Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Hobby]

16 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Where is the compatible explanation of how an internal combustion engine works, what is the difference between a diesel and petrol engine etc ?

The majority of car buyers and drivers have limited, if not absolutely no knowledge of these things…and don’t care.

I don’t see car dealerships having to explain the internal workings of an ICE vehicle, or the differences between the different types of transmission, or the different types of “automatic” transmissions.

 

Some car manufacturers offer a stupidly complicated range of engine and power rating options, before you factor in a choice of auto or manual.

Have a look at a small car like the VW Polo.

There are several versions of the same 1.0 ltr engine. Combine that with the 4 different trim levels, auto or manual and there must be over 20 different choices, just to have a 1.0 ltr engine.

For someone clued up, it’s ridiculously complicated, for no sensible reason from the buyers point of view.

How do you think the vast majority of customers for this type of small car, deal with this?

Some competing manufacturers make it much simpler, with easier choices.

VW make it needlessly complicated and they don’t run training courses or provide loads of information aimed at educating their potential customers over their buying decisions. They sell the customer what they think they need, or what the customer thinks they need, what’s available either from stock or from a factory order. The colour and finance cost are probably the most important factor at the end of the day.

 

That a rather disappointing post, we're not asking for an explanation of i/c engines and the analogy isn't relevant as we've been around i/c engines a long time and understand how they work. The reason we ask questions is because of the differences between how manufacturers are doing things, whether that be different types of hybrids to how EVs are charged, all of which are new to us. 

 

Thanks for nothing, except to confirm exactly what Woodenhead said. 🙄

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Hroth said:

It would also encourage the takeup of relatively inexpensive low range urban runabouts for commuting and shopping.

 

Like the Citroen Ami.

I like the idea but a large proportion of car buyers would worry their willy might fall off if they drove one.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Nissan are phasing out the CHAdeMO type charger, that they’ve installed on their 2 successive models of the Leaf.

Their new Nissan Ariya comes with CCS, as will all future models sold in Europe.

 

Very few EV’s overall will be using anything other than type 2 CCS in a few years time.

 

As for the simplicity of filling up with dinosaur juice.

I filled up yesterday.

Every pump had 4 choices with different 4 nozzles.
Diesel, Petrol and a choice of premium or super for each.

I didn’t find that confusing, but compare that with the simpler choice of only one, or a maximum of 2, types of electric charger nozzle.

Lots of buttons to press at the petrol pump as well.

Pay at the pump or pay at the kiosk?

Clubcard or loyalty card?

Did I want to pay with the same card or another card?

Type in the PIN.

Did I want a receipt?

All before a single drop of fuel started to flow.

 

.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Ron Ron Ron

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Hobby said:

The reason we ask questions is because of the differences between how manufacturers are doing things, whether that be different types of hybrids to how EVs are charged, all of which are new to us. 

 

It's pretty straightforward.

 

Got a plug in hybrid?

Plug it into a Type 2 socket.

Got an EV?

Plug it into a Type 2 socket.

Want to charge your EV faster?

Plug it into a CCS rapid charger.

 

That's about it really. It's not very exciting.

[TheQ]

13 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

This is RMWeb….use the train to get to work 😉

The nearest station is 10 miles away, I can't get to it on public transport, I can get to Norwich Thorpe railway station on public transport, that takes 3 or 4 hours and 2 or 3 changes of bus... The distance... 25 miles from home..

 

I think when they perfect self driving cars, a great many people will stop having their own car, a self driving taxi will be so much cheaper without a driver to pay for. They will return to their own hubs and charging stations..

[Hobby]

OK, lets try looking at it from RRR's post with the i/c engine analogy, as it's clear that you are so into your EVs/Hybrids that you can't see where we are coming from when we ask our "simple" questions. I know when looking at the Manufacturer's brochure what to expect when buying an i/c car, range, performance, etc., because I'm used to i/c engines, know how they work, know what happens to my mpg if I go on a long journey, or drive hard, or how mpg is affected by night time running, urban driving, etc. 

 

But I don't know what happens with, say, an EV. So what i'm after is some "real world" experiences (what I'd hoped to get after reading the thread's OP). How realistic are the "ranges", are some manufacturers better than others, how badly are the ranges affected by wet weather, night driving, motorway driving, etc., the list goes on. You regulars are clearly used to EVs so how about sharing some experiences?

 

Regarding Hybrids, similar questions, which ones are better and why, is plug in better than "self contained" ones? Which run on EV mode for the first few miles ("full" hybrids?), which ones kick in the petrol engine at the slightest sign of a hill or you go over 20mph, how economical are they when running on petrol/diesel after they've used up all the electric?

 

All I ask is either some helpful answers or to direct me somewhere that explains it all or has real world stats and had real world experiences, not just the stuff I could get from the brochure which is hardly reliable!

 

Does that clarify things better? I thought that was one of the aims of the thread, perhaps I was wrong?

Edited April 26, 2022 by Hobby

[woodenhead]

@Hobby I think the answer is to forget RMWeb for advice and simply go to YouTube where there are plenty of people who can explain this to us in a less than condesending manner.

 

Mocking our present knowledge is not how you win friends guys, we ask because we don't know and all we get is people taking the pi$$.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Hroth said:

 

No problem with that, but people on estates, or even quite large suburban towns may well be a distance from the nearest railway station. Other methods of public transport may not be available (Integrated transport systems? Ha!) and cycling is for the committed.

 

So a car is essential. An electric car would be ideal. What is needed would be park and ride facilities at suitable stations WITH RECHARGING FACILITIES! There should be a reasonable number of recharging points and as they would be aimed at commuters, they need not be the fast charge variety. Provided corporate greed doesn't kick in, an inexpensive recharge would be a major attraction and encourage more rail use too.

 

It would also encourage the takeup of relatively inexpensive low range urban runabouts for commuting and shopping.

 

 

I believe you knew very well my comment was tongue in cheek, but in essence your reply is absolutely correct and hopefully in the future there will be these type of facilities just as almost all major super store/shopping centres have or are installing now, in fact at Railway Stations for example they could even install lower powered chargers than seen at home, maybe 3.5Kw rather than 7kw, after all most cars will be there for over eight hours and after eight hours of 3.5Kw will be enough to easily top up enough for the most distant commuter from that station, and there could be twice as many.

 

Write to your MP…..I did, unfortunately I got what seemed like a cut and paste answer.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

@Hobby I think the answer is to forget RMWeb for advice and simply go to YouTube where there are plenty of people who can explain this to us in a less than condesending manner.

 

You asked questions. You got answers. you then argue the toss with simple answers so why bother?

[boxbrownie]

31 minutes ago, TheQ said:

The nearest station is 10 miles away, I can't get to it on public transport, I can get to Norwich Thorpe railway station on public transport, that takes 3 or 4 hours and 2 or 3 changes of bus... The distance... 25 miles from home..

 

I think when they perfect self driving cars, a great many people will stop having their own car, a self driving taxi will be so much cheaper without a driver to pay for. They will return to their own hubs and charging stations..

You know as well my comment was TiC…..but anyway, no one is saying walk to the station, but instead of driving use the train to work and leave the car at the station (which is what all these restricted town centre access laws are for, to encourage public transport) isn’t such a silly idea for a lot of people, I will be the last person to say do away with personal transport, we ourselves would be in a right pickle with only taxis available here were we live. I wouldn’t even like self driving “bubbles” for anything but repetitive journeys like to the shops.

[woodenhead]

Just now, 30801 said:

 

You asked questions. You got answers. you then argue the toss with simple answers so why bother?

No, you took the pi$$.

 

But it's fine, you can can continue to feel all self righteous, I am out of this thread.

[black and decker boy]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

As an example: You mention that poster in the VW dealership, do you know if it's online or if there is something similar to what you saw online, it sounds like it could help those of us who are considering going down the EV line. Is there a good website which describes how EVs work (not just the basics, I think we all know how electric motors work!), the various ways to charge them, what's required, etc.? Also similar for Hybrids? Somewhere you could refer us to so we can increase our understanding? Yes it's easy to do a search but how do we know that the advice we get is independent and not bias? That's where people like you come in!

 

Try this Zap Map - Guide to EV charging which has loads of info (Zap-Map is an EV owners bible with locations of all charging points and details on their price, availability etc). One sub-page of that guide is this Zap-Map EV connector types

 

Hope this helps :-)

[boxbrownie]

17 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

@Hobby I think the answer is to forget RMWeb for advice and simply go to YouTube where there are plenty of people who can explain this to us in a less than condesending manner.

 

Mocking our present knowledge is not how you win friends guys, we ask because we don't know and all we get is people taking the pi$$.

Here, plenty on this site even though it is just BMW, at the bottom is a range calculator for different situations/weather etc.

https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/topics/discover/electromobility/electric-cars.html

 

it would be difficult to explain everything on a post in RMWeb, so self learning with a few hours on the web is the best, most reliable way to go, for a specific question I have seen plenty of answers within these pages.

[black and decker boy]

50 minutes ago, Hobby said:

But I don't know what happens with, say, an EV. So what i'm after is some "real world" experiences (what I'd hoped to get after reading the thread's OP). How realistic are the "ranges", are some manufacturers better than others, how badly are the ranges affected by wet weather, night driving, motorway driving, etc., the list goes on. You regulars are clearly used to EVs so how about sharing some experiences?

 

Regarding Hybrids, similar questions, which ones are better and why, is plug in better than "self contained" ones? Which run on EV mode for the first few miles ("full" hybrids?), which ones kick in the petrol engine at the slightest sign of a hill or you go over 20mph, how economical are they when running on petrol/diesel after they've used up all the electric?

 

All I ask is either some helpful answers or to direct me somewhere that explains it all or has real world stats and had real world experiences, not just the stuff I could get from the brochure which is hardly reliable!

 

Does that clarify things better? I thought that was one of the aims of the thread, perhaps I was wrong?

So my 2019 build EV has a WLTP range (same as your ICE range given by the manufacturer) of 348 miles. In real world use with not using 100% of battery, I'd be confident of reaching 300miles in summer. I regularly complete 150 mile and 210 mile trips without needing to recharge en-route.

 

As with ICE, how you drive, the type of driving (in town, A road or MWay) and external conditions all affect efficiency and thus range.

 

In summer I routinely manage 4 miles per KW and on some trips hit 5 miles per KW.  In winter its 3.5 mile per KW with a best of 4 miles per KW. (I have a 75KW battery). I have done 18,000+ miles in the past 12 months working in deepest Norfolk and Cambs (I live in Bucks). Ive not had any issues recharging and not spent hours queuing or charging. My running cost is 4 to 5p per mile currently (pre-covid, I had a different journey mix and running costs were around 2p per mile)

 

As devils advocate though, I can access the Tesla supercharger network which other manufacturers vehicles  cannot. This does make a big difference. However, I also regularly use the rapid & superchargers by Gridserve, BP Pulse and Shell Recharge, all have growing networks and can be used PAYG. For more local use, slow chargers by BP Pulse, PodPoint etc are readily available and either free (eg at over 400 Tesco stores) or low cost (eg council car parks). There are also regional networks that I use alot, eg BE:EV in Greater Manchester.

 

Many non-Tesla manufacturers have link ups with 3rd party charging networks. VW is with ionity I think.

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by black and decker boy
extra info

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

No, you took the pi$$.

 

When you post stuff like this what else can I do?

 

Quote

But when I got to the filling station there is one pump and one nozzle.

 

[boxbrownie]

13 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

 

I can access the Tesla supercharger network which other manufacturers vehicles  cannot.

 

Not for much longer though apparently, have you heard any more about them becoming “open” yet?

 

Not sure why they would be doing this especially now more and more EVs are on the road, all it’s going to do is spoil the USP of buying a Tesla.

[Reorte]

16 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

In summer I routinely manage 4 miles per KW and on some trips hit 5 miles per KW.  In winter its 3.5 mile per KW with a best of 4 miles per KW. (I have a 75KW battery).

 

That's an interesting comparison, also interesting to see numbers quoted in "fuel" efficiency rather than just total range, cheers.

[Nick C]

15 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

As with ICE, how you drive, the type of driving (in town, A road or MWay) and external conditions all affect efficiency and thus range.

 

Would I be right in assuming that the road type effect is different to that of an ICE? With an ICE, I can generalyl expect it to be at it's most efficient when cruising at a steady speed of around 55-60, and much less efficient in stop-start urban conditions - intuitively, I'd expect an EV to be the opposite, as it'll be able to recover energy when braking and won't use any when stationary - is this correct?

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Nick C said:

 

Would I be right in assuming that the road type effect is different to that of an ICE? With an ICE, I can generalyl expect it to be at it's most efficient when cruising at a steady speed of around 55-60, and much less efficient in stop-start urban conditions - intuitively, I'd expect an EV to be the opposite, as it'll be able to recover energy when braking and won't use any when stationary - is this correct?

 

Pretty much. An EV is efficient all the time so the slower you go the less energy you use.

The quoted WTLP range has a mix of driving conditions so you can exceed it by trundling around town in traffic all day strange as that seems.

Edited April 26, 2022 by 30801

[boxbrownie]

Different EVs get different efficiency but it varies very little, unlike an ICE where a 1 litre small car would be far more efficient than a 3 litre 4X4.

 

Most will be between 3.5 to 4.5 miles per kw, you would have to drive quite carefully to get 5 miles per kw unless it’s cruising at maybe 65mph on a M-Way for 200 miles, but around town and up and down hills/rural roads figure on around 3.8 as a general guide.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Most will be between 3.5 to 4.5 miles per kw, you would have to drive quite carefully to get 5 miles per kw unless it’s cruising at maybe 65mph on a M-Way for 200 miles, but around town and up and down hills/rural roads figure on around 3.8 as a general guide.

 

The Mii is really quite efficient when you don't need the heater (No heat pump)

This was driving back on country roads on a warm evening. The journey out on a cold morning was a less fantastic 4.3 miles/kWh

[Hobby]

Thanks, chaps, that's more like it! Going on from the distance scenario, does that mean that EVs are less suited to long distance motorway work? I've noticed that there seem to be many medium/small sized EVs that are travelling on m'ways at 55/60mph, is this why? So if you had a fair mileage of m'way work would a hybrid be a better bet? I've been analysing my mileage, of the 10/12k I'm doing per year, around half is my commute to work (20 miles each way into a city) and driving "around town", the other 5/6k is long distance stuff, 200 miles plus on motorways and A roads, so you will probably see why i want things clarifying. I'm hoping a hybrid owner (Paul?) may be along shortly with some experiences!

 

Sorry, chaps, one other thing, can you tell us which EV you are talking about, I guess that B&D's is a Telsa and 30801 mentioned a Mii! 😀

Edited April 26, 2022 by Hobby

[Guest]

Just now, Hobby said:

Thanks, chaps, that's more like it! Going on from the distance scenario, does that mean that EVs are less suited to long distance motorway work? I've noticed that there seem to be many EVs that are travelling on m'ways at 55/60mph, is this why? So if you had a fair mileage of m'way work would a hybrid be a better bet?

 

If someone's doing 55/60 they're trying to eke out range. If it's an older 20ish kWh battery car they'll be looking at 50 miles between stops.

Plug in hybrids should make sense. Do all you daily driving on electric and just use petrol for the annual trip to see Auntie Flo.

I don't really like them because they struggle to get a usable range on battery. The new Range Rover hybrid has a good range but it also costs a hundred grand...

 

Bog standard EVs are starting to give you 200 mile+ ranges which makes long distances with a stop for lunch and a wee little different to a fossil car.

[Hobby]

1 minute ago, 30801 said:

If someone's doing 55/60 they're trying to eke out range.

 

Thought as much! It seems to be Leafs, and smaller stuff, we've just come back from a trip to Scotland and that's how I noticed it.

 

1 minute ago, 30801 said:

Plug in hybrids should make sense. Do all you daily driving on electric and just use petrol for the annual trip to see Auntie Flo.

 

That's what i was thinking...

 

1 minute ago, 30801 said:

I don't really like them because they struggle to get a usable range on battery.

 

Ah, yes, that's why i was asking about the types of hybrids! The one I was looking at (on Motability) was the Toyota Corolla estate which (just about) has a big enough boot, but from what I can see the i/c engine kicks in over 20mph, it doesn't seem to have a range on "pure" battery power which would make more sense for how I use it. Hence I was asking for an explanation of the various types of Hybrid so I know what to look for. I think @PaulRhB's plug in hybrid does, but I can't see any smaller versions (and SUV/4WD are no use as SWMBO can't get in or out of them as they're too high!

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Hobby said:

The one I was looking at (on Motability) was the Toyota Corolla estate which (just about) has a big enough boot, but from what I can see the i/c engine kicks in over 20mph, it doesn't seem to have a range on "pure" battery power which would make more sense for how I use it.

 

I don't think Toyota do a plug in hybrid. They have that infuriating ad campaign where they describe their cars as 'Self Charging' when really they just run on 100% petrol.

On a motorway your hybrid will struggle to better a conventional car since at that speed it's running with a direct mechanical drive anyway. The gains you'll have are from the engine being tuned a bit differently.