problem with my new airbrush

[zarniwhoop]

Hi, I bought a Badger 200 last year, then scared myself to death reading about all the things that can go wrong. By the time I'd got hold of various thinners and a compressor, it was too cold to spray (I use my garage). Now that summer is/was here, I've pulled it out and I'm attempting to paint coach sides as the first step (a couple of test pieces, then one to do for real). This is a single action brush, with a jar. I'm using phoenix paint at the moment, with an equal amount of phoenix airbrushing thinners, and about 45psi. When I first started, I'd disassembled the brush a few times to begin to understand what I'd have to do to clean it. It passed air, but no paint. I discovered that the nuts for adjusting the spray weren't tight, and that if I pulled the needle back it would spray.

 

So, now my adjusting nuts are tight but I still have two problems (probably related) -

 

1. The adjustment doesn't seem to alter the width of the spray. If I screw in too far, it goes off. If I screw out it sprays, but the width of the spray doesn't seem to change (I'd guess it is something like a 4cm width, depending how far away I spray). Or should I be using the whole length of the adjuster - I've only been turning it a few turns after it starts to work ? And the spray is quite solid. On the work, some tendency to run, and the coverage looks heavy when first applied, but it dries tolerably, 4 or 5 coats seem to give an adequate finish.

 

2. I can't spray for long: set it up, twiddle with the adjuster to ensure paint is coming out, and then I can spray for a few seconds (enough time to do an OO coach side). After that, the paint stops. If I take the brush apart and clean it, I can get it "working" again (inverted commas becasue I'm sure this isn't the proper definition of 'working' but if instead of cleaning it I try to spray just thinners (either phoenix or cellulose) only the air comes through.

 

All the things google has found suggest that 1:1 phoenix:thinners is probably ok. Descriptions of 'milk' and 'single-cream' are difficult to grok (I drink *skimmed* milk), but I'm wondering if I need to use more thinners ? The Model Rail airbrushing DVD apparently suggests only 20% thinners (or, are my ears shot ?), but my mix seems to pass the 'drop paint from the stirrer onto paper and watch it form a blob' test in the DVD.

 

Or have I missed something else in the "Airbrush 101" prerequisites ?

 

TIA.

 

ĸen

[bertiedog]

Most airbrushes do not vary the width of the target area, it would need a more fully adjustable type to do this, the point is that airbrushes have a restricted area of spray, this is desirable.

 

 

Now, two practices and then a side are jumping the gun wildly, get a few old tins and scrap, and practice on them first, thin coats, allow time to dry, and get used to the time involved with painting, there are no short cuts.

 

Over thinning can affect the paint, so not too much, it just slows the build of the paints. Do no get too close, and use a low pressure and build up a bit as you practice and get used to the airbrush. Each type of paint will be different, cellulose will be easiest, but it appears at first glance none is made, but car paint is, and phoenix and rail match will take cellulose thinners as well as spirit thinners.

 

Acrylic is easy to spray, but clean the gun at once never let it set in the gun.

 

Clean the gun all the time, before use and after with thinners and dis-assemble occasionally to wash out any trace of dried paint.

 

Stephen.

[zarniwhoop]

Most airbrushes do not vary the width of the target area, it would need a more fully adjustable type to do this, the point is that airbrushes have a restricted area of spray, this is desirable.

 

 

Now, two practices and then a side are jumping the gun wildly, get a few old tins and scrap, and practice on them first, thin coats, allow time to dry, and get used to the time involved with painting, there are no short cuts.

 

Over thinning can affect the paint, so not too much, it just slows the build of the paints. Do no get too close, and use a low pressure and build up a bit as you practice and get used to the airbrush. Each type of paint will be different, cellulose will be easiest, but it appears at first glance none is made, but car paint is, and phoenix and rail match will take cellulose thinners as well as spirit thinners.

 

Acrylic is easy to spray, but clean the gun at once never let it set in the gun.

 

Clean the gun all the time, before use and after with thinners and dis-assemble occasionally to wash out any trace of dried paint.

 

Stephen.

 

Stephen, many thanks, not least for causing me to re-read the instruction leaflet. I read the part in the instructions where it says -

 

"TO ADJUST PAINT FLOW

Paint flow controlled by moving needle adjusting screw forward for fine spray, back for wider spray"

 

and assumed it meant what it said.

 

I'd increased the pressure to see if it helped, and I had thought it seemed to. Now that you've made me look at the instructions again, I see the part "Normal operating pressure is 30 psi" so I've been using too much pressure.

 

Yes, I am jumping the gun wildly. By the standards of many people here, what is currently acceptable to me will be graded as "fail". But I'm trying to balance paralysis-by-analysis / getting things done / not running out of the paints I want to use.

 

But, still no idea why the paint stops after "one side of a tin can" in your terms.

 

ĸen

[Baby Deltic]

You mention that you are using a single action airbrush. There are some limitations with this type. The thumb handle controls the amount of air only, and there is usually a small knob for controlling the amount of paint being mixed with the air. It may be a factor governing the spray width. I use a Simair double action airbrush where pressing down the trigger increases the air pressure and pulling back increases the amount of paint. If the trigger is left in the forward position, the jet is very thin. As the trigger is pulled back, the needle moves back and the spray width increases vastly. Check the needle valve is moving back properly when you adjust the paint control nut.

[James Hilton]

I've got a Badger 200 - at the moment I only use propellant cans as I haven't justified a compressor!

 

I also use Badger 'Airbrush cleaner' (which I think is a cellulose thinner/solvent) after use and blast a little through the gun. I've also dis-assembled every few months to clean up the needle gently again with the cleaner. In terms of PSI I'd hazard a guess that the cans put out 30psi tops - and often a bit less - it could well be that you've too much air pressure?

 

In use - I've found Phoenix paints harder to spray then Railmatch. My very recent experience with Railmatch enamels has been excellent - a lovely finish achieved in two light coats - with about 15mins drying time.

I mix about 45% white spirit to the paint.

 

I start with the needle screwed right out and adjust the paint flow until I get a controlled mist - I use an old cardboard box as a make shift spray booth and spray against the card until I get the pattern I'm after - enough so it doesn't take an age to paint a model, but not so much that it floods all the detail.

 

Hope that helps - from a beginners view point with similar equipment!

 

Cheers!

[Jon020]

I use a double action airbrush (not an expensive one), and a compressor. Whilst the pressure is variable, there's no indicator, so it's very much trial and error . For quite a lot of simple spraying jobs, the single action and double action devices will probably offer little difference in result although the top feed devices offer better atomisation of the paint - ok, that's my memory pushed to the extreme.

If you're using Precision paints, look into their little booklet that covers everything - the finishing touch, I think it's called. My copy was inherited from my grandfather in the 1980s, but it’s still available – very useful if you’re new to the technique.

 

 

 

I’d be cautious about using white spirit to thin down enamel paints. I used to do this with Humbrol paints (years ago) but now try to use spray thinners… I’ve found some off results mixing white spirit with Rail Match enamels on a mixing pallet for brush painting – when the pigment seemed to separate out.

 

When I mix Railmatch enamels, I find that little thinners is needed, probably about 10%. The measure I use is that taught by my Grandfather when I was a lad… (he used to take commissions to make metal loco kits up – proceeds to support Clan Line), he taught me to mix the paint and then watch the paint drip off the mixing tool; the paint should form a spherical drop, held briefly on the surface of the paint by its surface tension, and then fall in. Whether it’s right or not… I’ve found it to work ok.

 

 

 

I too use a makeshift spray booth (cardboard box re-jig)… always with open windows or outdoors.

 

I also spray onto the back of the booth to start with, then onto a piece of plasticard alongside the subject to be painted to check flow and density before moving to the loco – but yes, this is easy when weathering or varnishing, but possibly more control will be needed when painting.

 

 

 

I have also experienced problems with paint flow restriction after a period of free flow and fount it to be due to vacuum formation. My airbrush has a small breather hole in the paint holder top. After some use, this can block and prevent air-flow into the paint chamber. For a while, the airbrush will suck paint out… but eventually the pressure in the paint reservoir is reduced so that the airbrush can’t overcome it and paint flow stops. Try looking to see if there is a small hole in the top of the bottle – and keep a small needle to hand to keep it clear.

 

 

 

Good luck

 

 

[zarniwhoop]

Thanks to everyone. Some progress, but no cigar. First off, I guess when I said the spray was wide, what I meant was *heavy* - now I've had it spraying better, I can see that where I've painted is not much narrower.

 

Mixed up some spare railmatch paint with 50% thinners. Turned the adjusting nuts fully out, then in until the spray was what I would hope to see from an aerosol. Yes! Painted 3 sheets of paper like this, then got bored. Painted one coat across a test piece about the size of a coach. So far so good, and it seems that lower pressure AND pulling the needle right out then screwing it in are key (I'd previously screwed it right in, then out until paint appeared). So big thanks to James in particular.

 

BUT ... I then tried to spray some more onto sheets of paper, and only air came out. Used a pin to check the airhole was not blocked - it wasn't. So, I stripped the brush down again and cleaned it.

 

Last thought for this post - I save white spirit for cleaning, and avoid it either for thinning or for cleaning the airbrush. Last year I used it to thin enamels so I could wash them on for weathering with a paintbrush. But even after 2 days, a subsequent coat would remove what I'd already done. If it works for you, not a problem.

 

ĸen

[Jon020]

Dear Zarniwhoop...still stuck on the intersteller space liner awaiting Zaphod?

Ok, I'm at a bit of a loss with the loss of paint application unless there is a blockage creeping in somewhere. I had a h#ll of a time before I noticed that it was just the breather hole blocking on mine...

I'd still say that 50% thinners is a bit too thin for railmatch... maybe it's drying too quickly and affecting the nozzle. Have you tried a thicker mix?

Testing on bits of paper seems tedious... I tested on some old wagons, which gave a more realistic test.

I'd say keep at it... but if you still continue to have problems try contacting badger - or see if you can borrow another airbrush to try ?

[Revolution Ben]

Hello there,

 

I bought a a Badger 200 as my entry-level brush and got on OK with it; but I quite rapidly upgraded to a dual-action type (Badger 150) as the single action makes it hard to get subtle effects such as sooty build up around exhausts, which is what I was after.

 

The spray width will depend on your nozzle - are you using a fine, medium or heavy tip? You may wish to alter this.

 

Also, how are you loading your paint cup? Is there plenty of paint still in there when you are no longer able to get paint through the nozzle? When cleaning I tend to "blow back" into the cup full of thinners by holding a rag over the end of the gun so the air bubbles into the cup. Why not try this before painting with clean thinners to check all is clear? If your paint flow then dries up, and there's still paint in the cup, try again to see if there is a one-way flow problem...

 

I found that it took a while to get familiar with the workings of the airbrush - maybe a few months - but then I got much more confident about dismantling for cleaning, and setting up to suit my preferences.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[zarniwhoop]

Dear Zarniwhoop...still stuck on the intersteller space liner awaiting Zaphod?

 

No, that hasn't happened yet

[zarniwhoop]

 

The spray width will depend on your nozzle - are you using a fine, medium or heavy tip? You may wish to alter this.

 

Also, how are you loading your paint cup? Is there plenty of paint still in there when you are no longer able to get paint through the nozzle? When cleaning I tend to "blow back" into the cup full of thinners by holding a rag over the end of the gun so the air bubbles into the cup. Why not try this before painting with clean thinners to check all is clear? If your paint flow then dries up, and there's still paint in the cup, try again to see if there is a one-way flow problem...

 

The nozzle is "whatever came with it". The box shows a two-inch spray pattern, and mentions it adjusts from 1.6mm to 50mm. I'm guessing that counts as "medium".

 

For recent cases of "it stopped spraying", yes there was still enough paint in the jar. For some of my first attempts, no, it did indeed run out a lot quicker than I'd expected.

 

I'll give the back-flushing a try next time.

 

ĸen

[Pete the Elaner]

I don't know why double/single action has been mentioned. Double action is another debate, but totally unrelated to your problem.

I have a Badger 200 too. You can get good results from it. Don't think about another airbrush to cure this problem.

 

I dismantle my airbrush for cleaning every time I use it & give the small components a short soaking before blasting them dry with an air gun. I use cellulose thinners for cleaning. My 15+ year-old airbrush looks new, which is exactly how I believe an airbrush should look. It doesn't sound like a dirty brush is your problem.

 

Are you mixing the paint throughly & then some? I used to mix it until I thought it was fine. It used to spray for a while then I had to unscrew the needle to get the paint flowing again. I now stir the paint until it looks fine, then stir a load more.

[tebee]

I would suspect the reason it may be stopping is the nozzle getting clogged up - look for a build-up of paint around the inside of the tip. There can be several reasons for this, the most likely are - paint wrong consistency,probably too think or not mixed properly, trying to put too much paint at once through the brush, or the needle being slightly bent or having a damaged point.

 

I would try running the brush on plain water, this is also a good way to get used to spraying with the airbrush and is much cheaper to practice with than paint ! See if it keeps spraying this.

[ozzyo]

Ken,

 

do you have the same probs. when you spray neat cellulose thinners through the brush?

 

How old is the paint? Do you strain it before use [i use 20 denier tights for this 'new ones'] you can do it before thinning it or after, if you do it after thinning it will run through the tights quicker that the un-thinned paint.

 

Check that the nozzle has not got a split in it if its one with a brass nozzle.

 

If after all this have a word with Coachman for some advice.

 

OzzyO.

[zarniwhoop]

(replying to all, hope I've covered everything)

 

Today, I tried spraying plain water. Managed a jar full without any problems. Left the brush to dry, then later back-flushed it with thinners. Stirred what was left of the thinned railmatch I'd been using yesterday, sprayed a little of it, the brush cut out. Backflushed again, added a little more thinners, mixed, did some light spraying (coverage would be fine for light weathering, but is too thin for painting). This time, it stopped because the paint was now below the pickup tube.

 

<moan>Running out when there is still paint in the jar annoys me, I seem to need maybe 5ml to be able to spray at all. At this rate, I'll be painting with only 1/10th of the paint I use (losses in/on the syringe I use to transfer it to a jar, some on the strirrer and the edge of the jar, test-firing to adjust the needle, overspray, the unusable remainder). </>

 

When I clean the brush, there is paint on the nozzle where the pickup tube will be (maybe a centimetre length, behind the point).

 

So, I think the problem is probably insufficient mixing, and perhaps a need to strain it. Most of these paints have been hanging around for some months - I've used them to brush paint test strips, then kept them in storage, and discarded those that were set hard when I opened them again :-( But, I can't imagine straining the enamels *before* adding thinners, they seem far too thick ?

 

With a hand stirrer, mixing up between 10 and 15ml of paint/thinners, what sort of time should I be mixing it (enamels) ?

 

The needle looks to be straight, and I doubt it is damaged. Unlike the screw-top for the pickup tube - I managed to drop that, and the side of the top is now cracked. I think I'll be going back to Squires soon for spares. I suppose I should add a cup so I can use what's left in the jar, and a strainer, to my shopping list.

 

ĸen

[bertiedog]

It's a long shot, but there might be some grit in the airline in side of the gun, perhaps from manufacture a flake of metal etc has got tapped in there, and is somewhere in the air paint mix area. might be a solid grain, or even a flake of plastic packing etc.

 

 

Carefully strip after flushing out, and general cleaning, on to a clean white surface like paper, and see if there is anything like that lurking in an odd corner with a lens.

 

Carefully clean out the nooks and crannies with tissues or cotton buds, cleaning and inspecting each part as they are cleaned.

 

After re-assembly try with pure thinners, and fresh well mixed paint with proper thinners, (not turps or white spirit), the mixing can be with a wire with a bent end on a small power screwdriver or slow drill to make sure.

 

De-cant after the mix to a spotlessly clean pot and add the thinners, with Railmatch about 35/40 % thinners at most. If the paint ( or the thinners), is old or suspect it can be run through a coffee paper filter after the second mix with thinners. Most times this will not be needed.

 

Guns may need " clearing the throat" by blow back every so often whilst in use, mine last about 20 minute before needing it, so I do it every few minutes.

 

The amount needed is down to the paint and thinners, acrylic will not need it, but be warned set dried acrylic that's in the gun is the devil to remove, so flush at one with water.

 

Railmatch is quite thin paint and sprays well with 30 % thinners in both an Aerograph, Iwata, and a Paashe I have.

Phoenix Paint, I use with cellulose thinners, 60% max, some times a bit less.

 

Car paint and cellulose primer need 60% minimum and the primer and matt black may need more.

 

The reason the so called Enamels from Phoenix work with cellulose is that they are coach enamels and can take the thinners. Humbrol can't, and Revell can't, although I tried it with Revell and it worked.

 

Phoenix can also be dissolved in petrol, lighter fluid. But I would advise at first using the exact recommendation for thinners, made the paint that you are using, leave the tricky thinners till later on.

 

For all types except acrylic, use cellulose to clean and clear the airbrush. White spirit will also work a long as he paint has not dried hard in the gun, use straight away to flush clean.

 

Stephen.

[Matt]

I have a Badger 200 and have had the same probs you are having. I finally tracked it down to 2 things:

 

1. My inadequate cleaning of the nozzle - the action of moving the needle around breaks bridges in the nozzle but fundamentally quickly bridges back up again when there is some dried and immovable paint coating the internals. Soaking nozzle for days in various thinners don't work once the paint has formed in there

 

2. Using the supplied nozzle for enamel paints - this nozzle is a little on the small size and a couple of quid will get you a bigger nozzle less prone to blocking with enamels

 

Most of my work is with railmatch paints and thinners but your probs sound spookily similar. I now strip the airbrush down to its constituent parts every time I use and leave bits like nozzles soaking in thinners between uses - seems to work better now.

 

Good luck!

 

Matt

[Pete the Elaner]

Regarding stirring, how about making a small whisk from a length of brass? Bend the end into a hook & pop it in a mini-drill.

Much easier than stirring by hand.

[zarniwhoop]

Sorry about the delay in replying - I got a cup so I could spray smaller amounts. But, it was a damp evening so I decided not to spray, and put it somewhere safe. I won't resume spraying until I work out where that was :-(

 

In the meantime, I had soaked the tip in cellulose thinners just in case, and manipulated the needle, which turned out to have a gentle curve along its shaft - dunno if that has made any difference. Couldn't see anything trapped anywhere.

 

Stephen - thanks again for detailed advice. I'm sticking with 1:1 / 2:1 ratios for the moment, partly because trying to measure the exact ratios for small quantities of paint will do my head in (for now, measuring whole millilitres is as far as I'm willing to go). I'm sure I'll move towards finer measurements, to fine-tune what works for me, once I have the spray working reliably. And thanks for the advice on coffee filters - at last a use for them now that the only coffee I drink is espresso!

 

Matt - tempting advice, but I think you have the "original" badger 200 - the parts list for the "New Design" 200 only has one needle / tip (the old 200 had three sizes).

 

Pete - I'm a luddite - I don't have a minidrill!

 

I'll report back *when* I find the cup, but don't hold your breathe! Thanks.

 

ĸen

[zarniwhoop]

I'll report back *when* I find the cup, but don't hold your breathe! Thanks.

 

Well, at the risk of upsetting my penates (the household spirits - they hide things so I can't find them again), it looks as if the mixing was the problem. I've still got a long way to go before I get the hang of this, but I'm now using a Badger mixer (a bit like a coffee frother). Thanks to everyone.

 

ĸen

[Tom Bayford]

Another bit of advice is the pot lid with the pick up tube that came with my Badger 200 can also get clogged up with dried up paint as i have found out the hard way so that is just something else to beware off, just flushing it through with warm water should do it. And enjoy airbrushing when you get used to your airbrush and paints its a doddle

[45157]

Well, at the risk of upsetting my penates (the household spirits - they hide things so I can't find them again), it looks as if the mixing was the problem. I've still got a long way to go before I get the hang of this, but I'm now using a Badger mixer (a bit like a coffee frother). Thanks to everyone.

 

ĸen

 

Like you I also have a Badger stirrer and tend to run it for a minimum of 2 minutes in "the tin" (before thinning) even with recently used paints and often a lot longer in older tins.

An easy way to test stirring needs is to use some matt paint, a brush and a sample area.

Take samples at different times and you will find the more you stir the better the matt effect gets, and this will give a guide to how much paint should be stirred before use (a lot more than you might think)

 

I also use Badger air brushes (a 150 for "important" jobs and the bottom of the range plastic one for general spraying) I have had them both for more years than I care to remember and would only advise treating the needle with much respect and clean, clean, clean, during and after use, they are quality air brushes, and should give years of trouble free service..

I have recently bought an ultrasonic cleaner (just a cheepo from Aldi) to see if it is any good at cleaning the head while still assembled, but have not tried it yet.

 

I didn't know "they" were called Penates, but I also have a few very efficient ones in my house !!

 

regards

Stewart

[Dunmar]

Hi Ken,

I have only now seen this posting regards the probs with airbrushing! I have a Badger 200 (single action) which I have had for at least 25yrs - and it's still gives excellent results. Yes I also have a 150 and two Iwata airbrushes. Most of the time the problem lies with the user rather than the airbrush! You will get plenty of advice from others as what you should do! My advice if you are still having probs try to find someone near you who you know has good airbrushing skills ie, my own club had a very successful 'airbrushing evening' and we were all able to pick up on each others tips and methods.

As for myself my own skills with the 'brush' was evident on my 'Dunmar' layout. For 25yrs I have been using a 50/50 mix using 'white spirit' both for cleaning and paint thinning with alsorts of different makes of paint - even using cellulose thinners for a 'quick drying' effect.

As its been some time since this discussion I was just wondering how things were doing now?

Cheers,

Bill.

[zarniwhoop]

As its been some time since this discussion I was just wondering how things were doing now?

Cheers,

Bill.

 

Slowly, but it's definitely working (other calls on my time, and use of thinners to clean the kit in my dining room doesn't fit well with the baking I've been doing). It's working, but so far I've only been doing small amounts of railmatch from the cup. And now that the paint is less-thinned, cleaning up seems much messier!

 

ĸen

[Gene]

I used to use a Badger 200 for my armour models (30 years ago) and found it to be a very good piece of kit...and just bought one last week to re-familiarize myself with useing one..so I've been playing with it for the past few days.

Since I'm in Canada I'm useing Model-Master enamels and Humbrol enamels....with turpentine or Testors airbrush thinner.

I've found that mixing the paint well is really important, I'm useing a frother for that, and if need be I'm straining the paint through a piece cut from a pair of pantyhose...works a treat.

Also I tend to have the air set to about 20-22psi.........15 psi for acrylics.

Haveing said all that I'd say the best thing for you to do is try not to get frustrated and just keep experimenting...it'll all suddenly fall into place.

 

Cheers

Gene