxford RUB the red catering stripe stops in the centre of the coach, Im convinced it used to go over the last half window of the corridor?

[hexagon789]

2 hours ago, InterCitySpud said:

One thing I have noticed somebody may help clear up.

 

On the Oxford RUB the red catering stripe stops in the centre of the coach, Im convinced it used to go over the last half window of the corridor?

The Oxford representation is correct, the red stripe stopped mid-coach. I think your probably thinking of HST TRUBs where the red stripe finishes where the seating started.

 

17 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

To my knowledge:

 

The TRUBs were Mk3 (HST) stock. The Mk3A buffets were later (RFMs?), with Mk1 buffets hanging on until they arrived.

Mk3As were introduced to the WCML when new in 1975-77. They were not seconded from anywhere, so I don't think your comment about buffets being the 1st Mk3A's in service is correct . I read recently that their length made service at Oxley (Wolverhampton) difficult because their water filling points did not line up with those at the depot.

I believe that because the Mk3As were introduced before 110mph running, Mk2Fs & Mk3As were largely interchangeable so often ran in mixed rakes.

Once 110mph running was permitted it became useful to separate the 125(110) mph Mk3As from the 100mph Mk2Fs, so the former were used on the Glasgow/Preston/Manchester/Liverpool services, with the Wolverhampton & Birmingham services mainly Mk2Fs.

The photo you have added shows a Mk 1 BG then a Mk3A 1st class coach, a Mk2(D-F) standard, a Mk3A buffet then some Mk2(D-F)s (you can tell by the underframe cowling).

I believe the WCML Mk2 fleet was Mk2Fs, with the Mk2D/E coaches being deployed on cross-country & Anglia services.

Generally the in earliest Mk3 days the Mk3s were booked to run en bloc but with Mk1 full brakes and catering vehicles, from about 1979/80 the sets tended to be booked as more mixed formations. Certainly use of a Mk2F FO was usual in Glasgow sets in the early 1980s between First Class Mk3s and the catering vehicle being used as the restaurant car and often one Mk2F TSO would appear at the end.

 

110mph came from May 1984, at first just two diagrams but from May 1985 all Euston-Glasgow were timed for 110mph so the sets became all Mk3 bar a full brake.

 

110mph running was not extended to other WCML services until May 1989.

Edited February 27, 2021 by hexagon789

[rodent279]

3 hours ago, Bomag said:

 

A minor bugbear of mine, but nothing personal, is if people are going to start using ETS (when ETH is fully understood) is not to use 'ETS supply' as this is tautology - it would mean ' electric train supply supply'. 

Agree. It's a bit like OHLE equipment.