Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Ron Ron Ron]

The list of new EV models being announced keeps on growing.

 

The all-new mk2 Opel / Vauxhall Mokka will be available as a BEV.

 

 

 

[Ian J.]

One thing that seems to remain constant at the moment is a lack of innovation around the design of an electric car. Most seem to be just EV versions of existing ideas, with a tweak here or there. I wonder if we will ever see any truly new thinking on how a car can be designed without having to take into account engine/gearbox/drive train?

[rocor]

7 minutes ago, Ian J. said:

One thing that seems to remain constant at the moment is a lack of innovation around the design of an electric car. Most seem to be just EV versions of existing ideas, with a tweak here or there. I wonder if we will ever see any truly new thinking on how a car can be designed without having to take into account engine/gearbox/drive train?

 

Many of the current electric cars in production share their chassis/body with ICE variants of the same vehicle. they are not clean sheet designs.

 

That does not apply to the vehicles that Tesla currently has in production. Maybe Tesla retained a conventional appearance  for those, in order not to discombobulate the potential customers of their electric cars more than was necessary.

[TheQ]

You still have to put humans in cars, and their stuff.. You still have to meet crash tests, no matter what will happen with electric motors the car will still have a wheel in each corner, an inboard drive train because hub motors are too heavy, glass to see out.

 

The biggest change is self driving cars. eventually you won't need a licence to drive one because it won't be allowed. The car will safely do it. that removes all the visible steering gear freeing up cabin space.

 

I'm expecting to be able to get into the car at home, tell it to drive to Scotland. meantime I'll be asleep in the cabin letting it do the work..

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, Ian J. said:

One thing that seems to remain constant at the moment is a lack of innovation around the design of an electric car. Most seem to be just EV versions of existing ideas, with a tweak here or there. I wonder if we will ever see any truly new thinking on how a car can be designed without having to take into account engine/gearbox/drive train?

 

The Leaf even has a transmission tunnel. Although it houses a circuit breaker rather than a transmission.

[Pete the Elaner]

13 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

The Leaf even has a transmission tunnel. Although it houses a circuit breaker rather than a transmission.

 

My Elan also has what looks like a transmission tunnel, even though it was always designed as a front-engined front wheel drive.

The chassis is there. Most modern cars may have a monocoque design, but maybe the designers believed that a centre member is the best way to provide rigidity?

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, Ian J. said:

One thing that seems to remain constant at the moment is a lack of innovation around the design of an electric car. Most seem to be just EV versions of existing ideas, with a tweak here or there. I wonder if we will ever see any truly new thinking on how a car can be designed without having to take into account engine/gearbox/drive train?

Like the i3 you mean?

 

One of the biggest draws to us back in 2013 when launched/announced was the fact the i3 departed from the conventional and designed from (literary) tyres up as an EV......and it worked, and still does.

Edited June 26, 2020 by boxbrownie

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, rocor said:

 

Maybe Tesla retained a conventional appearance  for those, in order not to discombobulate the potential customers of their electric cars more than was necessary.

Again.......like the i3 you mean? 

[Ron Ron Ron]

4 hours ago, rocor said:

 

Many of the current electric cars in production share their chassis/body with ICE variants of the same vehicle. they are not clean sheet designs.

 

 

However on the other hand, a number of the new and forthcoming models are indeed clean sheet designs, but designed from the beginning to accommodate different power plants, ICE, hybrid and BEV.

 

Others, such as the VW's  MEB platform, are designed exclusively for BEV vehicles.

 

.

[PatB]

I suspect there is also a fairly conservative mindset amongst buyers. A car is supposed to look and feel a certain way. Anything that does not risks resistance from a goodly percentage of its potential market. 

 

Just remember all the jelly mould comments about the Ford Sierra in 1982. The fact that it was a lot closer to what cars would look like a decade or so later than were its contemporaries, or the fact that its mechanical underpinnings were older than the Pyramids, didn't cut any ice at the time and, at least initially, Ford probably lost sales as a result.

 

A clean sheet EV design with everything optimised would be considerably more radical. It might well be a great car. But would (enough) people buy it in today's market? 

[boxbrownie]

8 hours ago, PatB said:

 

 

Just remember all the jelly mould comments about the Ford Sierra in 1982. The fact that it was a lot closer to what cars would look like a decade or so later than were its contemporaries, or the fact that its mechanical underpinnings were older than the Pyramids, 

Really...which bits?

 

The Sierra would out handle a BMW 5 series around Lommel Test track handling circuit, like Bob Lutz said at its launch to the press “the only thing holding this car back is the blue badge on the front”...........

 

As for all the rumours and press reports about the rear floor pan being weak in an accident we invited the press to an event where we lifted a Sierra up on a crane by its rear towing eye (not a tow bar) until it was vertical and spinning.....never heard that again did we?

[Fenman]

18 hours ago, Ian J. said:

One thing that seems to remain constant at the moment is a lack of innovation around the design of an electric car. Most seem to be just EV versions of existing ideas, with a tweak here or there. I wonder if we will ever see any truly new thinking on how a car can be designed without having to take into account engine/gearbox/drive train?

 

As others have written, it's not a "constant" (if, by that, you mean universal). Manufacturers seem to have taken two routes: some, like Mercedes, seem to have decided the market is for vehicles that look and perform as much like an ICE as possible, so as not to frighten more conservative buyers; others, like VW, have developed an entirely separate range designed from the rubber up to take advantage of what a specially-designed EV architecture can offer (the microbus is an interesting hybrid, seeming to take advantage of what can be done with electric traction and autonomous driving, but in a package that is pleasingly retro).

 

The market is still incredibly immature. And it's not helped by the glacial pace at which some manufacturers seem to be entering it (I have read reports that some of this is deliberate; by delaying the launch of EVs until 2021, they create pent-up demand which will artificially inflate the number of EVs sold in that year, which in turn will help them to meet their new targets relating to CO2 emissions across their entire range (ie, they are gaming the system, which is perversely incentivising them to delay until 2021 the introduction of EV models in competition with their ICE models)).

 

I'm in the market for a new car at the moment, and I'm minded to go electric -- my longest ever daily drive (which is only a tiny proportion of my driving) is 100 or 120 miles in total. I can easily recharge overnight, starting every day with a "full tank" and so with maximum range available. I'd be very happy with, say, 220, 240 miles of range, though 300 would make me feel very safe. I'm not interested in having an enormous and heavy SUV; it's normally me and a couple of greyhounds in the back. I'm also not much interested in paying extra for a swanky prestigious badge. The choice in the market is suprisingly small right now, though will get very much bigger in early 2021 (VW ID.3, ID.4, Skoda Enyaq, Citroen C4, etc). Right now it seems to be between a Hyundai eKona or a Kia eNiro -- both of which were fun on the test drive, but seem a bit pricey for what they are. 

 

First world problems, right?

 

Paul

[PatB]

26 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Really...which bits?

 

The Sierra would out handle a BMW 5 series around Lommel Test track handling circuit, like Bob Lutz said at its launch to the press “the only thing holding this car back is the blue badge on the front”...........

 

As for all the rumours and press reports about the rear floor pan being weak in an accident we invited the press to an event where we lifted a Sierra up on a crane by its rear towing eye (not a tow bar) until it was vertical and spinning.....never heard that again did we?

Well, the Kent, Pinto and Cologne engines and their associated gearboxes were very familiar and should have reassured the masses, as should the Mac strut front end. Nonetheless, the car as a whole got an awful lot of stick because, by 1982 standards, it "looked weird". 

I'm not saying it was a bad car. My point is exactly that there was, and likely still is, a deep conservatism in the market, and a car that isn't what potential buyers expect will probably face more resistance than it needs to, often for completely irrational reasons and regardless of whether it's any good or not. 

[John Harris]

18 hours ago, TheQ said:

You still have to put humans in cars, and their stuff.. You still have to meet crash tests, no matter what will happen with electric motors the car will still have a wheel in each corner, an inboard drive train because hub motors are too heavy, glass to see out.

 

The biggest change is self driving cars. eventually you won't need a licence to drive one because it won't be allowed. The car will safely do it. that removes all the visible steering gear freeing up cabin space.

 

I'm expecting to be able to get into the car at home, tell it to drive to Scotland. meantime I'll be asleep in the cabin letting it do the work..

 

Sadly, I suspect such vehicles are years away.  Several companies have cars with self-driving systems that could achieve what you want, but (you knew there was a but coming), I don't think any could cope with safely sharing the road with human drivers.

 

If you have an idle moment, go to YouTube and search for 'driver fails', you will be presented with numerous dashcam videos of drivers doing such irrational things that no computer could cope, other than slowing to 5mph 'just in case'.

 

jh

[John Harris]

Having seen a few reviews this looks like a decent EV, sadly there are no plans to export it, though as the Chinese home market is so large I can understand why the priority is there.

 

A review here  It is interesting, though I suppose unsurprising, that XPeng actually have a Tesla on hand at the presentation to potential customers.

 

By the way, Tesla might have a UK factory soon too, judging locally they are selling well.

 

jh

[black and decker boy]

The auto pilot feature on the Model 3 works well, now that I’ve adjusted to it. It will happily drive me unaided for long distances, braking and accelerating to my preset limit and maintaining headway to other vehicles. I self steers. 
 

it does not do lane changing (it’s a £4500 upgrade for full self drive mode) or follow sat nav

 

it has a driver reminder safety feature every few minutes to keep you alert and hand on the wheel

 

now we are summer, battery life does seem better by maybe 15% compared to winter.

 

also confirmation from HMRC that company car BIK on a BEV is 0% for 20/21 tax year.

[Reorte]

23 hours ago, TheQ said:

You still have to put humans in cars, and their stuff.. You still have to meet crash tests, no matter what will happen with electric motors the car will still have a wheel in each corner, an inboard drive train because hub motors are too heavy, glass to see out.

THat's really the point, most of the shape of a car (not all) is really dictated by the same features that apply to all cars, electric or otherwise. Sure, you don't need a radiator or exhaust for an electric but to take the front end for example, even if the motor's smaller (is it?) aerodynamics and crashworthness regulations are going to mean massive departures are unlikely. And whilst some have called it conservatism I don't see anything wrong with not being different for the sake of it (as opposed to whenere there's a good practical reason).

 

Quote

 

The biggest change is self driving cars. eventually you won't need a licence to drive one because it won't be allowed. The car will safely do it. that removes all the visible steering gear freeing up cabin space.

 

I'm expecting to be able to get into the car at home, tell it to drive to Scotland. meantime I'll be asleep in the cabin letting it do the work..

 

That's what the train's for.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Reorte

[TheQ]

22 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

 

That's what the train's for.

Except it's 1/2 hour each end from station  to where I wish to go, to with no public transport,  the train requires 3 or 4 changes enroute . The best train time with taxi either end  is about a hour longer than the best, I've done it by car..  The train price is about the price of the fuel I'd use but two taxis?  Ouch.. 

[Reorte]

52 minutes ago, TheQ said:

Except it's 1/2 hour each end from station  to where I wish to go, to with no public transport,  the train requires 3 or 4 changes enroute . The best train time with taxi either end  is about a hour longer than the best, I've done it by car..  The train price is about the price of the fuel I'd use but two taxis?  Ouch.. 

 

Fair enough, often a problem. Would be nice if there could be a bit more integration with trains and car; I'm generally not that fussed about time, and I'm not keen at all on self-driving cars, but I'd be up for better integration.

[Ian Morgan]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

... even if the motor's smaller (is it?)

 

When I open the bonnet on the Hyundai Ioniq, it seems just as full as the old Mondeo was. It is just that I do not know what all the bits are now.

 

 

[Reorte]

I'm wondering what it needs a standard car battery for (is that a hybrid and a lead/acid battery better for starting the engine?)

 

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

 

Fair enough, often a problem. Would be nice if there could be a bit more integration with trains and car; I'm generally not that fussed about time, and I'm not keen at all on self-driving cars, but I'd be up for better integration.

Oh here’s something off the wall......Motor Rail.......bet that’s never been done before 

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by boxbrownie

[boxbrownie]

45 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I'm wondering what it needs a standard car battery for (is that a hybrid and a lead/acid battery better for starting the engine?)

 

For running ancillaries while the main traction battery is “offline” parked, and for starting the systems/ECUs when turning the car on.

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Ian Morgan said:

 

When I open the bonnet on the Hyundai Ioniq, it seems just as full as the old Mondeo was. It is just that I do not know what all the bits are now.

 

 

They do seem to have made a bit of a meal of that.......open the bonnet on the i3 and there is a small trunk space which underneath are the steering system, AC rad, ancillary battery (tiny) and puncture repair stuff, open the boot and the traction motor (as is also the ICE on the REX version) is hidden below the boot floor completely undetectable.

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by boxbrownie

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

Oh here’s something off the wall......Motor Rail.......bet that’s never been done before 

 

Something I always liked the sound of but even if there's the market for it I could imagine it struggling to fit in to today's railway.