Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[APOLLO]

I fully agree with Ron Ron Ron's post above.

 

I've mentioned COP26 in Glasgow in a couple of months. It's not just about energy, it's about many other things also, basically too many people on the planet chasing ever better (consumer) lifestyles with ever depleting resources.

 

An EV is an expensive and high tech machine which uses many rare & diminishing resources, lithium, copper, rare earth magnets etc etc. The old established ICE "lifetime" of say 10 years (or less) needs to be rethought. Basically they need to be more forward compatible somehow, affordable interchangeable battery packs to fit any / most vehicles, etc etc. A ready market for partially depleted batteries (Powerbanks) introduced. Squeeze ALL the life out of them, then recycle. Upgradeable electronics - everything plug & play & associated software easily  & automatically updated.

 

There is no reason an EV should not last 20-30 years (Airliners do - they are complex machines in (pre Covid days) almost constant use, and have several refits etc over their lifetime. Two or so battery changes per average EV lifetime should become acceptable.

 

But no single manufacturer will do the above, they would be shooting themselves in the foot for future sales. They are entrenched in the designed car life & replace method.

 

Another thing is servicing / repairs. My local backstreet garage is capable and trusted. He will work on almost anything but will not touch any EV's. Far too complex he says, and a great deal of training is required, as quite high voltages exist on EV's. 

So the dealer it is, OK under Warranty (Tesla have quite a long warranty I understand) - Then your on your own with only the expensive main dealer network. Yes new EV trained independent garages will arise hopefully.

 

Things will change over time, but no second hand out of warranty EV's for me for the foreseeable future.

 

Brit15

[black and decker boy]

27 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

I fully agree with Ron Ron Ron's post above.

 

I've mentioned COP26 in Glasgow in a couple of months. It's not just about energy, it's about many other things also, basically too many people on the planet chasing ever better (consumer) lifestyles with ever depleting resources.

 

An EV is an expensive and high tech machine which uses many rare & diminishing resources, lithium, copper, rare earth magnets etc etc. The old established ICE "lifetime" of say 10 years (or less) needs to be rethought. Basically they need to be more forward compatible somehow, affordable interchangeable battery packs to fit any / most vehicles, etc etc. A ready market for partially depleted batteries (Powerbanks) introduced. Squeeze ALL the life out of them, then recycle. Upgradeable electronics - everything plug & play & associated software easily  & automatically updated.

 

There is no reason an EV should not last 20-30 years (Airliners do - they are complex machines in (pre Covid days) almost constant use, and have several refits etc over their lifetime. Two or so battery changes per average EV lifetime should become acceptable.

 

But no single manufacturer will do the above, they would be shooting themselves in the foot for future sales. They are entrenched in the designed car life & replace method.

 

Another thing is servicing / repairs. My local backstreet garage is capable and trusted. He will work on almost anything but will not touch any EV's. Far too complex he says, and a great deal of training is required, as quite high voltages exist on EV's. 

So the dealer it is, OK under Warranty (Tesla have quite a long warranty I understand) - Then your on your own with only the expensive main dealer network. Yes new EV trained independent garages will arise hopefully.

 

Things will change over time, but no second hand out of warranty EV's for me for the foreseeable future.

 

Brit15

For servicing, it’s a step change anyway as there is pretty much nothing to service - no mechanical moving parts, no lubricating or cooling systems etc. Consumables such as brake pads, lights and wipers may need occasional replacement but they remain low tech.
 

Software & hardware are main dealer but no different to any current ICEs in needing the right laptop.

 

I guess this will be same if Hydrogen gains ground against BEVs as the fuel cell is a chemical reaction to generate electricity rather than generate mechanical movement 

[black and decker boy]

3 minutes ago, Coombe Vale said:

If modern batteries aren't damaged through rapid charging then fair enough. I'm more than happy to stand corrected if that is the case.

 

Regarding a minimum range I would consider 500 - 600 miles to be acceptable. I get around that from my Niva 4 x 4

Why do you need a range of 600 miles? How many journeys do you make per year where you drive for over 300 miles non stop and then return same day, non stop?

 

The key difference between an EV and an ICE is that an EV can be plugged in everytime it’s parked. So every night at home, during the day at the office, station or shopping centre (Meadowhall is very well equipped for EVs). Having a 600mile range simply to avoid going to a service station for fuel every day / week / month is not relevant in an EV. 

 

The longest journey I’ve driven (in my BMW) was home to Perth at 400 miles. 8 hrs drive. I stopped twice for a stretch, loo & food/drink.

 

in my EV, I would need to stop once for a charge to complete the journey. I’d still need to stop a second time for me.

 

Fast chargers are becoming very common. 150kwh and up to 300kwh. You can work out yourself how long it takes to recharge my 75kw battery.

[black and decker boy]

24 minutes ago, Coombe Vale said:

If modern batteries aren't damaged through rapid charging then fair enough. I'm more than happy to stand corrected if that is the case.

this is what the Tesla manual says:

 

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Coombe Vale said:

Regarding a minimum range I would consider 500 - 600 miles to be acceptable. I get around that from my Niva 4 x 4

 

Really? I thought they had like a 10 gal tank?

[Reorte]

6 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

Not in the near future as electronic speed limiters linked to GPS etc is fitted - coming very soon I understand.

 

Yet another thing to put me off (and not because I want to speed either). Sure, it'll be possible to turn them off (for now) but this "we don't trust any of you, we're going to work on the principle everyone is an irresponsible child, and we'll pile in the electronics to make sure you're being a good little boy or girl" world is one I find very, very depressing.

[Reorte]

7 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Classic car conversions had a large presence at Fully Charged Live.

I attended a discussion involving leading figures in the growing classic to EV conversion market.

They've all come from a petrolhead, classic car fanatic background.

 

These companies have already done loads of conversions over the last few years and their experience and knowledge has come on quite a way.

Plus batteries, motors and other components can now be sourced directly, rather than rely on broken EV's becoming available.

Their order books are full with one company having completed nearly 50 cars and now having about 140 confirmed orders for classic conversions.

 

Here are some examples seen at the show.....

Nice. Any ideas about the range? I was under the impression that purpose-built EVs achieved decent ranges (and by all accounts they're decent enough for me now) by being designed around the batteries, so there's battery everywhere there could be, which won't be the case for conversions. I'd also worry a bit about how moving the weight around would affect the handling, but I imagine the people doing them are dedicated enough to cars that they know what they're doing there. Not that I'm particularly interested in a classic, just a bog standard 15 year old Focus or something like that will do me OK.

[idd15]

Forgot to say thanks for posting the pictures from FC Live Ron Ron Ron. Was hoping to go, maybe next year. Need to see what I can replace my Soviet era gas boiler with… 

 

[Vistisen]

I would have thought that the the return of motor-rail is a possible solution for long distance journeys. Drive to the station put your car on the train and get it charged on the way.  You arrive at the other end of the country with a fully charged car and a refreshed driver

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

I would have thought that the the return of motor-rail is a possible solution for long distance journeys. Drive to the station put your car on the train and get it charged on the way.  You arrive at the other end of the country with a fully charged car and a refreshed driver

 

Share schemes would work better there. Grab a car to drive to the station. Get on a normal train. Grab another car when you get there. 

[black and decker boy]

8 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

I would have thought that the the return of motor-rail is a possible solution for long distance journeys. Drive to the station put your car on the train and get it charged on the way.  You arrive at the other end of the country with a fully charged car and a refreshed driver

Not sure my car can cope with a 25kv feed. It would be quick though 

[298]

7 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

I would have thought that the the return of motor-rail is a possible solution for long distance journeys. Drive to the station put your car on the train and get it charged on the way.  You arrive at the other end of the country with a fully charged car and a refreshed driver

 

Or just rent one at your destination...?

 

The sleeper operation is heavily subsidised and has turned into a hotel on wheels instead of a reasonably priced transportation option. If you start to add up the labour needed for it and motorail then it soon becomes unviable, in the same way that Red Star parcels now seems like a good idea just as long as there is someone at the loading and unloading stations and she meoje on the train to look after it, and there aren't anymore. 

 

I like the idea of charging whilst onboard the train tho...

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

Not that I'm particularly interested in a classic, just a bog standard 15 year old Focus or something like that will do me OK.

 

If you can stretch to a ten year old Focus and look _really_ hard you might find one that was electric from the factory.

 

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/forgotten-electric-cars-ford-focus-electric

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, idd15 said:

Forgot to say thanks for posting the pictures from FC Live Ron Ron Ron. Was hoping to go, maybe next year. Need to see what I can replace my Soviet era gas boiler with… 

 

 

Thanks for the thanks, so to speak.

Sorry about the quality and poor framing of some of the photos.

I only had my old iPhone to hand and the space available and the crowds made it difficult to take pictures.

 

This event has grown since the first 2 years at Silverstone and was cancelled last year for something or other....I can't think what?

 

This years show was largely held outside because of the Covid issues around indoor events. 

There were covered stands, marquees and portable exhibition buildings, plus a covered, open air theatre where some of the discussions and presentations were held.

The main theatre was indoors in the exhibition centre. It was very large and quite full for the various discussions and presentations that were held there.

Also indoors, next to the GiGA theatre, was another very large hall where the Lookers car group had a large selection of 10 or 11 different EV's on display, for you to look over and sit in.

 

Apart from new electric cars, electric classic conversions, vans and trucks, there were also a lot of electric motorbikes, some electric Vespa scooters, electric bikes and the dreaded electric scooters.

 

A large part of the exhibition and the company stands, was devoted to energy systems, Solar PV, integrated home energy management, power walls, heat pumps, car chargers, quite a few leasing and subscription hire companies, plus a large representation from energy providers such as Octopus, Evo and others and car charging network providers, such as BP Chargemaster and others.

 

Apart from the maybe 25 or 30 classic conversions, there were around 40 plus new EV car models, with good representation from Ford, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, Polestar and the Stellantis Group, who had a large stand containing all the EV's available from each of the group's car brands...Fiat, Peugeot, Vauxhall, Citroen, DS.

VW had the ID 3 and ID 4 on display.

Other manufacturers vehicles were on show, courtesy of the Lookers group and various leasing and other companies.

Lookers had nearly all the EV's sold by Audi, Mercedes, Skoda, Volvo, Jaguar, Mini and BMW.

 

I mustn't forget to mention the large Tesla area, where some 20 odd, immaculate presented Teslas were provided by the owners club.

The first Model Y seen in the UK, I mentioned in a previous post, was there too.

That car is going to be a big seller across Europe (inc. the UK).

 

There were also around 50 or 60 cars available for test drives, but the demand was such that all were booked up within an hour of the show opening.

Polestar had , I think 9 or 10 Polestar 2's doing test drives, but they were booked out for the entire day within about 30 minutes of the show opening.

 

The cars went out in waves from each manufacturer in turn, with a few odd ones in between.

It was interesting to stand by the parking area, pit lane, where a number of them set off from.

You would have maybe 9 or 10 cars pulling out to set off, as another half dozen of another model were returning and parking up.

It was like a busy city street, entirely populated by EV's, with no noisy ICE vehicles in the mix.

It was weirdly silent and a taste of the dramatic effect that near silent electric vehicles are going to have in improving our towns and cities, in terms of reduced noise.

 

I expect next year's show will be bigger still and probably will use more indoor exhibition space, if the Covid situation has improved for such events.

 

 

 

.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[APOLLO]

Hmmm - An all electric Rover P5B ?

 

No V8 - No thanks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Hmmm - An all electric Rover P5B ?

 

No V8 - No thanks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But an electric Citroen DS. Perfection.

[Vistisen]

2 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

Share schemes would work better there. Grab a car to drive to the station. Get on a normal train. Grab another car when you get there. 

I'm not sure about  car sharing. My car is personal for me. It's bad enough lending it to my better half. Also having to move a week's luggage at each end of the trip would probably be enough to cause me to just drive anyway. Car sharing makes sense if you only use a car occasionally. But if you use one every day and then take it on holiday. Then to me, car sharing is not sensible.

[AndyID]

32 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Hmmm - An all electric Rover P5B ?

 

No V8 - No thanks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

 

Dunno about that. My 3.0L diesel V-6 hauls more than its 5.7L V-8 petrol predecessor.

 

Size isn't everything you know

[AndyID]

2 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

Not sure my car can cope with a 25kv feed. It would be quick though 

 

That would not be necessary. It would just use very long extension cables

[Ron Ron Ron]

7 minutes ago, AndyID said:

…..Size isn't everything you know

I’ve been telling Mrs Ron that for years.

She’s never believed me.

 

 

.

[AndyID]

Seriously though, I'm all for collecting all renewable energy that cannot be used immediately and converting it into hydrogen. It's a very inefficient process but who cares if the energy was not going to be captured anyway?

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Coombe Vale said:

You're right. I'm sorry, I made a typo. I meant to say 400 - 500 miles. I was hurrying because I wanted to catch the photo's below as the train went passed my front door. I generally get around 40 - 45mpg in the Lada. 

 

That's pretty impressive. I'd have expected below 30mpg which was another thing that put me off.

50mpg I tend to regard as horribly expensive these days.

[shady]

16 hours ago, AndyID said:

Seriously though, I'm all for collecting all renewable energy that cannot be used immediately and converting it into hydrogen. It's a very inefficient process but who cares if the energy was not going to be captured anyway?

Because the sensible solution is to actually capture the energy , large scale grid battery storage will beat hydrogen every time. Not to mention the "small saving" of not having to build a complete country wide infrastructure for dealing with hydrogen.

[AndyID]

4 minutes ago, shady said:

Because the sensible solution is to actually capture the energy , large scale grid battery storage will beat hydrogen every time. Not to mention the "small saving" of not having to build a complete country wide infrastructure for dealing with hydrogen.

 

Seems to work for Shetland.

[shady]

4 minutes ago, AndyID said:

 

Seems to work for Shetland.

Lots of things "work" as long as you don't have to actually consider the cost either financially or in actual energy used.