Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[number6]

On 15/12/2020 at 08:08, Fenman said:

I remain staggered at the speed of VW’s transformation, after the horrors of dieselgate, into an EV champion. Maybe it was cynicism, maybe altruism, but there can be no doubting their commitment to electrification now. 

 

I had a test drive in the iD3 the other day and that commitment hasn't quite hit the salesroom floor at my local big dealership. It felt very similar to popping into BMW four years ago to buy the i3 - 'I think there is one at the back, go and have a look if you like.'  The VW sales guy was quipping about being an eco warrior using the regen braking and asking if 80 miles of battery was enough for two hours test drive. He also said they had to shift loads of them before they end up paying lots of fines for not selling enough. Whose job is that then?! I felt that only when they have really enthusiastic sales teams would the atmosphere around them shift. Like most things, only when there isn't choice will people have to adopt them. So the buyer wanting a diesel Tiguan will only be able to get an EV version. 

 

It was a nice car but not for me. But also a reminder that I still feel EVs have a long way to go and aren't being sold hard enough and all the usual hang ups are still there - cost, charging, range, social ostracisation - that I was warned about four years ago when I bought mine much to the amusement of the sales guys at BMW. 

 

best

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, number6 said:

The VW sales guy was quipping about being an eco warrior using the regen braking and asking if 80 miles of battery was enough for two hours test drive. He also said they had to shift loads of them before they end up paying lots of fines for not selling enough. Whose job is that then?! I felt that only when they have really enthusiastic sales teams would the atmosphere around them shift.

 

My Leaf came from Wessex Nissan and the salesman was enthusiastic and had a Leaf as his company car. I still had to show him how to tell when a Leaf had a 3.3 or 6.6 kW AC charger though.

[Fenman]

3 hours ago, number6 said:

 

I had a test drive in the iD3 the other day and that commitment hasn't quite hit the salesroom floor at my local big dealership. It felt very similar to popping into BMW four years ago to buy the i3 - 'I think there is one at the back, go and have a look if you like.'  

...

I agree, it’s a huge problem. The local Skoda dealership here knows less about the forthcoming Enyaq than I do (and I don’t know much). I think they make so much money from servicing ICE cars that they’re very unenthusiastic about EVs.

 

The local VW dealership seems to have dumped EV sales onto an intern, while their manly professionals sell “proper” cars. 

Hyundai was a complete contrast — focussed and utterly professional. While Kia was much less impressive. And Nissan knew pretty much nothing about the Ariya. 

Just my data points. But they seem to support you. 
 

Paul

[Guest]

SWMBO getting a treat this Christmas? 

[admiles]

21 hours ago, number6 said:

 

I had a test drive in the iD3 the other day and that commitment hasn't quite hit the salesroom floor at my local big dealership. It felt very similar to popping into BMW four years ago to buy the i3 - 'I think there is one at the back, go and have a look if you like.'  The VW sales guy was quipping about being an eco warrior using the regen braking and asking if 80 miles of battery was enough for two hours test drive. He also said they had to shift loads of them before they end up paying lots of fines for not selling enough. Whose job is that then?! I felt that only when they have really enthusiastic sales teams would the atmosphere around them shift. Like most things, only when there isn't choice will people have to adopt them. So the buyer wanting a diesel Tiguan will only be able to get an EV version. 

 

It was a nice car but not for me. But also a reminder that I still feel EVs have a long way to go and aren't being sold hard enough and all the usual hang ups are still there - cost, charging, range, social ostracisation - that I was warned about four years ago when I bought mine much to the amusement of the sales guys at BMW. 

 

best

 

An old friend (school friend) of mine is a salesman for VW and he says they have a healthy loathing of EVs as they've been given tough sales targets for them but most people don't want them.

 

This has created resentment in the sales staff as they lose out on sales bonuses for not reaching EV targets. He says a large chunk of people still want diesels but can't get them as they're no longer available in the model they want so begrudgingly settle for a petrol version of the model instead. 

 

Not wanting to be a guinea pig for new tech, lack of range, lack of places to charge, future resale value and price are all concerns apparently. 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by admiles

[raymw]

Quote

Not wanting to be a guinea pig for new tech, lack of range, lack of places to charge, future resale value and price are all concerns apparently. 

A bit like trying to sell a race horse, where what is wanted is a camel.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, admiles said:

This has created resentment in the sales staff as they lose out on sales bonuses for not reaching EV targets. He says a large chunk of people still want diesels but can't get them as they're no longer available in the model they want so begrudgingly settle for a petrol version of the model instead. 

 

After the last time I looked at a VW I find it laughable that they would want to sell what people actually ask for and not whatever they desperately want to clear from the showroom. On a PCP which is something else I didn't ask for.

[Ian Morgan]

If their bonus depends on selling EVs, I would have thought they would be trying hard to encourage sales, rather than dissing them. When has resenting the product ever stopped a salesman?

 

 

[Guest]

Saw this on Facebook...

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 17/12/2020 at 17:43, Ian Morgan said:

If their bonus depends on selling EVs, I would have thought they would be trying hard to encourage sales, rather than dissing them. When has resenting the product ever stopped a salesman?

 

 

 

I don't think the pricing of EV's is doing them any favours.

 

Mike.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Enterprisingwestern

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I don't think the pricing of EV's isn't doing them any favours.

 

Mike.

 Double negative?

[idd15]

More evidence that VW needs to try harder with its dealerships:

VW Dealers & EV’s

 

Idd

[idd15]

It will be interesting to see what happens after this landmark case ruling on pollution.

 

Pollution Case

 

It is distressing enough when either of my kids has an attack, but this must have been truly awful for the poor lass. Hopefully some good will come from it for all our sakes.

 

idd

[Ron Ron Ron]

33 minutes ago, idd15 said:

More evidence that VW needs to try harder with its dealerships:

VW Dealers & EV’s

 

Idd

That doesn’t surprise me when it comes to VW (the company and not the dealers).

Maybe it’s because they’re too big, but they appear from the outside to be a corporate mess.

Left hand not knowing.......etc.

I’ve read a couple of articles that describe the convoluted internal politics and say that decisions down to the smallest detail are made by layers of committees upon committees.

 

The issue with the infotainment system and in-car software isn’t unique to the new electric ID series.

Apparently similar issues are affecting the new mk8 Golf and other recently introduced ICE models.

No doubt there’s a company technology division that is responsible for the systems in all their cars.

You can easily imagine a scenario where they’ve invested heavily in and signed off on systems that simply have to go ahead and cannot fail, in the sense of internal corporate politics.

What they’ve put in these ID models, appears from anecdotal evidence to be basically garbage. Effectively nobbling what otherwise are said to be very competent, good vehicles.

 

 

. 

 

[raymw]

This guy reckons VW will do OK (at least compared to Detroit) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWIU4OZ9OTI

[Enterprisingwestern]

17 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 Double negative?

 

Thanks, now altered, brain working faster than fingers, or vice versa!

 

Mike.

[idd15]

14 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The issue with the infotainment system and in-car software isn’t unique to the new electric ID series.

Apparently similar issues are affecting the new mk8 Golf and other recently introduced ICE models.

No doubt there’s a company technology division that is responsible for the systems in all their cars.

You can easily imagine a scenario where they’ve invested heavily in and signed off on systems that simply have to go ahead and cannot fail, in the sense of internal corporate politics.

What they’ve put in these ID models, appears from anecdotal evidence to be basically garbage. Effectively nobbling what otherwise are said to be very competent, good vehicles.

 

 

. 

 

Agreed. Fundamentally when you buy an EV you are buying a computer on wheels. Having worked for 30 years in IT I am now having to apply my first rule in computer purchasing when it comes to cars; never be first. I think in 12 months VW will have a good product(s), they’ve got to. But its going to be painful.

 

What is also interesting is that PSA have launched 6(7?) vehicles in the time that VW has launched one. I’ve not seen much criticism about their systems. But I think they’ve lost the publicity battle to VW.

 

Interesting times without a doubt.

 

idd

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, idd15 said:

Agreed. Fundamentally when you buy an any new vehicle you are buying a computer on wheels.

Corrected that for you 

[Nick C]

57 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Corrected that for you 

Agreed - even 18 years ago when I was at university, my tutor (who designed control systems for CERN, so could be said to know quite a bit about embedded computer systems) made a point of driving a Defender as it was the only newish car he could find without any computers! 

[number6]

On 19/12/2020 at 11:16, Nick C said:

Agreed - even 18 years ago when I was at university, my tutor (who designed control systems for CERN, so could be said to know quite a bit about embedded computer systems) made a point of driving a Defender as it was the only newish car he could find without any computers! 

And headroom for a tin foil helmet.

[Reorte]

6 minutes ago, number6 said:

And headroom for a tin foil helmet.

You can dislike computerised everything for its own sake you know. Biggest offputting factor for electric cars for me personally is that they're also new cars and hence the computer on wheels (and the price, but that'll drop). I like my technology to only be high enough to do the job to my satisfaction.

 

Some electronics if they make the engine run better, or are needed to manage the battery, and a decent stereo (but not "entertainment system") are all I want. And definitely no touchscreens, I'm even more firmly of the opinion that they're a very bad idea when you're driving.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Reorte

[Nick C]

43 minutes ago, Reorte said:

You can dislike computerised everything for its own sake you know. Biggest offputting factor for electric cars for me personally is that they're also new cars and hence the computer on wheels (and the price, but that'll drop). I like my technology to only be high enough to do the job to my satisfaction.

 

Some electronics if they make the engine run better, or are needed to manage the battery, and a decent stereo (but not "entertainment system") are all I want. And definitely no touchscreens, I'm even more firmly of the opinion that they're a very bad idea when you're driving.

My tutor's argument was that he knew how buggy most embedded software was!

 

I definitely agree about touchscreens - I am firmly of the belief that all controls in a car should be usable without taking your eyes off the road - as I've probably mentioned before, my current Toyota annoys me with this as the heater controls are a row of buttons, and not clearly delineated, so it's hard to find the right one by feel to, for example, switch from demist to normal. Most older cars I've had used three dials for this, so you just needed to remember which was which...

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

[johnofwessex]

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/press-office/press-releases/leading-scientists-set-out-resource-challenge-of-meeting-net-zer.html

 

An interesting read to say the least.

[black and decker boy]

34 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/press-office/press-releases/leading-scientists-set-out-resource-challenge-of-meeting-net-zer.html

 

An interesting read to say the least.

It is interesting but it lacks context in some areas:

 

What is the equivalent energy & raw material use for the same numbers of ICE or Hydrogen fuel vehicles?

 

what is the equivalent energy use for the U.K. supply of petrol & diesel, from source to refinery to forecourt pump?

 

What is the equivalent energy & raw material use for ancillaries needed on ICEs such as lub oil, brake pads etc

 

lots for our civil service & politicians to get their heads round and hopefully for the creative boffins to come up with green technology that keeps us moving without needing such rare earth minerals.