Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Ron Ron Ron]

London's largest taxi firm to switch to all-electric fleet by 2023

 

Addison Lee will invest £160 million into switch, targeting 20,000 zero-emissions journeys each day in London.

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/londons-largest-taxi-firm-switch-all-electric-fleet-2023

 

 

 

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[black and decker boy]

All together now. Panic buying, what panic buying? Queuing how long for a few litres of petrol? 
 

I just plug in on my drive

 

on a more serious note, fate will clearly now send me a long and unexplainable power cut and I’ll be marooned on my drive looking silly 

[black and decker boy]

Just seen this system pop up on LinkedIn, not sure if it’s featured here before:

 

GoGoRo road side exchangeable batteries for scooters

 

 

[AndyID]

I saw an announcement by a company in the UK that's promoting a very fast charging but lower density battery technology (lithium-carbon I think). The idea is that for short journeys frequent recharging isn't a big problem.

 

For this to work the power dissipated in the battery cells during charging has to be relatively small and it's also going to require a really high power charger. Those damn laws of Physics just keep getting in the way

 

Personally I think batteries are a great way to get things moving in the right direction but in the long-term synthetic net-zero-carbon fuels are a much better solution. The World is awash in gigantic amounts of energy from the Sun. We just need to find ways use that recent energy rather than the energy that was delivered aeons ago.

[298]

18 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

All together now. Panic buying, what panic buying? Queuing how long for a few litres of petrol? 
 

I just plug in on my drive

 

on a more serious note, fate will clearly now send me a long and unexplainable power cut and I’ll be marooned on my drive looking silly 

 

You can't buy petrol during a power cut. Just putting that thought out there...

[Ron Ron Ron]

8 hours ago, AndyID said:

.........The World is awash in gigantic amounts of energy from the Sun. We just need to find ways use that recent energy rather than the energy that was delivered aeons ago.

 

This is spot on.

The energy from the Sun arriving on the Earth, every second of every day, 365 days a year, provides something like millions of times the amount of energy the human race would ever need.

Ultimately, everything is or has been solar powered.

The fossil fuels we've been dependant on for thousands of years were all created from solar energy.

 

IIRC, it's reckoned that to power the entire USA (heating, cooling,  electricity, powering all transport etc,) would require a solar farm that is only about 50 miles x 50 miles in size.

Based on an average of 4 hours solar generation a day.

 

 

 

 

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Edited September 25, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[black and decker boy]

8 hours ago, AndyID said:

 

Personally I think batteries are a great way to get things moving in the right direction but in the long-term synthetic net-zero-carbon fuels are a much better solution. The World is awash in gigantic amounts of energy from the Sun. We just need to find ways use that recent energy rather than the energy that was delivered aeons ago.

But what will those synthetic fuels be made from?

 

There is concern that that dash for HVO / Green Diesel will see a further loss of food crop and / or forest as 3rd world countries plant the cash crops HVO producers need. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Why waste energy and resources manufacturing synthetic fuels and Hydrogen gas, when you can just cut that out for most uses and power vehicles directly?

Is it creating an unnecessary "middle man" in the energy chain?

 

I suspect the entire synthetic fuel and to some degree, Hydrogen push, is coming from the oil and petroleum industry, because the bulk of their entire existence will become redundant.

They're just looking for ways to remain economically relevant and are pitching to get a "slice of the action".

 

 

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[woodenhead]

12 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Why waste energy and resources manufacturing synthetic fuels and Hydrogen gas, when you can just cut that out for most uses and power vehicles directly?

Is it creating an unnecessary "middle man" in the energy chain?

 

I suspect the entire synthetic fuel and to some degree, Hydrogen push, is coming from the oil and petroleum industry, because the bulk of their entire existence will become redundant.

They're just looking for ways to remain economically relevant and are pitching to get a "slice of the action".

 

 

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And equally those who ownn the raw materials and manufacturing of batteries are pushing very fast for their technology to win out.

 

Any technology push has someone either getting rich or trying to get very rich whilst trying to monopolise the market.

 

It should also not be forgottenn that much of our plastics industry is based upon the petroleum / gas industry so they are not going away but plastic will get more expensive.

[PenrithBeacon]

I thought the manufacture of plastics in the UK was due to stop in the next few years?

[idd15]

This I find quite remarkable,

Norwegian car market trend

 

Wonder if it will happen like that here in the UK?…

idd

[PenrithBeacon]

14 minutes ago, idd15 said:

This I find quite remarkable,

Norwegian car market trend

 

Wonder if it will happen like that here in the UK?…

idd

We should wish!

[Vistisen]

On 25/09/2021 at 14:40, idd15 said:

This I find quite remarkable,

Norwegian car market trend

 

Wonder if it will happen like that here in the UK?…

The ironic thing is that Norway is still pumping massive amounts of oil out of the North Sea. As is Denmark,but at least we have committed to stopping doing so. Norway is still investing in new production. Although this may change after the recent election.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Vistisen

[Ron Ron Ron]

41 minutes ago, idd15 said:

This I find quite remarkable,

Norwegian car market trend

 

Wonder if it will happen like that here in the UK?…

idd

 

Electric car sales in Norway overtook ICE car sales a couple of years ago. Now around 70%.

 

Will it happen in the UK?

There's no option or alternative. It's mandated and the manufacturers are committed to EV rollout and production.

 

 

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[idd15]

26 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Electric car sales in Norway overtook ICE car sales a couple of years ago. Now around 70%.

 

Will it happen in the UK?

There's no option or alternative. It's mandated and the manufacturers are committed to EV rollout and production.

 

 

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Sorry I was more meaning that it will likely happen ahead of the Norwegian “deadline” and could that happen against the UK 2030 target. Suppose it might happen, why would you take delivery of an ice car 31st December 2030? The depreciation as you drove it off the forecourt would be even more horrendous than it is now! 
 

idd

 

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I thought the manufacture of plastics in the UK was due to stop in the next few years?

We need plastic, it has very good uses, what will be banned is single use plastics like packaging, utensils and bags.

[woodenhead]

22 minutes ago, idd15 said:

Sorry I was more meaning that it will likely happen ahead of the Norwegian “deadline” and could that happen against the UK 2030 target. Suppose it might happen, why would you take delivery of an ice car 31st December 2030? The depreciation as you drove it off the forecourt would be even more horrendous than it is now! 
 

idd

 

Setting a deadline creates a target, manufacturers then know they need to ramp up production of affordable replacements for the item being banned.

 

As electric car demand grows then cost of production will come down and naturally at some point ICE car demand will fall through the floor or the manufacturers will decide it is no longer economic to produce ICE cars, most likely either will happen before 2030, if it doesn't then the Goverment got it's sums wrong somewhere and car manufacturers will have cars no-one is buying.

 

Toyota is a good example of managing a change in technology - a few years back the simpe Yaris had a stop-start option, it gained you cheaper tax as it had low emissions.  At first it was on sale alongside the initial Yaris Hybrids but in order to encourage more people to buy the Hybrid option they dropped the stop-start from the petrol range, so you either paid the full tax on the petrol car or swapped to a hybrid model with some government incentives.  I note that the latest Yaris range is a single Hybrid engine option, they've removed a purely ICE option.

[AndyID]

Some info on transmission line efficiency here

 

http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/lost-in-transmission-how-much-electricity-disappears-between-a-power-plant-and-your-plug/

[black and decker boy]

1 hour ago, AndyID said:

Some info on transmission line efficiency here

 

http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/lost-in-transmission-how-much-electricity-disappears-between-a-power-plant-and-your-plug/

Thanks, nicely proving the point that using electricity, it’s it’s normal form (volts & amps) to directly power your car is massively more efficient than using electricity (after transmission) to convert / create hydrogen to then transport around the country and later recreate electricity within a car.
 

transmission & distribution loses being a mere 6%

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

7 hours ago, idd15 said:

........why would you take delivery of an ice car 31st December 2030? The depreciation as you drove it off the forecourt would be even more horrendous than it is now! 

 

 

6 hours ago, woodenhead said:

.......As electric car demand grows then cost of production will come down and naturally at some point ICE car demand will fall through the floor or the manufacturers will decide it is no longer economic to produce ICE cars, most likely either will happen before 2030, if it doesn't then the Goverment got it's sums wrong somewhere and car manufacturers will have cars no-one is buying......

 

 

Some car manufacturers are phasing out ICE cars quicker than others.

There will be a tipping point well ahead of the 2030 deadline, when it becomes painfully obvious that the purchase of an ICE car, even with plug-in capability or a mild-hybrid powertrain, is a very poor financial decision to make.

In fact, I would say that unless due to necessity,  you are desperately in need of purchasing a new car today, or over the next 12 months, then buying an ICE vehicle will cost dearly in the long run.

 

A big factor in the transition will be the leasing companies, who account for a very large slice of new car sales.

Their entire financial model is built on fleet purchase costs, versus residual values.

We are already seeing growing confidence in EV residual values, which is allowing affordable lease deals.

The reverse will start to happen with ICE cars.

As the leasing companies are working on a 2, 3 or 4 year horizon, once the ICE residuals start to descend more rapidly, they will take swift action to exit the market for new ICE cars.

They already know this and are planning accordingly.

Wise private purchasers will follow suit.

All this will happen well ahead of 2030.

How soon I don't know, but if I was to make a wild guess, I'd say after gradually moving in that direction, a big shift will occur sometime from 2024 onwards.

 

Recent and not so recent history tells us that when disruptive technologies begin to take over markets, the transition ceases to be progressive or smooth, with the incumbent technology suddenly finding itself standing on quicksand. 

I've heard this type of event being called "non-linear".

 

 

 

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Edited September 25, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[black and decker boy]

As I’ve posted before, Company fleets will be the big initiator in change.

 

take my employer, It currently leases around 1,000 vehicles for use by employees and 37% of these are already fully electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles.

 

So far in 2021, 88% of new orders were fully electric or PHEV. Our policy has been updated this week with all ICE options now removed. To qualify for v FB our car allowance, you have to meet the same standards.

 

The group’s work to date has seen emissions decrease to an average of 77g/km in 2020 from 133g/km in 2012.

 

my own EV will be one of many coming out of our fleet in 2023 for the 2nd market.

[AndyID]

4 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

Thanks, nicely proving the point that using electricity, it’s it’s normal form (volts & amps) to directly power your car is massively more efficient than using electricity (after transmission) to convert / create hydrogen to then transport around the country and later recreate electricity within a car.
 

transmission & distribution loses being a mere 6%

 

 

Oh, I'm pretty sure battery powered cars will be around for a very long time and there won't be a lot of ICE cars not many years from now. But what about the other forms of transportation? Trucks, ships, aircraft and even rail in certain cases.

 

And it's a 13.3% loss here   (At least it was. It might have improved a bit since then.)

[Ian J.]

14 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

But what will those synthetic fuels be made from?

 

There is concern that that dash for HVO / Green Diesel will see a further loss of food crop and / or forest as 3rd world countries plant the cash crops HVO producers need. 

 

Take the carbon straight out of the air where we put it - think of it as a resource waiting to be mined...

 

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

...

In fact, I would say that unless due to necessity,  you are desperately in need of purchasing a new car today, or over the next 12 months, then buying an ICE vehicle will cost dearly in the long run.

...

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If I were to buy a car right now I'd go for second hand petrol ICE, with my budget probably quite an old one (over 5 years old). I wouldn't buy a pure ICE new. I'd even be cautious about any type of hybrid. And I wouldn't buy a second hand diesel ICE, as they're likely to get banned from town and city centres in the not too distant future.

[AndyID]

19 minutes ago, Ian J. said:

 

Take the carbon straight out of the air where we put it - think of it as a resource waiting to be mined...

 

 

I see Iceland has started doing just that. Perhaps they plan to use geothermal energy to produce hydrogen and combine it with CO2 to synthesize liquid fuel? If they could do that it could allow them to export some of their abundant energy.

[AndyID]

I don't quite understand all the apparent antipathy about converting green energy into hydrogen. Yes, the process is not efficient but if the energy is otherwise going to waste does anyone really give a rat's about the efficiency?

 

The other argument seems to be about distribution. But there is no real need to distribute it if the hydrogen is stored and used locally generate electric power. And of course it can also be used in fuel-cells or even burned in ICEs with zero emissions (other than water of course) but that's not very important.

 

Also, if I understand correctly, the UK already has a very efficient distribution system for natural gas. Surely it would not be too difficult to convert it to distribute hydrogen or a derivative of hydrogen. The UK already did that when it converted from coal-gas to natural gas.

 

I realize this is drifting the topic from vehicles but it might be best to consider all aspects energy capture and distribution at the same time. For example, I'm fairly sure everyone would agree it's just silly to run battery powered vehicles on energy received from coal-fired power stations