Cofga Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 So I just received my new Bachmann SR PLV in dark Southern Maunsell green. Interestingly it is darker than my Hornby dark Mansell green coaches, I just put it down to extra layers of varnish, but that is not the question. My real question is, where did they place these PLVs in the train? Were they behind the loco and in front of the coaches or did they put them back at the rear of the train after all the coaches? A third option would be to do both. Was there any standard practice or was it just up to the guard? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 It would not be up to the guard. The formation of each and every passenger train was set out in the carriage working programme. Where a van would be in the formation depended on, among other things, whether the van was to be added to the train or removed from it en route and what it carried - mail, newspapers, passenger luggage or whatever. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 You need to look at photos, if you can’t access CWNs, and that gets surprisingly challenging for the inter-war period. A good place to start is by looking at the Disused Stations website for locations in your area a- a rich source of train formation photos. A key decider in many cases was where the best unloading points were on the platforms at the busiest stations - and, where the run was terminus to terminus, the least-worst place to have to schlepp the contents of the van the entire length of the platform! Victoria boat trains traditionally had the vans at the buffer-stop end at Victoria, for instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cofga Posted July 21, 2021 Author Share Posted July 21, 2021 OK, then it sounds like option 3, either end depending on the conditions. I guess the closest station to me would be Plymouth since I am in the US. I did several internet searches looking for photos but did not find any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 Wasn't Padstow the nearest SR station to the USA? I looked on "disused stations" for Padstow, and there are oodles of photos, none of which shows an SR-type van in a passenger train. Sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 A couple of trains in 'Southern Seam in the west Country' have vans on the 'country' end of Padstow trains ......... which doesn't prove that they weren't marshalled at t'other end at different times, of course. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 There are photos of not-SR type vans, ex-LSWR ones, at the head or the tail of trains going to and from Padstow. I just couldn’t find 1930s pictures showing the SR type on passenger trains. It would be interesting to chart build-dates of the SR ones, because I’ve noticed that many 1930s photo still show pre-grouping 6W vans in the role we are thinking of (some were even fitted-up to allow their use in PP trains). My surmise is that these older vans were culled either sequentially by area, or sequentially from the fastest trains downwards. It tends to suggest to me that the ‘typical model railway scheme’ of all SR vans on passenger trains didn’t really apply until post-WW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 There's vans an' there's vans ! ............ the six-wheeler were largely BRAKE vans and the Southern didn't produce any replacements 'til shortly before the war. Yes there was a massive building programme of passenger van building ( with & without guard's compt.) and the only pre-grouping vans surviving at nationalisation were a handful of WW1 Ambulance Car rebuilds, a handful of Specie ( bullion ) vans and a handful of Post Vans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) Not by any means all brake vans, there are plenty of photos showing old 6W milk and fruit vans, and what I assume started out as luggage vans, with no brake compartment, being used as utility vans in passenger trains. What were the dates of the SR 4W passenger-rated van build-batches? I’m thinking they may have replaced old crocks on a near one-for-one basis, so that might give clues to how many oldies were still in service at particular dates. Edited July 22, 2021 by Nearholmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 They were built well into BR days ..... by which time the old crocks were long gone ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watfordtmc Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 Nearholmer raises an interesting point concerning how long pre-grouping vans lasted on the Southern Railway. I cannot answer that particular point, but after some searching through Southern Couches (Ref 1), a sort of time line for the Maunsell ‘family’ of passenger vans up to 1939 looks like this: SEC ‘Cavell’ Vans – 45 by 1923 Covcars/CCT – 50 in 1928, 240 by 1939 Scenery/GUV – 10 in 1928, 20 by 1939 GBL/Corr PMV – 74 in 1930, 119 by 1939 (I can only make the numbers add up to 119, but King states 120 built) Catox/SCV – 50 in 1930 PLV/PMV – 50 in 1934, 445 by 1939 Van C/BY – 50 in 1937, 200 by 1939 Van B/B – 50 in 1938, 100 by 1939 (It would be so much easier if RM Web supported simple table formatting !!!!!) From which I infer that what we now think of as ubiquitous Southern vans only really began to make an impact on the Southern ‘scene’ from the mid-1930’s, whilst SR Passenger Brakes only make their presence felt in the late 1930’s. Reference 1. An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches, King M, OPC (Ian Allan) 2003. Regards TMc 25/07/2021 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted July 26, 2021 Share Posted July 26, 2021 The Special Cattle Vans had very, very little in common with any of the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watfordtmc Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 But they had wooden bodies, steel underframes and vacuum brakes…! I did umm and err about including the Catox, but it was no trouble to include them, and you know how it is – if I hadn’t included them someone would have complained that they had been omitted. I’ve looked at little bit more into the Covcar and Luggage/PLV deliveries as below: COVCAR Nos. Quantity Delivered 2023 – 2072 50 Mar 1928 - May 1928 2251 – 2280 30 Apr 1929 – Jul 1929 2371 – 2460 & 2241 – 2250 100 Apr 1931 – Feb 1932 2491 – 2500 10 Feb 1933 – Apr 1933 1731 – 1780 50 Nov 1938 – Dec 1938 LUGGAGE/PLV Nos. Quantity Delivered 2181 – 2230 50 Oct 1934 – Mar 1935 1054 – 1250 197 Apr 1935 – Apr 1937 1921 – 1970 50 Oct 1938 – Dec 1938 1251 – 1358 108 Feb 1939 – Jul 1939 1359 – 1398 40 Jul 1939 – Dec 1939 Reference 1. An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches, King M, OPC (Ian Allan) 2003. Regards TMc 27/07/2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted July 27, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2021 This looks to me a familiar scenario, as a LMR-watcher. The Southern didn't really look like what one expects the Southern to look like until BR(S) days. A lot of which is down to bias in the photographic record. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 (edited) Just to confuse things further, you could get vans in the middle of the train. Certainly in pre-electrification days on the Central section, where trains would be divided into two (for example one portion for Bognor and one for Portsmouth), each portion could include vans and you'd end up with the leading van of the second portion coupled behind the last carriage of the first. Since the coaches didn't have gangways having a non-corridor van in the middle of the train didn't matter. Edited July 27, 2021 by pete_mcfarlane 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watfordtmc Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 Back in the day Nearholmer raised this point: On 22/07/2021 at 18:46, Nearholmer said: There are photos of not-SR type vans, ex-LSWR ones, at the head or the tail of trains going to and from Padstow. I just couldn’t find 1930s pictures showing the SR type on passenger trains. It would be interesting to chart build-dates of the SR ones, because I’ve noticed that many 1930s photo still show pre-grouping 6W vans in the role we are thinking of (some were even fitted-up to allow their use in PP trains). To which I replied: On 25/07/2021 at 17:24, watfordtmc said: Nearholmer raises an interesting point concerning how long pre-grouping vans lasted on the Southern Railway. I cannot answer that particular point... Which just goes to show that I was talking out of my posterior, as a further rummage around my bookshelf revealed that I have Gordon Weddell tomes that give us some pointers as far as LSWR vehicles are concerned. As @Compound2632 would say, I should never trust my own word… I have reviewed 5 groups of vehicles: 30’ Passenger Brake Vans (or BZ in BR parlance) . 86 vehicles received SR numbers (Ref 1). 44’ Passenger Guard Vans (B or BG) . 161 vehicles received SR numbers (Ref 1). 32’ Special Milk Vans – 6 wheeled (PMV). The whole fleet (16 vehicles) received SR numbers, but a number had received modifications to make them suitable for aeroplane traffic during the First World War (Ref 2). 24’ Vans – a large group of several varieties, the PLV’s of the LSWR. 378 vehicles received SR numbers (Ref 2). Carriage Trucks – A very diverse group. 111 Open Carriage Trucks (OCT), a type the SR did not build, received SR numbers, together with 58 Covered Carriage Trucks (CCT). The numbers below combine both types (Ref 2). Year No. Withdrawn Withdrawn 30’ PBV 44’ PGV 32’ Milk 24’ Vans Carriage Trucks 1923 1 1924 9* - 6 1925 10* 1 6 1926 - 2 9* 2 1927 2* - 3 2 1928 2 - 6 11 1929 - - 3 8 1930 3 1 7 9 1931 3 1 5 31 1932 - - 17 16 1933 4 16 19 14 1934 1 24 1 13 7 1935 7 36 - 24 9 1936 14 37* - 37 17 1937 8 27* 1 24 9 1938 4 17* 2 29 20 1939 18 3 28 - 1940 1 1 66 1 1941 8 83 1 1942 2 1947 1 * Includes transfers to the Isle of Wight. From which it would seem the Southern had something of a brake van crises in the mid-1930’s, and that 24’ vans made up a much larger proportion of the fleet then we appreciate these days. However, the withdrawal numbers for the 24’ vans and Carriage Trucks seem to correlate with the delivery of the new Covcars from 1928 and PLV’s from 1934. Basically the Southern Railway was a much less homogenous entity than the post-war Southern Region photographic record leads us to believe as @Compound2632 has noted. A, sadly posthumous, vote of thanks to Gordon Weddell for his diligence in recording the data, and his persistence in getting it published. References LSWR Carriages Volume 1 1838 – 1900, Weddell G, Wild Swan (Didcot) 1992 LSWR Carriages Volume 3 Non-Passenger Carriage Stock, Weddell G, Kestrel Railway Books 2005. Regards TMc 29/07/2021 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted July 29, 2021 Share Posted July 29, 2021 Ah, interesting, and seems to confirm my suspicion. The 24ft ones, I presume, were 4-wheelers. 1930s SR layouts aren’t as common as they used to be, and it might actually be interesting to build one of this ‘transition era’ that seems to have been largely forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted July 29, 2021 Share Posted July 29, 2021 15 hours ago, watfordtmc said: ..... 111 Open Carriage Trucks (OCT), a type the SR did not build, ....... ..... though the container wagons could be - and were - used as Open Carriage Trucks ( branded as such in B.R. days ). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watfordtmc Posted July 29, 2021 Share Posted July 29, 2021 @Nearholmer Yes, the 24’ vans were 4 wheel vehicles. At risk of prolonging a very off-topic veer from the OP’s original question; long before Gordon Weddell had his books produced, he contributed a long running series of LSWR coaching stock drawings to the late Model Railway Constructor (MRC). If anyone’s interested enough, the references are: 30’ PBV – LSWR Bogie Coaches – 11, Weddell G, MRC November 1973, vol 40, no. 475, pp 417 notes, pp 419 drawing. (Despite the article title, this does cover the 30’ PBV’s). 44’ PGV – LSWR 44ft Passenger Guard’s Van, Weddell G, MRC November 1981, vol 48, no. 571, pp 754-755. 32’ Milk – LSWR 32ft Special Milk Van, Weddell G, MRC Oct 1979, vol 46, no. 546, pp 580-581. 24’ Vans – LSWR 4-wheel Luggage Vans, Weddell G, MRC April 1976, vol 43, no 504, pp 142-145. This also covers the 22’ vans. Two of the CCT’s were also drawn in the late Modellers’ Back Track (MBT): A Brace of CCT’s, Bunce P, MBT August-September 1993, vol 3. No. 3, pp 160-161. These articles do not contain the detail of the books, but might be more accessible. Regards TMc 29/07/2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted July 31, 2021 Share Posted July 31, 2021 (edited) On 29/07/2021 at 05:32, Nearholmer said: 1930s SR layouts aren’t as common as they used to be, and it might actually be interesting to build one of this ‘transition era’ that seems to have been largely forgotten. Look at my layout thread. 1930's exLSWR. Warning only the track laid so far. Edit just can't smell tonite. Edited July 31, 2021 by N15class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watfordtmc Posted August 1, 2021 Share Posted August 1, 2021 23 hours ago, N15class said: Look at my layout thread. 1930's exLSWR. Warning only the track laid so far. Edit just can't smell tonite. I did. Very interesting - did I spot a 24' van in one of the images ?! Regards TMc 01/08/2021 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 On 31/07/2021 at 21:17, watfordtmc said: did I spot a 24' van in one of the images ?! You did, I scratch built it from plasticard a few years ago. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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