Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[raymw]

I've not seen the video to which you refer, but I do not understand how you have understood whatever was being shown. How is electrical energy related to dyno fuel?  how much is a gallon of electricity? Is it  selected values in an attempt to prove a point?

[black and decker boy]

You can convert the energy in a gallon of petrol/diesel into KWh. Internet suggests 33kwh per gallon of petrol and 38kwh per gallon of diesel.

 

assuming 45mpg, that’s 1.2 to 1.4 kWh per mile.

 

my Tesla does 3 to 4 Miles per KWh on motorways (even more around town)

[Ian Morgan]

In my Hyundai Ioniq, I keep it in Eco mode and average about 5.2 miles per kWh. However, the 28kWh battery is, according to your figures, like having a fuel tank of less than 1 gallon capacity. I can do 120 miles in winter and 150 miles in summer on a full charge, so again, with those figures I am getting more than 150 miles per gallon equivalent in the summer.

 

However, the real comparison should be the amount of CO produced per mile from burning petro chemicals versus generating electricity, plus all the other environmental problems from driling for oil, mining for battery ingredients, etc. I suppose actually building IC cars and EVs work out as equally environmentally destructive. With all these factors, calculating a true comparison is close to impossible.

 

[johnofwessex]

8 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

You can convert the energy in a gallon of petrol/diesel into KWh. Internet suggests 33kwh per gallon of petrol and 38kwh per gallon of diesel.

 

assuming 45mpg, that’s 1.2 to 1.4 kWh per mile.

 

my Tesla does 3 to 4 Miles per KWh on motorways (even more around town)

 

I used to have a Daihatsu Charade 

 

a 60 mile journey I did regularly took about 90 mins & used about a gallon of fuel - 33kwh

 

Assuming 25% thermal efficiency that's about 8kwh at the wheel or 5 miles/kwh for a small light vehicle

[Guest]

15 hours ago, raymw said:

I've not seen the video to which you refer, but I do not understand how you have understood whatever was being shown. How is electrical energy related to dyno fuel?  how much is a gallon of electricity? Is it  selected values in an attempt to prove a point?

 

By converting EV miles per £ into gallons.

[Enterprisingwestern]

15 hours ago, Ian Morgan said:

In my Hyundai Ioniq, I keep it in Eco mode and average about 5.2 miles per kWh. However, the 28kWh battery is, according to your figures, like having a fuel tank of less than 1 gallon capacity. I can do 120 miles in winter and 150 miles in summer on a full charge, so again, with those figures I am getting more than 150 miles per gallon equivalent in the summer.

 

However, the real comparison should be the amount of CO produced per mile from burning petro chemicals versus generating electricity, plus all the other environmental problems from driling for oil, mining for battery ingredients, etc. I suppose actually building IC cars and EVs work out as equally environmentally destructive. With all these factors, calculating a true comparison is close to impossible.

 

 

The real comparison never will appear, as this would include all the related environmental and financial issues from when the pen was first put to paper to design and build a car right through it's career as a motored vehicle and onto scrapping. There are many things governments and motor manufacturers don't want you to know.

The most economical car is the first Ford Model T (or substitute early car of choice) off the production line, if it was still being used (impractical I know) it would have had the smallest environmental footprint of any car.

 

Mike.

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

"There are many things governments and motor manufacturers don't want you to know.

Mike.

There are many things that consumers don't want to know, either. Buying an EV is governed by many factors, price, running costs, green credentials, etc. People will often concentrate on the positives of any purchase decision and ignore potential downsides.

 

[raymw]

15 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

By converting EV miles per £ into gallons.

So, more or less completely meaningless, other than being a 'feel good' factor.

Edited November 22, 2020 by raymw

[Fenman]

8 hours ago, raymw said:

So, more or less completely meaningless, other than being a 'feel good' factor.

Goodness, you don’t like EVs, do you?!

 
It’s just calculating the energy used in the ICE systems in kWh and, equally as easily, enabling EV consumption to be converted into a mpg equivalent. 
 

What it does is enable a like-for-like comparison, using mpg as a single measurement system — a system which has acquired familiarity over the decades. Which, of course, is exactly why ICE manufacturers and fan-boys alike dislike it.

 

It does not enable a “whole life” comparison of energy required between ICE vehicles versus BEVs. But the complexity of those calculations, along with the massive differences caused by the truly vast range of uses that we individuals make of our cars, means those calculations are largely theoretical models. Mpg-equivalent is a handy (quick and dirty) comparison of economy in individual use.

 

Experience tells me the mpg I achieve in any particular car is likely to be mid-way between the hopelessly optimistic figure claimed by a manufacturer using their standardised tests, and the actual figure achieved by petrolhead (sic) motoring journalists who are thrashing the living daylights out of the cars they drive. But it’s still a useful measure to me.

 

Isn't the appropriate maxim “dim illumination is better than none at all”?

 

Paul

 

 

[Guest]

On 22/11/2020 at 08:01, Enterprisingwestern said:

The most economical car is the first Ford Model T (or substitute early car of choice) off the production line, if it was still being used (impractical I know) it would have had the smallest environmental footprint of any car.

 

I imagine over a century of running a very dirty 20mpg would have been overtaken by something more economical even allowing for its manufacture.

[black and decker boy]

Well, whatever the doomongers think about EVs, I like mine and find no issues with range anxiety.

 

I'm on a renewables only supply at home so it’s powered by clean electricity and creates no exhaust emissions. It has a range of 300+ Miles and costs under 4p per mile to run. It doesn’t require oil or other fossil fuels, it needs little maintenance. It regenerates under braking, saving on brake wear and adding energy back into the battery.

 

But those who don’t want to hear that, no problem, everything is about choice.
 

I know that EVs are not a solution for all, they remain more expensive and decent range is in the newer models ruling out much in the second hand market. Charging infrastructure is available when you know where to look and will continue to grow but sorting out on street parking is a task that needs alot of investment to open up the market far more widely.

 

The same issues apply to hydrogen where the manufacturing, distribution and point of sale infrastructure will need to be created before any meaningful rollout.

Edited November 23, 2020 by black and decker boy
Typo

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

The same issues apply to hydrogen where the manufacturing, distribution and point of sale infrastructure will need to be created before any meaningful rollout.

 

Interesting that Ineos are looking at hydrogen to power their Landrover. The company that makes the car will also make the fuel.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/23/ineos-signs-hydrogen-fuel-cell-deal-for-its-off-road-vehicle

[Ron Ron Ron]

10 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

Well, whatever the doomongers think about EVs..........

 

It doesn't matter what they think, they are coming whether they like it or not.

The motor manufacturing industry is spending literally £££$$$€€€ Billions on developing new EV's and building the factories to produce them.

It's not a theory or some far fetched vision.. It's a reality and the process is in full flow.

 

The current sales figures for new cars demonstrate the gradual acceleration in sales of EV's and various forms of Hybrid.

This is based on what is still a fairly limited range of vehicles (some 2 dozen different EV cars available in the UK).

With double that number of model designs available within 18 months to 2 years from now, the volumes and market share will start to grow exponentially.

 

SMMT UK sales figures for October 2020.

 

BEV  9,335  (up from 3,162 in Oct 2019)    =   6.6% of the market (up from 2.2% in Oct 2019)

Hybrid + Plug-in Hybrid  18,813  (up from 11,069 in Oct 2019)   =  13.3% of the market (up from 7.7% in Oct 2019)

Mild Hybrid (both petrol & diesel)  22,152  (up from 6,394 in Oct 2019).  =  15.7% of the market (up from 4.4% in Oct 2019)

 

Combined, BEV, PHEV, Hybrid, Mild-Hybrid, accounted for 35.6% of the new cars sold in the UK in Oct 2020, compared to 14.3% for the same month last year.

Diesel sales (pure diesel, non-hybrid) accounted for only 14.9%.

Petrol slumped from 61.9% in Oct 2019, to 49.5% in Oct 2020

(note: total sales only slightly down, 1.6%, from Oct 2019)

 

Year to date: 

BEV  75,946  =  5.5% of the total market (up from 1.4% in 2019)

 

 

The figures for the whole of the EU - Q3 (third quarter) 2020

 

Market share by fuel/powertrain type.

Petrol  47.5%   (down -24.3% on Q3 2019)

Diesel  27.8%.  (down -13.7% on Q3 2019)

Hybrid 12.4%.  

BEV       9.9%    (up +132.3% on Q3 2019)

 

Personally, across Europe as a whole, I'd expect to see BEV hitting 15 to 20% next year and maybe a third by 2024.

VW's volume produced iD3 has only just started deliveries. Production will ramp up next year and the iD4 will shortly join it in the new year.

They has some 20 plus models coming across the VW groups's volume brands (Audi, Skoda, SEAT, Porsche, VW).

Fiat shortly to start deliveries of the all-electric only, new model Fiat 500.

Tesla's large German plant is only under construction at the moment, but in 2 years time it should be churning out large numbers of the Euro version of the Model Y and the Model 3.

BMW, Mercedes, PSA group, Citroen, Nissan, Volvo and their offshoot Polestar have started delivering the first of a wave of new models.

A growing swathe of shorter range city runarounds from the likes of Honda, Mini, Mazda, Dacia etc, 

Plus, what have Hyundai/Kia got up their sleeves, to follow on from their successful lead into the EV market?

 

.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

[Nick C]

Here's a question for the experts - do modern EVs store their charging history, and can it be interrogated?

 

When I do get to buy one, it'll inevitably be second-hand (No way I can afford a new one at £20-30k+) - with an IC car I know what to look for to see if it's been well looked after, but with an EV it seems that the most important thing is going to be the condition of the battery - and whether previous owners have looked after it or have abused it with too many rapid charges etc, so I'm hoping there will be some way to check?

[Ron Ron Ron]

Due to increased interest and demand for news and features about electric cars, leading UK motoring magazine, Autocar, have launched a dedicated magazine site, Autocar Electric.

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/electric-cars

 

 

 

 

.

[298]

46 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Here's a question for the experts - do modern EVs store their charging history, and can it be interrogated?

 

When I do get to buy one, it'll inevitably be second-hand (No way I can afford a new one at £20-30k+) - with an IC car I know what to look for to see if it's been well looked after, but with an EV it seems that the most important thing is going to be the condition of the battery - and whether previous owners have looked after it or have abused it with too many rapid charges etc, so I'm hoping there will be some way to check?

 

"Abusing" isn't quite the same as the definition used to describe a Chav abusing a £500 20 the old Subaru Impreza or whatever they have managed to buy with a Wonga loan....

 

The original Leafs had a number of bars displayed on the dash and I can interrogate the Zoe's battery soh and recent charge history using Canze, plus the general state of health may be known from the guessometer on the dash but it isn't a clear indication as it's recent driving history may be different to what a regular EV driver or your own useage patterns may dictate. 

 

We brought our Zoe unseen when it was 28 months old, stated range at 100% was 68 miles and the battery SOH was 77%. I knew it was a risk but was assured any issues would be covered by the warranty. It had the infamous BMS upgrade which reset the health to 98% and it hasn't stopped since. Range at the moment for mostly the commute to work is 80 miles.

[black and decker boy]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

Here's a question for the experts - do modern EVs store their charging history, and can it be interrogated?

 

When I do get to buy one, it'll inevitably be second-hand (No way I can afford a new one at £20-30k+) - with an IC car I know what to look for to see if it's been well looked after, but with an EV it seems that the most important thing is going to be the condition of the battery - and whether previous owners have looked after it or have abused it with too many rapid charges etc, so I'm hoping there will be some way to check?

My home charger App logs every charge the car gets, home & away.

 

The Tesla account just logs Tesla Supercharge use & costs.

 

I'm sure the car does log everything and send it back to Tesla HQ but accessing it would perhaps need the garage to access the data. 

[Nick C]

4 minutes ago, 298 said:

 

"Abusing" isn't quite the same as the definition used to describe a Chav abusing a £500 20 the old Subaru Impreza or whatever they have managed to buy with a Wonga loan....

 

The original Leafs had a number of bars displayed on the dash and I can interrogate the Zoe's battery soh and recent charge history using Canze, plus the general state of health may be known from the guessometer on the dash but it isn't a clear indication as it's recent driving history may be different to what a regular EV driver or your own useage patterns may dictate. 

 

We brought our Zoe unseen when it was 28 months old, stated range at 100% was 68 miles and the battery SOH was 77%. I knew it was a risk but was assured any issues would be covered by the warranty. It had the infamous BMS upgrade which reset the health to 98% and it hasn't stopped since. Range at the moment for mostly the commute to work is 80 miles.

Ok, maybe abusing isn't the right word - "using in a way not conducive to the long-term health of the battery" doesn't have quite the same ring to it though!

 

I have plenty of experience of what to look for to tell if an IC car has been abused by a chav with a wonga loan, wheras EVs are totally new to me (and indeed to everyone else) - and I doubt there'll be any warranty left by the time they get down to my price range...

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

Here's a question for the experts - do modern EVs store their charging history, and can it be interrogated?

 

Yes. Depends.

I have a Leaf and there's a mobile app called LeafSpy which talks to a Bluetooth ODB2 adapter.

The most important stuff is on this screen.

SOH is state of health. An approximate measure of how much of the original battery capacity is remaining.

Hx is a weird value I think based on the battery's resistance.

QCs is the total number of DC rapid charges.

L1/L2s is the total number AC charges.

The graph shows battery voltage in cells. (It never draws right for me) Red means that cell is is being drained a little to balance it with the others.

If one of these bars is a lot lower than the others you don't want to buy the car because there's a duff cell.

 

 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Ok, maybe abusing isn't the right word - "using in a way not conducive to the long-term health of the battery" doesn't have quite the same ring to it though!

 

Yeah. You abuse an EV by letting it sit quietly on your drive. Either with a completely full or completely empty battery.

[boxbrownie]

56 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

Yeah. You abuse an EV by letting it sit quietly on your drive. Either with a completely full or completely empty battery.

Not entirely true, BMW actually recommend keeping the vehicle plugged in and on charge even when full, the vehicle automatically goes into a battery maintenance cycle when needed to balance and keep the battery pack in tip top condition, but not a good idea to keep an EV at its lowest capacity for prolonged periods, most industry advice is if keeping an EV parked/stored for longer periods (months usually) it is best to have the battery pack at 60-70%..........but again if possible always best to have it plugged in.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Not entirely true, BMW actually recommend keeping the vehicle plugged in and on charge even when full, the vehicle automatically goes into a battery maintenance cycle when needed to balance and keep the battery pack in tip top condition

 

Nissan recommend charging to 80% and then topping up every three months for storage.

[black and decker boy]

Tesla recommend keeping the battery between 20% and 90% and as default, will not recharge to over 90%.
 

they also recommend leaving plugged in when not in use, particularly if not in regular use.

 

The battery must never be drained to 0% as it will result in damage to ancillary systems incl the 12V battery

[Ian Morgan]

I believe most modern EVs now have battery temperature control, meaning frequent rapid charging does not cause damage. Early Leaf EVs do not have this, and recommend not doing a rapid charge twice in succession.