Helston Revisited

[Neal Ball]

44 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

. How do you apply such things in a controlled way though?

 

Tweezers!

[Graham T]

I sprinkle a little WS blended turf in amongst the grass layers.  For scatter to represent wild flowers, I apply hairspray to the area, then take just a very small pinch of scatter between finger and thumb, and rub them together to spread it out.

 

[Gilbert]

7 minutes ago, Graham T said:

I sprinkle a little WS blended turf in amongst the grass layers.  For scatter to represent wild flowers, I apply hairspray to the area, then take just a very small pinch of scatter between finger and thumb, and rub them together to spread it out.

 

I do something very similar.

[TrevorP1]

4 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

What about scatters in general? - I plan to use them on in the yard area etc (see ash above) but had not thought of doing this over the grass except perhaps people talk of little dabs of glue with coloured scatter to mimic flower heads. How do you apply such things in a controlled way though?

I also use WS blended turf exactly as others have suggested. I find it invaluable . The real soil just takes the ‘edge’ off of the static grass. The idea is not mine though - it came from the builder of the extremely large 0 gauge layout… Simon ???? Sorry the name of the layout escapes me at the moment.

[Andy Keane]

I see you can get two colours of WS blended turf: Earth Blend Blended Turf and Green Blend Blended Turf. Which colour do people prefer (maybe the earth colour plays the role of the dried soil Trevor uses?). Also is the shaker jar worth getting? Finally you guys say you mix it in but the web pages seem to suggest putting it down as a base layer before the grass. I can see there are lots of options and while I have mucked around with buildings and rolling stock for nigh on fifty years this is all new to me.

Andy

[TrevorP1]

7 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I see you can get two colours of WS blended turf: Earth Blend Blended Turf and Green Blend Blended Turf. Which colour do people prefer (maybe the earth colour plays the role of the dried soil Trevor uses?). Also is the shaker jar worth getting? Finally you guys say you mix it in but the web pages seem to suggest putting it down as a base layer before the grass. I can see there are lots of options and while I have mucked around with buildings and rolling stock for nigh on fifty years this is all new to me.

Andy

For me - and we’ll all have different ideas/opinions - when sprinkled on freshly applied static grass the earth will go down between the fibres and create a more natural appearance to rough grass areas. It has to be finely sifted though, almost dust.

I generally apply it with my thumb and forefinger in a very random fashion. Gently tapping the side of a full teaspoon also does it but it’s easy to apply too much that way.

 

I usually use the blended turf to add more texture/different weeds etc at a later stage after the static grass.

 

The best thing you can do is make up some test pieces and practice/experiment.

 

You’ll find you get better as time goes by but it’s usually easy to go over areas at a later date.

 

I find it’s best to paint the base structure with an earthy or maybe green coloured paint, although some don’t bother. Another idea is to apply the static grass over a base of very cheap ‘grass sheet’ eg Javis. Either way stops any white plaster peeping through.

 

The main thing is get stuck in and have a go! 🙂 You own experience is worth a million words.

 

[Andy Keane]

On 09/11/2022 at 15:49, longchap said:

 

Here we go again, but, and it's a good but, those fine chaps at Missenden Railway Modellers have found me a place on the spring loco building course, so me and my small Metro tank (hmm, I suspect another loco chassis might sneak into the trunk) will be joining @Andy Keane and the other merry modellers for a weekend of fun.

 

Hopefully a tutor can finally show me how to fold up High Level Kits' etched hornblocks, as I've already mastered how not to!

 

Bill

Bill

What sort of chassis do you plan for your Metro? I know there are the original whitemetal cast ones, newer etched brass ones and I have heard of some people milling up solid blocks of brass. As yet I have not gotten the chassis just the body and wondered if you have views? I don't think a four coupled loco really needs a compensated chassis but perhaps you want that too?

regards

Andy

[longchap]

3 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Bill

What sort of chassis do you plan for your Metro? I know there are the original whitemetal cast ones, newer etched brass ones and I have heard of some people milling up solid blocks of brass. As yet I have not gotten the chassis just the body and wondered if you have views? I don't think a four coupled loco really needs a compensated chassis but perhaps you want that too?

regards

Andy

 

Hi Andy,

My kit came with the newer etched chassis, complete with the option of compensation and as I would try compensation in the future, the Missenden course seems an excellent place to learn and fit the fundamentals to a simpler kit.

 

I also sourced two 517 kits a while back, one with an assembled white metal chassis, the other with an etched one still on the fret. The white metal one looks surprisingly robust, but heavy and I think any future builds would benefit from the extra detail possible with an etched unit. A milled chassis from brass may be stronger than white metal and easier to work with, but it still lacks the sophistication of etched brass or nickel silver.

 

The Finecast chassis looks very straightforward with a fixed axles setup and the fret is shown below.

 

 

Ignore the complexity of the left hand fret, as it contain spacers for OO, EM and P4 set ups, the frames are as below and I've just pushed out some rivet detail

 

Have you got wheels, axles and motor? You'll probably need them at the course. I sourced Markits wheels, as they are self-quartering.

 

 

[Andy Keane]

30 minutes ago, longchap said:

 

Hi Andy,

My kit came with the newer etched chassis, complete with the option of compensation and as I would try compensation in the future, the Missenden course seems an excellent place to learn and fit the fundamentals to a simpler kit.

 

I also sourced two 517 kits a while back, one with an assembled white metal chassis, the other with an etched one still on the fret. The white metal one looks surprisingly robust, but heavy and I think any future builds would benefit from the extra detail possible with an etched unit. A milled chassis from brass may be stronger than white metal and easier to work with, but it still lacks the sophistication of etched brass or nickel silver.

 

The Finecast chassis looks very straightforward with a fixed axles setup and the fret is shown below.

 

 

Ignore the complexity of the left hand fret, as it contain spacers for OO, EM and P4 set ups, the frames are as below and I've just pushed out some rivet detail

 

Have you got wheels, axles and motor? You'll probably need them at the course. I sourced Markits wheels, as they are self-quartering.

 

 

Bill

thanks for the photos - very helpful.

I have just one of the original Wills body kits so would need the etch, plus wheel set, plus motor / gear box. SEF seem to do all these separately at a price:

FC180 chassis kit £42.19

FW 180 Romford wheel kit £39.88

FE004 Type 1 Motor Pack DS10/ H1024 (with mount, gears and axle bushes) £29.95

The Romford wheels seem expensive and they offer a cheaper variant at about half the price by Scale Link but will take a look at Markits wheels too.

I need to get all this in place before the course but hopefully even the current postal system will do that!

regards

Andy

[longchap]

44 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Bill

thanks for the photos - very helpful.

I have just one of the original Wills body kits so would need the etch, plus wheel set, plus motor / gear box. SEF seem to do all these separately at a price:

FC180 chassis kit £42.19

FW 180 Romford wheel kit £39.88

FE004 Type 1 Motor Pack DS10/ H1024 (with mount, gears and axle bushes) £29.95

The Romford wheels seem expensive and they offer a cheaper variant at about half the price by Scale Link but will take a look at Markits wheels too.

I need to get all this in place before the course but hopefully even the current postal system will do that!

regards

Andy

 

Roxey Mouldings used to carry a large range of Markits loco wheels, as well as motors and gearboxes and used to attend numerous exhibitions with a large and busy stand. I was looking forward to visiting their stand at the January Eastleigh exhibition, but note on their website that they are cutting back on exhibitions. Shame, as I was intending getting some more wheelsets for several other kits.

 

The prices you've researched show a marked increase over those I remember from just a couple of years ago. Take a look at High Level Kits for motors though, as they have researched replacements, following the retirement of Mr Mashima and a worldwide shortage of his excellent products. Chris at HL has sensible prices and an excellent range of gearboxes as well, so I'll speaking to him before too long, as I now have more kits than I have motors. Me bad!

 

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by longchap

[Neal Ball]

9 hours ago, longchap said:

 

Hi Andy,

My kit came with the newer etched chassis, complete with the option of compensation and as I would try compensation in the future, the Missenden course seems an excellent place to learn and fit the fundamentals to a simpler kit.

 

I also sourced two 517 kits a while back, one with an assembled white metal chassis, the other with an etched one still on the fret. The white metal one looks surprisingly robust, but heavy and I think any future builds would benefit from the extra detail possible with an etched unit. A milled chassis from brass may be stronger than white metal and easier to work with, but it still lacks the sophistication of etched brass or nickel silver.

 

The Finecast chassis looks very straightforward with a fixed axles setup and the fret is shown below.

 

 

Ignore the complexity of the left hand fret, as it contain spacers for OO, EM and P4 set ups, the frames are as below and I've just pushed out some rivet detail

 

Have you got wheels, axles and motor? You'll probably need them at the course. I sourced Markits wheels, as they are self-quartering.

 

 

Thanks very much Bill, loco chassis construction remains a foreign land to me!  How do you “push some rivet detail”

 

Plus, what do you mean by self quartering? 
 

I think my preference would be the Comet frame spacers, which look straight forward to use.
 

Thanks, Neal

 

8 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Bill

thanks for the photos - very helpful.

I have just one of the original Wills body kits so would need the etch, plus wheel set, plus motor / gear box. SEF seem to do all these separately at a price:

FC180 chassis kit £42.19

FW 180 Romford wheel kit £39.88

FE004 Type 1 Motor Pack DS10/ H1024 (with mount, gears and axle bushes) £29.95

The Romford wheels seem expensive and they offer a cheaper variant at about half the price by Scale Link but will take a look at Markits wheels too.

I need to get all this in place before the course but hopefully even the current postal system will do that!

regards

Andy

I too have been looking at those Squires details…. Bear in mind those prices  are dated April 2021.

 

For my first foray into locos, I would favour getting it all in one place….. but the Highline stuff does look very good.

 

I do have wheels already, but don’t know if they are the correct ones, so am inclined to replace.

[Andy Keane]

57 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Thanks very much Bill, loco chassis construction remains a foreign land to me!  How do you “push some rivet detail”

 

Plus, what do you mean by self quartering? 
 

I think my preference would be the Comet frame spacers, which look straight forward to use.
 

Thanks, Neal

 

I too have been looking at those Squires details…. Bear in mind those prices  are dated April 2021.

 

For my first foray into locos, I would favour getting it all in one place….. but the Highline stuff does look very good.

 

I do have wheels already, but don’t know if they are the correct ones, so am inclined to replace.

Quartering is the business of getting the crank pins all lined up so the con rods are parallel and at 90 degrees to each other. If wrong the driving wheel and driven wheels bind as I know to my cost. Self quartering wheels have square bits cast in to ensure this.

I also prefer to source chassis and all bits from one supplier in the hope of having fewer problems later on. I have been planning a loco build since I was a kid so it’s time to take the plunge and hopefully the Missenden tutor will prevent total disaster.

 

Andy

Edited December 31, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Graham T]

2 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Thanks very much Bill, loco chassis construction remains a foreign land to me!  How do you “push some rivet detail”

 

 

I used quite a few etched brass sheets when I built a 1:72 model of HMS Campanula (the sets were from David Parkins, who I think may be a member here).  On several of them rivets were shown by a dot etched into the rear surface of the sheet; you then use a pinpoint to gently push through the metal from the rear side, raising a dimple on the visible face to represent the rivet head.  I think this is what @longchap was probably referring to...

 

[longchap]

4 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Thanks very much Bill, loco chassis construction remains a foreign land to me!  How do you “push some rivet detail”

 

Plus, what do you mean by self quartering? 
 

I think my preference would be the Comet frame spacers, which look straight forward to use.
 

Thanks, Neal

 

Welcome to the last 2022 day and as we look forward to some jolly interesting modelling next year, we at chez Longchap are preparing for yet another trip to the wine bar this evening for some convivial taking of wine with the locals.

 

Pushing through rivets is one of those simple pleasures which, like ballasting, fitting post and rail fencing, making and fitting cut slate roof strips, can take a while, but needs to be done consistently to obtain a good overall look, so some practice will be required. Etched chassis and body parts will often have part depth rivets on the reverse side, which need to be 'pushed out' by an appropriate tool. An old dart head for example could be employed, or a blunted centre punch, or a rivet punch having an adjustable height drop weight, or perhaps one of those fancy rivet presses with both a punch and a shaped anvil. All need to be learned to get pleasing results. My first foray with a Dragon Models brass coal wagon kit was a good learning point. I used a drop weighted punch tool and experimented with the drop height and differing density 'mats' to obtain a pleasing rivet head. I must finish that kit one day, then heavily weather it. This is now my weapon of choice:

 

 

 

You mentioned frame spacers; essential little critters in holding the chassis frames apart at hopefully the right distance. Don't get too excited with the easy to use screw-in type brass rods often advertised as for '00', but varying in length by an unhelpful margin. They will work loose over time if not soldered and they look horrible. Etched chassis fret spacers are designed to the correct width for the intended chassis, bend up easily and are soldered in place to do the job intended. You can even very easily make your own out of brass sheet to suit any chassis, particularly when replacing screw in types.

 

A final thought is my personal recommendation for the most useful book available to the aspiring chassis builder. It is Iain Rice's 'Locomotive Chassis Construction in 4mm'. Now long out of print and a little dated in parts, it is still obtainable and is still the best on the subject. I've read and re-read most of it several times and will so again before March. There are also some useful video presentations on the Missenden Railway Modellers website, including loco building.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by longchap

[Andy Keane]

15 minutes ago, longchap said:

 

Welcome to the last 2022 day and as we look forward to some jolly interesting modelling next year, we at chez Longchap are preparing for yet another trip to the wine bar this evening for some convivial taking of wine with the locals.

 

Pushing through rivets is one of those simple pleasures which, like ballasting, fitting post and rail fencing, making and fitting cut slate roof strips, can take a while, but needs to be done consistently to obtain a good overall look, so some practice will be required. Etched chassis and body parts will often have part depth rivets on the reverse side, which need to be 'pushed out' by an appropriate tool. An old dart head for example could be employed, or a blunted centre punch, or a rivet punch having an adjustable height drop weight, or perhaps one of those fancy rivet presses with both a punch and a shaped anvil. All need to be learned to get pleasing results. My first foray with a Dragon Models brass coal wagon kit was a good learning point. I used a drop weighted punch tool and experimented with the drop height and differing density 'mats' to obtain a pleasing rivet head. I must finish that kit one day, then heavily weather it. This is now my weapon of choice:

 

 

 

You mentioned frame spacers; essential little critters in holding the chassis frames apart at hopefully the right distance. Don't get too excited with the easy to use screw-in type brass rods often advertised as for '00', but varying in length by an unhelpful margin. They will work loose over time if not soldered and they look horrible. Etched chassis fret spacers are designed to the correct width for the intended chassis, bend up easily and are soldered in place to do the job intended. You can even very easily make your own out of brass sheet to suit any chassis, particularly when replacing screw in types.

 

A final thought is my personal recommendation for the most useful book available to the aspiring chassis builder. It is Iain Rice's 'Locomotive Chassis Construction in 4mm'. Now long out of print and a little dated in parts, it is still obtainable and is still the best on the subject. I've read and re-read most of it several times and will so again before March. There are also some useful video presentations on the Missenden Railway Modellers website, including loco building.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

That is a seriously grown up rivet tool!

[longchap]

5 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

That is a seriously grown up rivet tool!

 

Thanks Andy, perhaps I should seriously consider growing up then  .  .  . wait a mo  .  .  .

 

 

                      .  .  .  well but  .  .  . where's the fun in that?

 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by longchap

[Andy Keane]

I am nearly ready for the grass! My foam hills have been glued, filled, foamcoated and in some cases painted light earth with the odd patch of very pale earth which I will partially expose (its textured diaorama light earth paint). When They are all prepped I shall have to take the plunge - I want to try and do most of it together to ensure even colours and textures. But first I am doing some YouTube watching and will try out on my trusty test track. I am still wondering about the colour of the cess - is it too grey?

[Graham T]

Not sure about the cess colour, but I would recommend painting all of the ground surface with an earthy brown acrylic.  That way you won't have any white showing through if there's the odd bare patch in the static grass.

 

[Andy Keane]

3 hours ago, Graham T said:

Not sure about the cess colour, but I would recommend painting all of the ground surface with an earthy brown acrylic.  That way you won't have any white showing through if there's the odd bare patch in the static grass.

 

The upper picture shows the bank painted in a pale brown / beige which will be quite close to the bare earth I am envisaging. Maybe its too pale?

Edited December 31, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Gilbert]

31 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

The upper picture shows the bank painted in a pale brown / beige which will be quite close to the bare earth I am envisage. Maybe its too pale?

Possiby so - this is my start point for the current project..brown coloured filler plus some texture prior to grass etc.

Foliage and bushes will hide a multitude of blemishes!

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I am nearly ready for the grass! My foam hills have been glued, filled, foamcoated and in some cases painted light earth with the odd patch of very pale earth which I will partially expose (its textured diaorama light earth paint). When They are all prepped I shall have to take the plunge - I want to try and do most of it together to ensure even colours and textures. But first I am doing some YouTube watching and will try out on my trusty test track. I am still wondering about the colour of the cess - is it too grey?

Whichever colour you choose - and I agree with those that suggest something darker - I recommend strongly that you do the ballasting and make sure everything is working after that before going any further with the pretty stuff.

[Andy Keane]

6 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Whichever colour you choose - and I agree with those that suggest something darker - I recommend strongly that you do the ballasting and make sure everything is working after that before going any further with the pretty stuff.

The order of doing things is something I ponder all the time. I was leaving ballast for a while since I want it to flow over the cess and so wanted all the hills down first to form the cess edges. Less sure about grass versus ballast. I also need the rodding bases down before the ballast but after the cess. I will ponder some more.

thanks

Andy

Edited December 31, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Neal Ball]

11 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Whichever colour you choose - and I agree with those that suggest something darker - I recommend strongly that you do the ballasting and make sure everything is working after that before going any further with the pretty stuff.

 

11 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

The order of doing things is something I ponder all the time. I was leaving ballast for a while since I want it to flow over the cess and so wanted all the hills down first to form the cess edges. Less sure about grass versus ballast. I also need the rodding bases down before the ballast but after the cess. I will ponder some more.

thanks

Andy

I agree with St Enodoc, get the ballasting out of the way, it’s very tedious etc. etc. whereas the static grass is fun!

 

Definite ballast first. Good luck

[Andy Keane]

Ok

So something like this:

1. finish painting the hills and maybe make them slightly darker
2. install the point rodding blocks but not the rodding
3. paint the cess with textured paint etc and get a good colour
4. paint the sleepers and rails
5. ballast the track!
6. put in the yard muck around the track and over ballast in the yard areas to semi-bury the sleepers
7. test all is well for operations
8. add the grass - but taking care when layering with spray to not get grass on the cess and track where I don't want it
9. install the point rodding and signal lines
10. lots more pretty stuff ....

That should keep me busy for a while!

Happy New Year and many thanks to all who add their comments and advice here - it is very much valued.

Andy

[Neal Ball]

Pretty good summation Andy.

 

Once the ballast etc. is done, I then add wide masking tape over the top of the ballast and track and then do the static grass. That way you won’t forever be clearing grass where you didn’t want it to go.

 

Bearing in mind I did my static grass after we moved house and even the backscene was in place, so I had lots of masking / paper covers etc to stop unwanted grass.
 

If in some areas you want a more ragged finish to the border to the ballast, apply some glue and grass by hand. The other trick is to put a blob of PVA onto a piece of greaseproof paper, then add the static grass. Allow to dry and you have a nice tuft(s).

 

When using the machine, I ensure I have no locos on the track. Might not be an issue, but I don’t want any fried decoders.