Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[boxbrownie]

27 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

My 5 1/2 year old Leaf with batteries that degrade faster than yours through lack of cooling has lost 17% last time I looked.

Indeed, in fact ours still shows about the same as when new, in summer it’s about 130 miles after an overnight charge, sometimes a smidge more, it’s such a small amount it is very difficult to judge, last year we had (well I insisted as I was buying an extended warranty) a battery health check and it came back as 99%.....I was quite pleased with that, but as you say the i3 has very good BMS and heating/cooling system for the traction pack.

 

So these terrible Lithium batteries are the devil’s own invention then? 

[boxbrownie]

7 minutes ago, raymw said:

Tesla obviously thought there was a problem with some of the  pre 2016 cars in Norway. and obviously they degrade anyway, 'cos they shove old ones into powerwalls, where capacity/weight doesn't matter. Anyway, as you've got a Tesla, so what does it say wrt software ownership, if anything, and what have you agreed with Tesla wrt updates, can you turn them off, go back to previous versions, or is it all under their control?

What makes you think I have a Tesla?

 

Tesla’s excuse was to protect the battery life, which may well be true but to do an update which degrades the range quite so much without at least first informing the customer is arrogance indeed.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Tesla’s excuse was to protect the battery life, which may well be true but to do an update which degrades the range quite so much without at least first informing the customer is arrogance indeed.

 

Tesla make nice cars but the company is Satan's bumhole.

 

If you follow the Rich Rebuilds YouTube channel on salvaged Teslas there are tales of Tesla remotely disabling supercharging and if it happens to be mid-journey tough. There are people who paid Tesla thousands of dollars to have their repaired Tesla certified for supercharging and then Tesla has remotely disabled it anyway.

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

Tesla make nice cars but the company is Satan's bumhole.

 

If you follow the Rich Rebuilds YouTube channel on salvaged Teslas there are tales of Tesla remotely disabling supercharging and if it happens to be mid-journey tough. There are people who paid Tesla thousands of dollars to have their repaired Tesla certified for supercharging and then Tesla has remotely disabled it anyway.

Just reading some of the tales from Tesla buyers who found faults on their cars at pick up and when refused to take the car until rectified they were told if they refused to take the car they would loose the order and the car and go back on the waiting list, and then even when accepting the car the issues about taking it back to a “service centre” sometimes many, many miles away only to get only one thing fixed at a time, it doesn’t sound good but still they love the cars.

[raymw]

4 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

So my 5 year old i3 will have reduced its original range by 25% this year?

 

so this was a fib, then?

[boxbrownie]

31 minutes ago, raymw said:

so this was a fib, then?

Just replying to your assertion that Lithium batteries and thus my i3 traction battery would degrade by 5% a year,  so far at almost five years old the degradation has been almost unmeasurable.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

Just reading some of the tales from Tesla buyers who found faults on their cars at pick up and when refused to take the car until rectified they were told if they refused to take the car they would loose the order and the car and go back on the waiting list.

 

Youtuber EVM has a Tesla. On delivery a panel gap somewhere was touching at one point but wide at the other end. It looked hideous and he refused delivery until Tesla agreed to fix it. 

He accepted the car and later someone came to inspect it. 'Within tolerance' they said and went away again. 

[Ian J.]

I don't think Tesla has enough genuine competition in the general public's eyes yet, so they're getting away with some things that I certainly wouldn't put up with, quality control being one. I also really don't like the idea of too many controls being only via the centre screen, as a driver I want them at my fingertips at the wheel.

[Nick C]

13 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Just reading some of the tales from Tesla buyers who found faults on their cars at pick up and when refused to take the car until rectified they were told if they refused to take the car they would loose the order and the car and go back on the waiting list, and then even when accepting the car the issues about taking it back to a “service centre” sometimes many, many miles away only to get only one thing fixed at a time, it doesn’t sound good but still they love the cars.

That's what happens when you sell a product based on hype and 'brand' rather than quality. Just look at Apple - they can, and do, get away will all sorts of things, and their fans will still come back the following year to stump up another grand on the next new model...

[Ron Ron Ron]

20 hours ago, raymw said:

......if it's lithium based batteries, they deteriorate about 5% per year, whether you use them or not, so I expect if you're into fast charging, they deteriorate faster. I'd be surprised if Tesla pays out.

The batteries are considered useable in the cars, until they reduce to a minimum of 70% retention of capacity.

The battery warranty is 8 years or....

Model S & X - 150,000 miles

Model 3 standard - 100,000 miles

Model 3 LR & Performance - 120,000 miles.

 

Analysis of most of the total fleet of seven and eight year old Model S vehicles has shown that degradation in the first year is on average about 5%, but after that the reduction has been at a glacial rate, with most vehicles still having around 85% after 7 or 8 years.

Many of these cars have done over 150,000 miles, with some passing 250,000 miles.

 

Remember, Tesla will be switching over to their new 4680 battery cells, starting from later this year.

Increased longevity  is just one of the improvements these will bring.

 

Build quality and panel gaps is said to be gradually improving, with the Shanghai built cars appearing to be far better built, with better paint finish, than the California built cars.
Since a couple of months ago, Europe is now being supplied from China.

The cars that will come out of the Berlin factory, should see another improvement in build quality.

They’’ll also be based on the new single forging, front and rear chassis assemblies, combined with the structural battery frame.

Teslas aim is for the Berlin cars to match German premium brands for build quality and panel gaps, although I doubt their interiors will come anywhere near, in terms of materials etc.

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

6 minutes ago, Nick C said:

That's what happens when you sell a product based on hype and 'brand' rather than quality. Just look at Apple - they can, and do, get away will all sorts of things, and their fans will still come back the following year to stump up another grand on the next new model...

Apple. That’s a false analogy.

They may me overpriced, but Apple build quality is overwhelming and consistently high.
There will always be a few faulty products when you are producing literally millions of units and Apple warranty and after sales care is second to none.

No quibble replacement or repair, unless you are trying it on.

 

Tesla’s main problem these days is fit and finish. 
Inconsistency with panel gaps, some cars are perfectly OK, others have glaring issues.

Recent US built Model 3’s for instance, the problem just seems to be on the right hand side of the car, or where the rear light clusters are fitted. Some cars are perfect, others not.

Interior QC is another area, particularly with regard to headlining panel fit and sharp trim edges on the door openings.

A lot of the earlier niggles and problem areas have been rectified, with the recent “facelift” having addressed some of them.

Chinese built cars are said to be a lot better.

 

Paint finish is another area of inconsistency.

Again, the Shanghai plant is producing cars with thicker paint coating and a superior finish.

 

The new Texas and German factories will be the real test. They are said to be incorporating a lot of improvements based on previous experience.

The proof will be in the pudding, as they say.

 

 

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[Nick C]

2 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Apple. That’s a false analogy.

They may me overpriced, but Apple build quality is overwhelming and consistently high.
There will always be a few faulty products when you are producing literally millions of units and Apple warranty and after sales care is second to none.

No quibble replacement or repair, unless you are trying it on.

 

Tesla’s main problem these days is fit and finish. 
Inconsistency with panel gaps, some cars are perfectly OK, others have glaring issues.

Recent US built Model 3’s for instance, the problem just seems to be on the right hand side of the car, or where the rear light clusters are fitted. Some cars are perfect, others not.

Interior QC is another area, particularly with regard to headlining panel fit and sharp trim edges on the door openings.

A lot of the earlier niggles and problem areas have been rectified, with the recent “facelift” having addressed some of them.

Chinese built cars are said to be a lot better.

 

Paint finish is another area of inconsistency.

Again, the Shanghai plant is producing cars with thicker paint coating and a superior finish.

 

The new Texas and German factories will be the real test. They are said to be incorporating a lot of improvements based on previous experience.

The proof will be in the pudding, as they say.

 

Ok, parhaps Appls wasn't the best example, but there certainly seems to be a thing these days about 'brand' being more important than quality, service etc.

 

The issues you've listed above are, quite frankly, utterly shocking for a product that is being sold, and priced, at a premium level - more on par with what would be expected from BL in their later days - and even worse if they're being accompanied by the after-sales attitude mentioned in earlier posts. If I'm ever in a situation where I can afford a new EV, I certainly won't be looking at Tesla based on that.

[PenrithBeacon]

Like BL, Tesla will have to do better when the competition arrives or go under, as BL did.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

That's what happens when you sell a product based on hype and 'brand' rather than quality. Just look at Apple - they can, and do, get away will all sorts of things, and their fans will still come back the following year to stump up another grand on the next new model...

So very true, and up until far years ago I’d never touch an Apple product because they were my feeling also, but we were sucked in eventually by necessity (family use meant the only way to communicate easily was to use the same) and to be very honest.....we have two secondhand iPhones, a refurbished iPad Air and we actually bought an iPad Pro (which TBH has almost completely replaced our use of the desktop/laptops)....and they have been bulletproof and work together without issue, damn them.....

Edited May 27, 2021 by boxbrownie

[Ian Morgan]

Not a fan of how Apple operates, but I have owned two Apple products over the years. The Apple iMac (G3) was a cool looking machine, with everything in one box (plus keyboard and mouse) and ran sweeter than an equivalent Windows PC on half the memory. However, finding up to date software that would run on it was a nightmare, and when a nearby lightning strike took out the built-in modem I sold it on. I later bought an iPad 2 which has been great, and still gets used for Zoom meetings, but is not new enough to install Teams.

 

Back to cars, my other half's car has spent a few weeks in the garage on their third attempt to fix a leaking sunroof. We had a week in west Wales seeing the grandson, so the garage gave us a nearly new Golf estate as a courtesy car. It has a small turbo petrol engine, automatic gearbox and an auto-stop/start system that means the engine spends a lot of time not running as soon as you let your foot off the accellerator. It is amazing how far you can coast on some stretches of motorway before starting to lose speed.

 

It was OK around home, and on the motorway, but is was hopeless on the hilly, winding roads of west Wales. On two occassions it was downright dangerous. The anti-collision system slammed on the brakes twice thinking I was about to hit something. One was a sleeping policeman, and one was a car parked in a lay-by next to a bend in the road.

 

Coasting down a hill (there are a few in west Wales) the engine stops, but there is usually a tight bend at the bottom of the hill, so you touch the brakes, and not much happens. By the time the engines starts, builds up vacuum and the brake servo kicks in, you are pressing the brake pedal rather hard and slow down rapidly.

 

The little engine struggled with hills and the automatic gear changes were sometimes quite rough. Also, trying a quick getaway from a junction was interesting, with the pause while the engine started and the 'auto-hold' decided to let go being followed by a lurch forward.

 

Have I been spoiled by my all electric Ioniq, with its smooth accelleration from 0 to whatever, ample power and smooth regen brakes? Probably.

 

[Reorte]

22 minutes ago, Ian Morgan said:

Have I been spoiled by my all electric Ioniq, with its smooth accelleration from 0 to whatever, ample power and smooth regen brakes? Probably.

Sounds more like a problem with all the fancy "features" rather than with not being electric, other than the struggling up hills part. I didn't realise stop-start was supposed to activate when a car was still moving!

Edited May 27, 2021 by Reorte

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Ian Morgan said:

Coasting down a hill (there are a few in west Wales) the engine stops, but there is usually a tight bend at the bottom of the hill, so you touch the brakes, and not much happens. By the time the engines starts, builds up vacuum and the brake servo kicks in, you are pressing the brake pedal rather hard and slow down rapidly.

 

 

I would have said that seems unlikely but 'coast mode' is thing on some autos now. Who knew.

The servo really ought to hang on to vacuum though.

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 hours ago, Nick C said:

....The issues you've listed above are, quite frankly, utterly shocking for a product that is being sold, and priced, at a premium level - more on par with what would be expected from BL in their later days - ....

 

It's nowhere near that bad.

The cars work...very well.

They drive well.

Are very efficient and reliable.

..but QC and inconsistent build issues (e.g. panel gaps) have been a problem for them.

Most of the issues are just cosmetic and sometimes only noticeable when you look for them.

The interior quality has gradually improved etc, etc. and there is constant updating, upgrading or replacement of parts and components, on the production line.

It's like the customers have effectively been beta testers for a brand new volume manufacturer, starting out from scratch.

Anyone who dismisses Tesla as a coming force in motor manufacturing, is foolish.

The gigantic production facilities they're opening (with more to come) and their technological lead, will ensure a commanding role in vehicle production over the next decade and more.

 

Some established big name companies are going to be biting the dust in the meantime.

 

 

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[Reorte]

7 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Anyone who dismisses Tesla as a coming force in motor manufacturing, is foolish.

The gigantic production facilities they're opening (with more to come) and their technological lead, will ensure a commanding role in vehicle production over the next decade and more.

 

What their future will be depends on whether or not they'll shift significantly more mass-market rather than catering  towards early adopter technophiles. Those people are necessary to get something new to the point where it's mass market viable, and there's no doubt that Tesla's been a significant force there but it's not a long term strategy unless they're only intending to be a high end and (relatively) niche.

[Ian Morgan]

9 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

I would have said that seems unlikely but 'coast mode' is thing on some autos now. Who knew.

 

 

The stopping of the engine is seen by the rev-counter dropping to zero at the drop of a hat (or lifting of the right foot).

 

However, a nice feature was when in a queue at traffic lights, the engine stops, but it starts again as soon as the car in front moves, and before you touch the accellerator.

 

As for manufacturers biting the dust, with the emissions test scandel, leaking panoramic sun roofs on many VAG models, and the reported software problems on their ID range, VW could be in for a bumpy ride (pun intended).

 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Ian Morgan said:

The stopping of the engine is seen by the rev-counter dropping to zero at the drop of a hat (or lifting of the right foot).

 

However, a nice feature was when in a queue at traffic lights, the engine stops, but it starts again as soon as the car in front moves, and before you touch the accellerator.

 

I think I would rather have a series hybrid than that nonsense.

Regen braking and instant 'go' when you want it.

[boxbrownie]

57 minutes ago, Ian Morgan said:

 

 

It was OK around home, and on the motorway, but is was hopeless on the hilly, winding roads of west Wales. On two occassions it was downright dangerous. The anti-collision system slammed on the brakes twice thinking I was about to hit something. One was a sleeping policeman, and one was a car parked in a lay-by next to a bend in the road.

 

Coasting down a hill (there are a few in west Wales) the engine stops, but there is usually a tight bend at the bottom of the hill, so you touch the brakes, and not much happens. By the time the engines starts, builds up vacuum and the brake servo kicks in, you are pressing the brake pedal rather hard and slow down rapidly.

 

Our friends Tiguan plays up all the time when they visit down here on the narrow lanes, the anti collision cuts in at the slightest threat of an obstacle, unfortunately it sees every bloomin’ hedge/wall/vehicle in the lanes as an obstacle and slams the brakes on and makes the steering wheel “jiggle”.

 

The car you had would not have had a vacuum servo to build up vacuum, modern ABS/Stabilty systems use a pump and distribution block controlled by an ECU......it certainly doesn’t need the engine running, it is powered by the 12v battery.

Edited May 27, 2021 by boxbrownie

[Ron Ron Ron]

54 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

What their future will be depends on whether or not they'll shift significantly more mass-market rather than catering  towards early adopter technophiles. Those people are necessary to get something new to the point where it's mass market viable, and there's no doubt that Tesla's been a significant force there but it's not a long term strategy unless they're only intending to be a high end and (relatively) niche.

The volumes they are gearing up for and the announcement that there’s an objective of producing a $25,000 small car in the next few years ( that’s VW Polo / Ford Fiesta territory), suggests they’re not planning to be a niche player.  
Elon Musk has repeatedly listed cost of purchase, one of the several key issues that he intends to crack.

 

52 minutes ago, Ian Morgan said:

......As for manufacturers biting the dust, with the emissions test scandel, leaking panoramic sun roofs on many VAG models, and the reported software problems on their ID range, VW could be in for a bumpy ride (pun intended).

 

VAG have made a very sensible decision to go all-in on electrification, but at an eye watering cost of €€€ billions.

After the emissions scandal, that was the only option left open to them, despite what is reported as much hostility and a huge pushback against it, internally.

As such, they stand a good chance of succeeding...if they can sort out stuff like their poor car software and the cost cutting cheap interiors and switchgear.

 

VW are making a complete hash of their product range though, now offering cars with many more times the number of trim levels than they’ve ever had, with too many option packs to choose from, multiple battery sizes combined with a choice of motor power outputs and a choice of either of rear wheel (or front wheel) drive, or both and various combinations of all of them.

It’s mind boggling and completely confusing, even for nerdy types like me, who like to get their head around all the possible options, in order to work out want I want or fancy having. God help any normal customer walking in off the street.

 

I give credit to companies like Mercedes, Nissan, Kia and Volvo/Polestar and Tesla, for offering easily understood and limited ranges of trim levels, with sensibly grouped option packs, either included or available as an extra. Totally more  consumer friendly IMHO.

 

 

 

 

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Edited May 27, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Reorte]

3 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The volumes they are gearing up for and the announcement that there’s an objective of producing a $25,000 small car in the next few years ( that’s VW Polo / Ford Fiesta territory), suggests they’re not planning to be a niche player.  
Elon Musk has repeatedly listed cost of purchase, one of the several key issues that he intends to crack.

I'm quite curious to see what that'll look like, since all the electronic bells and whistles seem to be as much a part of the appeal for Tesla owners as them being electric, and as much technology as possible appears to be Tesla's position too. Arguably looking to the other end of the market will have to be as big a shift in culture for Tesla as the VW example (although a considerably less expensive one).

[Ron Ron Ron]

4 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I'm quite curious to see what that'll look like, since all the electronic bells and whistles seem to be as much a part of the appeal for Tesla owners as them being electric......

I’m not so sure about that. They’re already churning out hundreds of thousands of cars and there’s a lot more than tech to appeal to potential customers.

The blistering, Ferrari equaling acceleration will appeal to the boy racer mindset,

the tech will be familiar and blend with the behaviour and lifestyles of the younger age group who are wedded to smartphones and everything online,

the eco-credentials will bestow virtue on the self righteous ( in their minds),

Tesla’s lead in efficiency, battery range and technology gives them an edge over the competition,

Brand...very important.

and there’s a prospect that they could potentially save you money over the old tech ( running costs, road charging, taxation etc,).

 

 

 

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