S&DJR Coach Liveries - Lined & Unlined?

[SDJR7F88]

Morning all.

 

I'm currently in the process of repainting a couple of coaches into S&DJR Prussian Blue and was wondering if anyone had any info on the styles of liveries used. I'm very familiar with the wonderful lined out design ( though, I'm holding out for Hatton's to replicate this on their 'Genesis' coaches, all being well), but have seen a number of layouts feature a slightly more 'Simpler' livery, which I guess is a later variant? 'Chewton Mendip' (as seen in the screen shots below from one of my videos of the layout at various exhibitions) features stock in the livery, which is look I wish to go for.

 

The coaches in question I'm currently painter are the new Hornby 'Generic' 4 & 6 wheelers (so far from prototypical, but will hopefully look the part). So far I've painted the ends black (though just I've just spotted they are blue in the images), though I might stay with the black rather than stripping them again. 

 

Any info would be much appreciated. 

 

[phil_sutters]

I haven't many photos of S&D stock in later years. The official photos I have are mainly of carriages with nice new fully-lined paint jobs, which I would think are early. This one shows how a weathered lined coach looks. The lining is almost invisible. I would be interested to find out if unlined stock was introduced, perhaps during WW1.

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by phil_sutters
Corrected caption on photo

[RailWest]

Before I were to base any model on anything seen on another layout, my first question would be - on what did they base that? If they have a source for proof of an unlined livery, then hopefully they can tell you that so you can check for yourself.

[Steamport Southport]

Any books which would have that information in?

 

I know the wagons are in the Southern Wagons books and some info in the MR books, but I can't recall seeing the S&DJR coaches anywhere. Apart from some articles in old model railway magazines (MRN or MRC) which had drawings and some vague details.

 

 

Jason

Edited March 2, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[Compound2632]

Highbridge practice for passenger stock mirrors Midland Railway practice. I'd be pretty confident that passenger carriages remained fully lined-out Midland style right up to 1930 (and beyond). After all, the LMS did not give up full lining-out until 1934. What is not clear is whether the lining-out of the solebars was discontinued at the same time as on the Midland, 1902 (leaving them plain red, then black from 1912). The only "simplification" to the lining of coach sides was the move from gold leaf to chrome yellow from about 1912. There is some evidence for plain blue ends in later years, whereas formerly the beading was painted black but not lined out (same as the Midland, again). 

 

9 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Any books which would have that information in?

 

I know the wagons are in the Southern Wagons books and some info in the MR books, but I can't recall seeing the S&DJR coaches anywhere. Apart from some articles in old model railway magazines (MRN or MRC) which had drawings and some vague details.

 

My references are:

G. Dow & R.E. Lacy, Midland Style (HMRS, 1975) pp. 124-125

R. Garner, The Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway Locomotive and Rolling Stock Registers 1886-1930 (The Somerset & Dorset Railway Trust, 2000).

 

The goods stock was divided between the two owning companies in 1914 and much continued in use, those going to the LSWR receiving Southern diagrams in due course and hence get into Southern Wagons Vol. 1. When the carriage stock was divided up in 1930, the Southern withdrew all its share of the 6-wheelers more or less immediately. It appears that Southern rolling stock records survive (where?) but Midland / LMS records were largely destroyed through the combined efforts of the Luftwaffe and BR Management.

 

[SDJR7F88]

51 minutes ago, RailWest said:

Before I were to base any model on anything seen on another layout, my first question would be - on what did they base that? If they have a source for proof of an unlined livery, then hopefully they can tell you that so you can check for yourself.

Hence the reason for this topic. To see if anyone has any more info on the subject

[Compound2632]

What date are you aiming for? That will have implications for the solebar/headstock and end painting.  

[SDJR7F88]

17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Highbridge practice for passenger stock mirrors Midland Railway practice. I'd be pretty confident that passenger carriages remained fully lined-out Midland style right up to 1930 (and beyond). After all, the LMS did not give up full lining-out until 1934. What is not clear is whether the lining-out of the solebars was discontinued at the same time as on the Midland, 1902 (leaving them plain red, then black from 1912). The only "simplification" to the lining of coach sides was the move from gold leaf to chrome yellow from about 1912. There is some evidence for plain blue ends in later years, whereas formerly the beading was painted black but not lined out (same as the Midland, again)

Thanks for the info, so am I right in thinking that yellow with black beading would be best?

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, SDJR7F88 said:

Thanks for the info, so am I right in thinking that yellow with black beading would be best?

 

What date?

[SDJR7F88]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

What date are you aiming for? That will have implications for the solebar/headstock and end painting.  

Well, no particular date, just something that will sit nicely behind my 1P, 3F, 4F ect, though I understand most if not all of the 4 and 6 wheel stock was gone by then. Its just a short rake of Hornby Generic coaches, so not going for accuracy, just something that looks right

[SDJR7F88]

10 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

I haven't many photos of S&D stock in later years. The official photos I have are mainly of carriages with nice new fully-lined paint jobs, which I would think are early. This one shows how a weathered lined coach looks. The lining is almost invisible. I would be interested to find out if unlined stock was introduced, perhaps during WW1.

Thanks for that. One of the images I was looking at for reference. Tommy eye it looks like it's making lining all together.

[PenrithBeacon]

I have always thought that S&DJR lining was the same MR. Have I got that wrong?

[Compound2632]

Just now, SDJR7F88 said:

Well, no particular date, just something that will sit nicely behind my 1P, 3F, 4F ect, though I understand most if not all of the 4 and 6 wheel stock was gone by then. Its just a short rake of Hornby Generic coaches, so not going for accuracy, just something that looks right

 

OK so 1920s. Yes, yellow lining to the black beading, remembering not around the quarter lights, which have varnished wood frames - the bolection mouldings Hornby have not represented owing to their following Stroudley carriages. Look at the restored carriage. Ends may have the beading painted black or may be plain blue. I suspect headstocks and solebars may be black, but blue could have survived - these old carriages may not have been repainted, just re-varnished. (The restored carriage is not on its original underframe but on a later steel underframe.)

 

2 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I have always thought that S&DJR lining was the same MR. Have I got that wrong?

 

No, that is exactly right. The only difference was the base colour. The only question is, at what point did Highbridge follow Derby in simplifying the painting of underframes.

[PenrithBeacon]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

...

The only question is, at what point did Highbridge follow Derby in simplifying the painting of underframes.

Bearing in mind the eccentricities of the railway, best of luck with that 

[Compound2632]

Just now, PenrithBeacon said:

Bearing in mind the eccentricities of the railway, best of luck with that 

 

Highbridge Works appears to have been an efficiently-run outfit under the management of a succession of Derby men - most of whom "went native" and fought the Joint's corner arguing for more powerful engines.

 

Ref.

C.G. Maggs, Highbridge in its Heyday (Oakwood Press, 1986).

[Steamport Southport]

47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

My references are:

G. Dow & R.E. Lacy, Midland Style (HMRS, 1975) pp. 124-125

R. Garner, The Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway Locomotive and Rolling Stock Registers 1886-1930 (The Somerset & Dorset Railway Trust, 2000).

 

The goods stock was divided between the two owning companies in 1914 and much continued in use, those going to the LSWR receiving Southern diagrams in due course and hence get into Southern Wagons Vol. 1. When the carriage stock was divided up in 1930, the Southern withdrew all its share of the 6-wheelers more or less immediately. It appears that Southern rolling stock records survive (where?) but Midland / LMS records were largely destroyed through the combined efforts of the Luftwaffe and BR Management.

 

 

Thanks. I've got the first one somewhere. And most of the other relevant books.

 

I've had a quick look at the trust's website for the S&D register book.

 

I was just wondering whether there was an obscure book such as An Illustrated History Of S&DJR Carriages that I've missed. Or something from Oakwood.

 

Seemed the right thread to ask and couldn't see much else on this part of the forum. It's just for something to go with the 1P 0-4-4T. So far I've found a couple of van and horse box kits.

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I was just wondering whether there was an obscure book such as An Illustrated History Of S&DJR Carriages that I've missed.

 

Alas no. But between the various books mentioned and also:

 

S. Austin, Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway - a view from the past (Ian Allan, 1999)

 

most of the extant photos have been published - mostly Derby negatives; some prints ate in the HMRS photo collection.

 

Actually, there is a kit for the single most numerous type of S&DJR carriage, the 31 ft 6-wheel 5-compartment third, of which 15 or 16 were built by Oldbury and 20 by Cravens in 1890/91 and another half-dozen or so by Highbridge, since these were identical to the Midland D493 third, which is available as a plastic kit by Slaters in 7 mm scale (and was in 4 mm scale and may return) and an etched kit by 51L/Wizard in 4 mm scale, and possibly others.

[Paul Cram]

Blacksmith produced 6 wheel coaches and also some bogie vehicles. I have some in my stash.

[Compound2632]

Just now, Paul Cram said:

Blacksmith produced

 

... [enough said]

 

1 minute ago, Paul Cram said:

I have some in my stash.

 

Lucky you!

[Steamport Southport]

I know about the six wheelers. It was mostly the 46 footers I was thinking of (I think the composites were 48ft).

 

Drawings were in MRN in the 1970s and early 1980s. Just thought there might have been more information about.

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

37 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I know about the six wheelers. It was mostly the 46 footers I was thinking of (I think the composites were 48ft).

 

Drawings were in MRN in the 1970s and early 1980s. Just thought there might have been more information about.

 

Yes, those were the subject of Blacksmith kits. All were 46 ft except the last-built, No. 28 of 1913, which was 48 ft. It was also the last survivor, being rebuilt as a driving trailer for motor train operation of the Wells branch.

[SDJR7F88]

Thanks for all the info. Going to have a little tester to see how I get on hand lining on a test piece later. If all else fails, I'll finish them in unlined blue similar ventilated parcels van above, with some suitable weathering. 

Callum

[Compound2632]

Places pedant hat on head.

 

Both the vans - the model one and the square-panelled one in Phil's photo, are fruit and milk vans. Parcels traffic would be carried in the guard's brake. The S&DJR had no parcels vans as such. In the days of the 6-wheelers, a common formation was brake / third / first / third / brake, providing ample accommodation for parcels traffic. The bogie third brakes also had ample parcels space. 

 

Replaces pedant hat on peg. (I keep it handy by the computer...)

[SDJR7F88]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Places pedant hat on head.

 

Both the vans - the model one and the square-panelled one in Phil's photo, are fruit and milk vans. Parcels traffic would be carried in the guard's brake. The S&DJR had no parcels vans as such. In the days of the 6-wheelers, a common formation was brake / third / first / third / brake, providing ample accommodation for parcels traffic. The bogie third brakes also had ample parcels space. 

 

Replaces pedant hat on peg. (I keep it handy by the computer...)

Once again, thanks for the info. Though was referring to the engineering above (just going of the description listed) 

 

22 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

 

 

[Compound2632]

50 minutes ago, SDJR7F88 said:

Once again, thanks for the info. Though was referring to the engineering above (just going of the description listed) 

 

With apologies to @phil_sutters, it's mis-described there. The Derby C&W Lot Book entry reads "Lot 523 Milk Vans for SDJR"; the diagram, D419, for the Midland ones says "5 ton fruit and milk van" and the drawing (No. 1405) is entitled "Fruit & Milk Van". If you were to ask of Dave Harris at the Midland Railway Study Centre, you could have a high-res scan of that drawing. (A donation to the Study Centre's costs would be very much appreciated.) All information that is readily accessible, though to be fair to Phil, more so now than it was when he obtained the photo. 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Compound2632