Mileage datum points

[PenrithBeacon]

12 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

The mileage to Manchester and Liverpool is continuous from a zero at Euston (via Crewe), with Piccadilly being 188 miles 67 chains according to a Quail map (not latest edition, but these things rarely change).  The same mileage continues to Golborne Junction where it changes to a zero a short distance away at at Newton-le-Willows junction, the original starting point for the northward branch off the Liverpool and Manchester.  This series continues to Preston where it re-starts from zero and does the same at Lancaster, so this part of the WCML does indeed reflect its early history.  It re-starts at zero at Carlisle, which is the zero point for most of the Caledonian. 

OK, is this limited to the current way of depicting mileages, post de-nationalisation, or is it the historical way of depicting mileages? I think it's probably the former brought about by the changes to the rail network in Manchester

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_Link_Line,_Salford

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordsall_Chord

Edited June 21, 2021 by PenrithBeacon

[Edwin_m]

52 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

OK, is this limited to the current way of depicting mileages, post de-nationalisation, or is it the historical way of depicting mileages? I think it's probably the former brought about by the changes to the rail network in Manchester

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_Link_Line,_Salford

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordsall_Chord

I believe the mileages have been unchanged for many years - as I explained further back, it's usually more trouble than it's worth to change them even if they get rather untidy with route closures etc.  Those I mentioned above and below are the same in the Ian Allan gradients book where they are included at all, which is a reprint from about 1963.  

 

The mileage from Euston continues past Piccadilly, through Oxford Road, and along both the Windsor Link and the Ordsall Chord.  It finishes at Windsor Bridge South Junction and Irwell Street Junction where the former L&Y mileage from Victoria continues towards Bolton or Wigan.  At Ordsall Lane it "crosses" the mileage on the Chat Moss route which runs from a zero at Lime Street.  That mileage is unusual in that it is ascending in the Up direction and also because both it and the mileages from Euston are used for different parallel tracks between Lime Street and Edge Hill.  

[Oldddudders]

I am not clever on mileages, but one that sticks in my mind is just south of Standish Junction, being 100. This reminded me of how far I had to go, changing at Cheltenham and New St, to get to my afternoon meeting in Derby!

[The Stationmaster]

4 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I am not clever on mileages, but one that sticks in my mind is just south of Standish Junction, being 100. This reminded me of how far I had to go, changing at Cheltenham and New St, to get to my afternoon meeting in Derby!

Still the same mileage - but you'd be nearing the end of your journey to Derby if you'd started from where you live now

[PenrithBeacon]

1 hour ago, Edwin_m said:

I believe the mileages have been unchanged for many years - as I explained further back, it's usually more trouble than it's worth to change them even if they get rather untidy with route closures etc.  Those I mentioned above and below are the same in the Ian Allan gradients book where they are included at all, which is a reprint from about 1963.  

 

The mileage from Euston continues past Piccadilly, through Oxford Road, and along both the Windsor Link and the Ordsall Chord.  It finishes at Windsor Bridge South Junction and Irwell Street Junction where the former L&Y mileage from Victoria continues towards Bolton or Wigan.  At Ordsall Lane it "crosses" the mileage on the Chat Moss route which runs from a zero at Lime Street.  That mileage is unusual in that it is ascending in the Up direction and also because both it and the mileages from Euston are used for different parallel tracks between Lime Street and Edge Hill.  

Ok but that implies that the mileage of Altrincham branch of the MSJ&A starts at Castlefield Junction and not the now pretty well theoretical location of the South Junction .

Do you know of an LNW/LMS distance diagram book along the lines of the well known Midland distance diagram book. I've looked for one such in many archives to no avail.

[Oldddudders]

8 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Still the same mileage - but you'd be nearing the end of your journey to Derby if you'd started from where you live now

Yes! And in those days I'd just come from two morning meetings in Swindon! Getting there from Kent had required an early-ish start....

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

I am not clever on mileages, but one that sticks in my mind is just south of Standish Junction, being 100. This reminded me of how far I had to go, changing at Cheltenham and New St, to get to my afternoon meeting in Derby!

You needn't have gone all the way to Derby for a meeting - why not stay in Cheltenham for the Gold Cup !

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

You needn't have gone all the way to Derby for a meeting - why not stay in Cheltenham for the Gold Cup !

 

Given that he says he was starting from Kent, Epsom would have been more convenient!

[doilum]

I was reading a book on the Swinton & Knottingley. It appears that BR, having decided very logically to renumber using Burton Salmon as point zero, utilized recycled posts without altering the previous number.........

(Yes I do know that BS was never technically part of the S&K)

Edited June 21, 2021 by doilum
Predictive text error

[Edwin_m]

5 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Ok but that implies that the mileage of Altrincham branch of the MSJ&A starts at Castlefield Junction and not the now pretty well theoretical location of the South Junction .

Do you know of an LNW/LMS distance diagram book along the lines of the well known Midland distance diagram book. I've looked for one such in many archives to no avail.

I'm not aware of any such - I only have relatively modern Quail maps.  These show the non-Metrolink part of the MSJ&A being miled from Oxford Road, and then changing south of Altrincham to be miled from Central.  

59 minutes ago, doilum said:

I was reading a book on the Swinton & Knottingley. It appears that BR, having decided very logically to renumber using Burton Salmon as point zero, utilized recycled posts without altering the previous number.........

(Yes I do know that BS was never technically part of the S&K)

There was a discussions somewhere, possibly on here, a few years ago about a picture showing a MR milepost on the curve from Moorthorpe to South Kirkby sometime in the 70s, with the correct figure for if the Midland mileposts had continued from Swinton.  Perhaps a re-miling from zero at Burton Salmon explains this.  

[doilum]

I did consider trying to give a concise precis of the BS tale but gave up. If anyone is really interested it is on pg 22-3 of D L Frank's book on the S&,K.

[PenrithBeacon]

On 21/06/2021 at 11:07, Edwin_m said:

I believe the mileages have been unchanged for many years - as I explained further back, it's usually more trouble than it's worth to change them even if they get rather untidy with route closures etc.  Those I mentioned above and below are the same in the Ian Allan gradients book where they are included at all, which is a reprint from about 1963.  

 

The mileage from Euston continues past Piccadilly, through Oxford Road, and along both the Windsor Link and the Ordsall Chord.  It finishes at Windsor Bridge South Junction and Irwell Street Junction where the former L&Y mileage from Victoria continues towards Bolton or Wigan.  At Ordsall Lane it "crosses" the mileage on the Chat Moss route which runs from a zero at Lime Street.  That mileage is unusual in that it is ascending in the Up direction and also because both it and the mileages from Euston are used for different parallel tracks between Lime Street and Edge Hill.  

Ok, bought the Ian Allen Gradients book, thanks for the heads up.

However, I'm not sure  that it adds much to the discussion because it seems to be depicting a running total of mileages rather than the mileages as they are indicated at the trackside.  Not the same thing.

Also there are omissions, the MSJ&A, the CLC Altrincham- Chester, the LNWR line through Warrington Bank Quay Low Level are the ones I've noticed and I dare say they're others too which my knowledge doesn't encompass. 

The book is referenced for the 1940s nationalised railway not the current railway, but that isn't an issue for me. 

[Mike_Walker]

On 20/06/2021 at 19:48, PenrithBeacon said:

The WCML was made up of a number of independent companies until the formation of the LNWR in 1846 and the railway still carries their milepost numbering system to this day. An exception, there might be others, appears to be the M&B as the LNW placed a milepost numbered 189 miles or so in London Road Station. This might have been done because the LNWR didn't want to count down from Crewe to Manchester, the M&B started at Manchester and counted up to Crewe. It might still be there, perhaps Railtrack have left it alone. 

The odd thing of course, is that that on the other side of Piccadilly, the former MS&L (GCR) lines start at 0 from the buffer stops on the northern side of the station and get well up into the 180s (IIRC) at Marylebone.

Marylebone is 205m 77c at the buffer stops.  I think I'm right in saying it's the only London terminus that is nominally 0 - some, like Paddington, have slipped out into the country a short distance over the years.

 

When I was involved in the start up of Wrexham & Shropshire, one of the questions asked of the drivers in assessing their route knowledge was where did the mileages change and, just for fun, where was each "run" measured from?  There were many changes between Marylebone and Wrexham especially when you consider they could, and did, take any route between Leamington Spa and Oxley.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Mike_Walker

[Mike_Walker]

On 20/06/2021 at 21:36, Compound2632 said:

 

A consequence of the Midland re-mileposting was that it gave the company the distinction of the highest-numbered milepost in the country, on the Dentonholme goods lines - 308 miles or thereabouts - but later eclipsed by a Great Western re-mileposting giving 326¼ miles outside Penzance - via Bristol, though.

326 1/2 within the station itself.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Mike_Walker

[Edwin_m]

49 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Ok, bought the Ian Allen Gradients book, thanks for the heads up.

However, I'm not sure  that it adds much to the discussion because it seems to be depicting a running total of mileages rather than the mileages as they are indicated at the trackside.  Not the same thing.

Also there are omissions, the MSJ&A, the CLC Altrincham- Chester, the LNWR line through Warrington Bank Quay Low Level are the ones I've noticed and I dare say they're others too which my knowledge doesn't encompass. 

The book is referenced for the 1940s nationalised railway not the current railway, but that isn't an issue for me. 

I believe it matches the posted mileage, at least as it was at the time.  For example the WCML table (M1) gives "Route and MP mileage" starting at Euston, then at Golborne a second mileage row starts to show the MP mileage.  This then re-starts at zero at Preston and Lancaster as I noted in previous posts.  I haven't checked every table by any means, but if there are discrepancies elsewhere it may be a sign that the line has been re-miled in the last half-century.  

 

Agreed it's annoying that it only includes primary routes, or at least those that were primary routes at the time.  But it would be a much thicker book if it included the whole pre-Beeching network.  I used to share an office with the BR train performance team, who had a full set of gradient profiles (probably including many closed lines too) comprising multiple shelves of leather-bound volumes.   

[TheSignalEngineer]

For anyone interesred or has a week to spare, the mileages used present day are shown in the Sectional Appendix. The electronic version is available on the Network Rail website.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/industry-and-commercial/information-for-operators/national-electronic-sectional-appendix/

[HGR]

Another important distinction is that mileages are no longer used for charging purposes as was the case when first mandated by Parliamentary regulations. Now they are best thought of as a means to locate positions along the route.

 

As has been mentioned up-thread, junctions where the zero datum is located could be re-modelled. The datum remains where it was. The new junction point could then end up a chain or two either side of the zero.

 

Also, if you were using mileposts to log train performance, this can now leave a trap for the unwary. Consider for example Newton Hall north of Durham station on the ECML. The curve there was eased considerably many years ago when the junction was removed, allowing ECML trains to negotiate the new alignment at a much better speed than previously possible. The upshot of this is that there is now 15 chains 'missing' between the mileposts either end of the curve. The major realigning of the Darlington - Saltburn route around the British Steel plant at Redcar and the deviation at Redcar New Jn. resulted in the loss of over half a mile (47 ch.) from the milepost distances. 

 

[Compound2632]

Ahrons, writing in 1919, of the Midland expresses of the 1880s:

 

It will be noticed that the distance to Nottingham is given as 124 miles instead of the 123¾ miles usually taken The old distance has since been shortened by the making of a direct loop on the west side of Bedford station, which avoids the latter and the severe curve through it. But further, a re-measurement of the old main line took place about 18 years ago, which mysteriously resulted in about one quarter of a mile disappearing altogether. What became of this quarter of a mile I do not know unless it found its way to the "Lost Property Office."

 

At one period there were two series of mile-posts on the London-Bedford section from which travellers could make their choice. At present the 123½ mile-post is on the Platform of Nottingham Station, and will presumably remain there until somebody comes along and walks off with another piece of the main line. The late Mr Rous-Marten at one time got very worried over that quarter-mile, but gave it up eventually and wrote it off in his notebooks as a bad debt.

 

E.L. Ahrons, Locomotive and Train Working in the Latter Part of the Nineteenth Century Vol. 2 (Heffer, 1952) p. 89.

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

One thing I think hasn't been mentioned, but worth noting is that, today at least, the distance between whole mileposts is practically never one mile and the 1/4 mile posts are never equally spaced!

 

They may have been when they were installed, but they get knocked over and walked up and down the line when they get re-instated. It's usually only where they are firmly bolted to a immovable structure that they are exact. A good example is that if you calculate where the 326 1/2 MP should be at Penzance from Paddington and where it actually is, it is about 100m further away from London in reality.

 

It's why referencing a position to a milepost for a construction position is the last resort, we try to reference it to a signal or structure.

 

It's a great way of catching new trainee signalling designers out, they panic and think they've measured it wrong when they discover that the mile posts aren’t  402m apart or that actually position meterage is not the same as the calculated meterage.  It's sort of hard to get your head around when you first come across it, but you get used to it!

 

Simon

Edited June 24, 2021 by St. Simon

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

It's why referencing a position to a milepost for a construction position is the last resort, we try to reference it to a signal or structure.

 

... which would have horrified the Engineer's Department of any pre-Grouping company. Signals and structures can move about but the mileposts were supposed to be immutable. Though there is a tale of misplaced mileposts on either the London & Birmingham or the Grand Junction - I forget which - giving rise to claims of freakishly fast quarter-miles in the 1840s!

[PenrithBeacon]

45 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

One thing I think hasn't been mentioned, but worth noting is that, today at least, the distance between whole mileposts is practically never one mile and the 1/4 mile posts are never equally spaced!

 

They may have been when they were installed, but they get knocked over and walked up and down the line when they get re-instated. It's usually only where they are firmly bolted to a immovable structure that they are exact. A good example is that if you calculate where the 326 1/2 MP should be at Penzance from Paddington and where it actually is, it is about 100m further away from London than it actually is. 

 

It's why referencing a position to a milepost for a construction position is the last resort, we try to reference it to a signal or structure.

 

It's a great way of catching new trainee signalling designers out, they panic and think they've measured it wrong when they discover that the mile posts are 402m apart or that actually position meterage is not the same as the calculated meterage.  It's sort of hard to get your head around when you first come across it, but you get used to it!

 

Simon

Which implies that the modern railway doesn't care about mileposts, that they have little or no relevance.

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Ahrons, writing in 1919, of the Midland expresses of the 1880s:

 

It will be noticed that the distance to Nottingham is given as 124 miles instead of the 123¾ miles usually taken The old distance has since been shortened by the making of a direct loop on the west side of Bedford station, which avoids the latter and the severe curve through it. But further, a re-measurement of the old main line took place about 18 years ago, which mysteriously resulted in about one quarter of a mile disappearing altogether. What became of this quarter of a mile I do not know unless it found its way to the "Lost Property Office."

 

At one period there were two series of mile-posts on the London-Bedford section from which travellers could make their choice. At present the 123½ mile-post is on the Platform of Nottingham Station, and will presumably remain there until somebody comes along and walks off with another piece of the main line. The late Mr Rous-Marten at one time got very worried over that quarter-mile, but gave it up eventually and wrote it off in his notebooks as a bad debt.

 

E.L. Ahrons, Locomotive and Train Working in the Latter Part of the Nineteenth Century Vol. 2 (Heffer, 1952) p. 89.

Today Nottingham is at 123 miles 39 chains according to the Quail map (nominally measured at the midpoint of a through station) and the 123½ mile-post is still there.  But this is measured via Melton Mowbray, the shortest distance at the time, so a present day London-Nottingham train actually sees decreasing mileage over the last three quarters of a mile from Mansfield Junction.  However it is still travelling in the Down direction.  

 

I can't see any evidence of a change of mileage around Bedford that might relate to that lost quarter-mile.  I suspect during the remodelling in the 1980s someone decided to iron it out, which suggests there is a bit of track somewhere in Bedford that has a rather ambiguous chainage.  It probably isn't as much as a quarter mile now and possibly never was.  

[St. Simon]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Which implies that the modern railway doesn't care about mileposts, that they have little or no relevance.

Hi

 

That’s rubbish to be honest, it’s nothing to do with the ‘modern railway not caring’. Mileposts get moved throughout their life (maybe a dozen times in 150 years), either because they’ve fallen over or where they’ve been removed as part of engineering work. They only get moved by a few paces up or down for each one, (because of measurement tolerances), but if everyone gets moved by a little, that can end up being a big distance.

 

Obviously, Mileposts are still hugely important as a good general area reference.

 

However, as a signalling designer, I really don’t care that a signal is ‘x’ metres from a milepost, I care that is ‘x’ from the last signal. 

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... which would have horrified the Engineer's Department of any pre-Grouping company. Signals and structures can move about but the mileposts were supposed to be immutable. Though there is a tale of misplaced mileposts on either the London & Birmingham or the Grand Junction - I forget which - giving rise to claims of freakishly fast quarter-miles in the 1840s!

 

That may be true, but logically, a large heavy signal or large brick platform are less likely to be picked up and moved without people knowing, where as a small stone milepost can be moved a few paces as part of normal maintenance works.

 

Now, don’t get me started on Chains being an even worse unit of measurement! 

 

Simon 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

Today Nottingham is at 123 miles 39 chains according to the Quail map (nominally measured at the midpoint of a through station) and the 123½ mile-post is still there.  But this is measured via Melton Mowbray, the shortest distance at the time, so a present day London-Nottingham train actually sees decreasing mileage over the last three quarters of a mile from Mansfield Junction.  However it is still travelling in the Down direction.  

 

That 123 mi 39 ch is just what the Distance Diagram (Sheet 21A, 1913 edition) shows. However, to confuse matters more, the centre-line of the 1904 station is a little to the west of the centre-line of the original station! I'm fairly sure that when he's writing about that milepost, its the re-built station Ahrons has in mind. The distance from St Pancras to Nottingham via the Midland Counties line is a whisker over 126 miles; the Distance Diagram gives Lenton South Junction as 124 mi 60 ch via Nottingham and 125 mi 29 ch via Trent.

 

17 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

I can't see any evidence of a change of mileage around Bedford that might relate to that lost quarter-mile.  I suspect during the remodelling in the 1980s someone decided to iron it out, which suggests there is a bit of track somewhere in Bedford that has a rather ambiguous chainage.  It probably isn't as much as a quarter mile now and possibly never was.  

 

I wonder if this is a consequence of a reversal in the direction of the mileposts. Was the original zero of the Leicester & Hitchin at Wigston North Junction? Where was the original milepost zero of the London Extension? Bedford or St Pancras? For some years, I think all roads were up to Derby but by 1857, with the opening of the Leicester & Hitchin, up was towards London, except for the West Road, per James Allport's instruction [Midland Railway Study Centre Item 88-PAL-042]. But did that correspond to the mileposts?

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

Mileposts get moved throughout their life (maybe a dozen times in 150 years), either because they’ve fallen over or where they’ve been removed as part of engineering work. They only get moved by a few paces up or down for each one, (because of measurement tolerances), but if everyone gets moved by a little, that can end up being a big distance.

 

Now, don’t get me started on Chains being an even worse unit of measurement! 

 

Now I want a time machine, a surveyor's chain, a couple of assistants, and a lineside pass for Wellington Bank in April 1904. Perhaps one could then get to the bottom of that quarter-mile in 8.8 seconds!