CV 29 Reverse Direction

[Butler]

Hi

I am having trouble changing direction on only I Loco. According to Nigelcliffs ‘tool’ I need cv29 value 3 which has worked for everything else. 

Question is Can this be done on the maintrack, without messing up any other locos ? It’s a nuisance keep removing to service track??

Thanks

B

[Oldddudders]

Most, but maybe not all, DCC Command Stations can POM (Program On the Main) but you use a different setting from that for the programming track. If done correctly, there is no risk whatever to other locos or accessories on and about the layout, because you dial up the loco first, so are only addressing it, not the layout as a whole. Check the instructions for your DCC system. . 

[Dagworth]

14 minutes ago, Butler said:

Hi

I am having trouble changing direction on only I Loco. According to Nigelcliffs ‘tool’ I need cv29 value 3 which has worked for everything else. 

Question is Can this be done on the maintrack, without messing up any other locos ? It’s a nuisance keep removing to service track??

Thanks

B

If that one loco won’t behave with CV 29 set to 3 then try setting it to 2. 
 

Andi

[Butler]

2 hours ago, Butler said:

Hi

I am having trouble changing direction on only I Loco. According to Nigelcliffs ‘tool’ I need cv29 value 3 which has worked for everything else. 

Question is Can this be done on the maintrack, without messing up any other locos ? It’s a nuisance keep removing to service track??

Thanks

B

 

2 hours ago, Butler said:

Hi

I am having trouble changing direction on only I Loco. According to Nigelcliffs ‘tool’ I need cv29 value 3 which has worked for everything else. 

Question is Can this be done on the maintrack, without messing up any other locos ? It’s a nuisance keep removing to service track??

Thanks

B

Hi thanks, I thought that you could not write to a loco on the main, without writing to all locos on the track? So are you saying that just changing a cv value won’t affect anything else ? I have a Dynamis Ultima, and you can choose main or service tracks.

B

Edited March 10, 2021 by Butler
Finger trouble, seem to have pasted the post twice again.

[GoingUnderground]

2 hours ago, Butler said:

Hi

I am having trouble changing direction on only I Loco. According to Nigelcliffs ‘tool’ I need cv29 value 3 which has worked for everything else. 

Question is Can this be done on the maintrack, without messing up any other locos ? It’s a nuisance keep removing to service track??

Thanks

B

What do you mean "...keep removing it to service track"? You change CV29 once and that should be it, just like swapping the wires to the motor over. The direction of travel/orientation with respect to the direction of travel on the DCC controller is permanently reversed.

 

Do you actually mean that the loco won't change direction when you change direction on the controller? If that's the case then continually changing CV29 to reverse the loco isn't the answer.

 

Or do you mean that you change CV29, and the orientation vis-a-vis the controller is changed, but when you go to use the loco again it has reverted back to its old orientation?

 

What model is it?

What make and model of decoder is installed?

Was the decoder a factory fit from new, or did you install it yourself?

What make and model of DCC controller are you using?

[Nigelcliffe]

45 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

What do you mean "...keep removing it to service track"? You change CV29 once and that should be it, just like swapping the wires to the motor over. The direction of travel/orientation with respect to the direction of travel on the DCC controller is permanently reversed.

 

 

There is so much confusion here, that I'm not sure where the problem lies....  However, here goes: 

 

Problem 1 - the Dynamis Handset.   It has horizontal direction indicators and horizontal arrows on the direction button.   That means the user sees "left" and "right" as directions,  which is a bit like an old DC controller.     

But, DCC doesn't have "left" or "right",  it has "forwards" and "backwards".  Those directions are the direction of a locomotive from the footplate  (DMUs/EMUs do have a front and rear, its just not always obvious).   
Made slightly worse as the Dynamis manual (the one I looked at) doesn't even indicate which arrow corresponds to "forwards". 

So, is the need to keep changing direction due to confusion over what direction means on a Dynamis handset? 

 

Problem 2 - not understanding programming terms.   

 

Programming on the Main (Operations Mode) is always addressed to a specific locomotive, and cannot change other locomotives.   

 

But, if the system swaps a single rear output between Service Mode (programming track) and Operations Mode (Programming on the main), there is a danger of user-error and accidentally going into Service Mode on the entire layout.  (Original Dynamis did this, as does the NCE PowerCab).   For such systems there are add-ons which can be fitted to reduce chances of a user-error. 

 

Most better systems have separate programming track and main line outputs, so the user-error should be removed.  

 

There are a few cheapy systems which don't implement Programming on the Main  (eg. Bachmann EZ trainset controller).  

 

 

 

Problem 3 - may be related to "consisting".  If using Consists, the consist will have a direction.  If two units are brought together in different orientations (eg. couple rear of unit 1 to rear of unit 2), then the second unit has to be given a direction setting to indicate it has joined the consist in the reversed direction.   

The Advanced Consist standards supports this,  but whether the Dynamis explains it adequately (I think the manual is far from clear, and may be wrong in its descriptions), or the user understands is another matter.   

 

 

 

[GoingUnderground]

20 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

There is so much confusion here, that I'm not sure where the problem lies....  However, here goes: 

 

Problem 1 - the Dynamis Handset.   It has horizontal direction indicators and horizontal arrows on the direction button.   That means the user sees "left" and "right" as directions,  which is a bit like an old DC controller.     

But, DCC doesn't have "left" or "right",  it has "forwards" and "backwards".  Those directions are the direction of a locomotive from the footplate  (DMUs/EMUs do have a front and rear, its just not always obvious).   
Made slightly worse as the Dynamis manual (the one I looked at) doesn't even indicate which arrow corresponds to "forwards". 

So, is the need to keep changing direction due to confusion over what direction means on a Dynamis handset? 

 

Problem 2 - not understanding programming terms.   

 

Programming on the Main (Operations Mode) is always addressed to a specific locomotive, and cannot change other locomotives.   

 

But, if the system swaps a single rear output between Service Mode (programming track) and Operations Mode (Programming on the main), there is a danger of user-error and accidentally going into Service Mode on the entire layout.  (Original Dynamis did this, as does the NCE PowerCab).   For such systems there are add-ons which can be fitted to reduce chances of a user-error. 

 

Most better systems have separate programming track and main line outputs, so the user-error should be removed.  

 

There are a few cheapy systems which don't implement Programming on the Main  (eg. Bachmann EZ trainset controller).  

 

 

 

Problem 3 - may be related to "consisting".  If using Consists, the consist will have a direction.  If two units are brought together in different orientations (eg. couple rear of unit 1 to rear of unit 2), then the second unit has to be given a direction setting to indicate it has joined the consist in the reversed direction.   

The Advanced Consist standards supports this,  but whether the Dynamis explains it adequately (I think the manual is far from clear, and may be wrong in its descriptions), or the user understands is another matter.   

 

 

 

Nigel,

 

Do you know what the OP's problem is, because from his description I don't. I was only trying to get him to explain it better, as to me his comments don't make sense. but obviously I got it wrong. But you should be replying to the OP, not me as it's not my problem?

[Pete the Elaner]

19 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

Nigel,

 

Do you know what the OP's problem is, because from his description I don't. I was only trying to get him to explain it better, as to me his comments don't make sense. but obviously I got it wrong. But you should be replying to the OP, not me as it's not my problem?

 

I am, pretty sure Dagworth answered it.

The way I read it, Butler's original problem was that the loco's directions were reversed & he did not want the hassle of using the program track, so was assuming CV29 was initially set to 2.

But if it was already odd, then setting it to 3 will not change its direction.

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, GoingUnderground said:

Nigel,

 

Do you know what the OP's problem is, because from his description I don't. I was only trying to get him to explain it better, as to me his comments don't make sense. but obviously I got it wrong. But you should be replying to the OP, not me as it's not my problem?

 

Keith,  No I don't know what the problem is.   I'm combining fragments of partial information from multiple threads, which indicate a lot of confusion.  

 

- Nigel

[Butler]

Hi

look I’m sorry if I havnt been clear. Can I explain:

in another thread, Nigelcliff explained to me very kindly that if you wish to reverse the orientation of the loco in line with the controller, ie on my Dynamis, left arrow makes train go left etc, that by ( looking at his calculator that gives me value 3) changing cv29 to 3 will do this, and it has. I had 20 odd locos all with different directions set, so I have changed the wrong ones doing just that, and it works!

so now, in order to free up the Rosta, I have programmed several emu’s to use the same address, and again it worked.

but 1 emu group, a 4 Cep, coupled to an mlv, go in opposite directions, if I reverse the mlv physically it’s fine, but I want it the other way round, because it runs better. But every time I change the cv as above, on the service track, , it remains going the opposite direction to the 4 Cep, which has the same address. 

My question was then, while I’m mucking about trying to get it as I want, it would be easier to do it on the main track.

can I do this without changing any other loco. Obviously if the 4 cep has the same address it would reverse as well.

this is not getting any clearer is it? 

It seems as if the mlv is just not accepting the change to cv29, value 3. Should I try 2?

sorry if I’m a total dinosaur, I’m getting there with this stuff, and this forum, and you very kind , patient people have taught me loads.

B

[Pete the Elaner]

5 minutes ago, Butler said:

 

It seems as if the mlv is just not accepting the change to cv29, value 3. Should I try 2?

 

 

Yes, definitely.

 

Setting CV29 to 3 does not simply change direction. It sets the normal direction to mean tender/bunker/no.2 end first. If it is already set to 3 (or any other odd value), then setting it to 3 will not affect the direction.

 

The program track is useful to read CVs, so you know what to change before you change it.

 

CV29 also does some other things too. It sounds like you will have seen these in the CV table. By simply setting it to 3, you could have turned off 28/128 speeds, DC operation*, Railcom, Complex Speed curve, Long loco address or a combination of any of these. It is a bit too late to find out now because you have already changed it.

 

*DC operation is usually on by default, so you will have switched this off.

 

[Nigelcliffe]

47 minutes ago, Butler said:

Hi

look I’m sorry if I havnt been clear. Can I explain:

in another thread, Nigelcliff explained to me very kindly that if you wish to reverse the orientation of the loco in line with the controller, ie on my Dynamis, left arrow makes train go left etc, that by ( looking at his calculator that gives me value 3) changing cv29 to 3 will do this, and it has. I had 20 odd locos all with different directions set, so I have changed the wrong ones doing just that, and it works!

so now, in order to free up the Rosta, I have programmed several emu’s to use the same address, and again it worked.

 

OK,  so first issue is defining "forwards" in terms of the controller handset, rather than the locomotive.   In DCC, "forwards" refers to a locomotive.   On a steam loco its usually obvious which is "forwards".   On an EMU its a little more subtle, but there will be a "front" (sometimes called Cab-1) and a "back".     The arrows on the controller are changing the direction between forwards and reverse.   They don't refer to left-right on a layout. 

 

It is possible to turn all locos around so that "forwards" is "left"  (or "right" if you prefer).   And its possible to set locos so their "forwards" is "left" even when its the "wrong" end of the actual model.   

 

( I think this is a mixture of  two problems:   The traditional thinking of a DC layout, where left-right does make sense, the track is set to send a locomotive to the left, or the track is set to send the loco to the right.    And the not very good bit of User Interface design in the Dynamis handset).  

 

 

Quote

 

but 1 emu group, a 4 Cep, coupled to an mlv, go in opposite directions, if I reverse the mlv physically it’s fine, but I want it the other way round, because it runs better. But every time I change the cv as above, on the service track, , it remains going the opposite direction to the 4 Cep, which has the same address. 

My question was then, while I’m mucking about trying to get it as I want, it would be easier to do it on the main track.

can I do this without changing any other loco. Obviously if the 4 cep has the same address it would reverse as well.

 

 

If this is two power units, each with the same address, then yes you could set them to different direction values.  But you will have to remove one, or the other, from the track before changing one of them.  Otherwise your instruction to the address goes to both units (because they have the same address).   Once set, they should stay set.   

 

There is a means to adjust each of the two units independently, by putting them in an "advanced consist".  But that will cost you more slots in the Dynamis' roster space,  and lack of roster space seems to be causing problems.     
( I'm becoming convinced that the Dynamis is half of the problem with this layout; most other systems don't have limits for internal rosters;  you just key in the address of a loco/emu and drive it, there being no limit on the potential number of locos sat waiting for use on the layout.  ).  

 

 

 

As Pete says,  the direction bit in CV29 swaps the direction of travel.  It means one value or another.  If the loco goes the "wrong" way, then the other value is needed for that loco.   But with two locos on the track with the same address, must remove one if trying to change the direction of only one of the pair of locos.  

 

 

- Nigel

[Butler]

Well thank you all, yes by putting in 29 v2 it has achieved  what I wanted. So now I’ve changed it, if I wanted to change it back again , I would use v3? 

[AndrueC]

Or if the decoder can be fitted either way round try reversing it

 

As for the CVs it's pretty easy (says the programmer). All you're doing is flipping bit 0. Odd numbers go in one direction, even go in the other.

[Butler]

Very helpful, and yes, I am becoming concerned about the Dynamis. As someone said despite quoting 40 locos on the rosta, it seems to be only 30! 

So what would I choose if I were to change the entire system?

likes about the Dynamis:

i like the joystick type of  control for the speed,  I would find it hard to go to rotary control now.

display is clear, well lit. Nice and light to use, hang around the neck etc

once you get familiar with program method it’s quite simple 

Does have service and POM facility.

Dislikes

Limited rosta space

Not easy to flick between addresses quickly, would be nice to have a group of locos in ‘ todays’ running to make switching easier.

continual problems with ‘ reset loco list’ appearing which often messes up things and always deconsists locos.

any suggestions , I’ve not really hunted around as yet.

B

 

 

[GoingUnderground]

1 hour ago, Butler said:

Well thank you all, yes by putting in 29 v2 it has achieved  what I wanted. So now I’ve changed it, if I wanted to change it back again , I would use v3? 

Yes.

 

CV29 controls several features, so in my view it is always better to read it first so that you know its current value and what it was doing before you start mucking around with it.

 

As regards direction of travel, there is a simpler way if all thatf you want to do is change the direction of travel:

1. Read CV29

2. If it is an odd number 1, 3, 5, 7, etc subtract 1 and write the result to CV29. Thus if it was 3 then 3 - 1 = 2 and that's what you write to CV29.

3. But if CV29 is an even number 2, 4, 6, 8 etc when you read it, you add 1 and write that number to CV29, Thus if CV29 was 2, add 1, making 3 and that's what you need to write to CV29.

 

But I'm pleased for you that it's sorted.