Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[BR traction instructor]

We are working to all three of those golden rules…what exactly is the infringement that you refer to?

 

We are using the VW recommended charger to routinely charge to 80% and typically allow the charge to reduce to around 30% before recharging.
 

When an occasional charge above 80% is needed we time the end of charging to coincide with our departure.

 

We don’t leave the car standing with over 80% charge.

 

We rarely use public/ultra fast chargers.

 

I’m not seeing any infringements of the golden rules.

 

We accept that the performance of the 12 individual cells will deteriorate over time and that it will become necessary to replace them individually as that happens…the alternative will be having to rely on expensive public chargers (£20 per charge instead of £4 typically) in order to complete our Cheshire/Cumbria journeys. It may be that we spread the cost best/avoid wasteful public chargers  by maintaining charge capacity over e.g. 90%/replace deteriorating cells before a warranty limit is reached. We just hope to have a good number of years motoring before this starts to happen.

 

BeRTIe

Edited August 25, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[Guest]

1 hour ago, BR traction instructor said:

We are working to all three of those golden rules…what exactly is the infringement that you refer to?

I’m not referring to any infringement you are making. I’m referring to the potential for VW to cite these rules when people come to make a warranty claim.

VW seem extremely cautious here where really you just want to be able to use the car as you like.

[BR traction instructor]

…treading the line between applying the sensible rules/adapting an expensive car to our needs/spreading expense of replacement cells/eking out max range over time is as good as it gets for us.

 

BeRTIe

Edited August 25, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[boxbrownie]

Actually a bit shocked by those warranty limitations, they do seem to be very restrictive and tbh very easy for VW to say you haven’t been charging according to the regime, and how do you prove you have been?

As I mentioned before it looks like VW are smarting from the dieselgate issues.

[Kelly]

1 minute ago, boxbrownie said:

Actually a bit shocked by those warranty limitations, they do seem to be very restrictive and tbh very easy for VW to say you haven’t been charging according to the regime, and how do you prove you have been?

As I mentioned before it looks like VW are smarting from the dieselgate issues.

 

Written like most warranties really then. And not unique to cars, though cars are a bit unique in their own ways in terms of warranties. 

 

The only value warranties tend to have is for manufacturering defects. But proving they are can be difficult. 

 

They have of course a solution for these shortcomings,  namely extended warranties,  insurance and or leasing rather than buying. 

[boxbrownie]

The BMW battery warranty seems to be quite straightforward and not at all with the “exceptions” as seen above.

 

”Maintaining your BMW i Battery Warranty.
To maintain your BMW i Battery Warranty, your vehicle must be inspected at the correct service intervals as recommended by your BMW i onboard service indicator system. Checks and remedial work must be carried out, where necessary during those inspections.

Claims cannot be accepted for technical defects or excessive capacity loss caused by an accident or one of the following reasons:

– Your BMW i was operated under conditions for which it was not homologated for, e.g. in a country with different homologation regulations to the one it was originally supplied for.

– Your BMW i was operated abnormally or overstressed, e.g. at competitive motor sports events.

– Parts have been fitted to your BMW i which were not approved by the manufacturer, or your BMW i or parts of it, e.g. software, have been manipulated in a way that was not approved by the manufacturer.

– The instructions on use, maintenance and care of your BMW i vehicle (especially according to the owner’s manual) have not been followed.

– The high voltage battery has been opened or removed from your BMW i vehicle by someone other than an approved BMW i Service Authorised Workshop.”

 

I have the highlighted the specific part which basically in the owners manual says, don’t leave the vehicle with a depleted battery as it could harm the battery, and if leaving the vehicle in storage for a length of time fully charge before storage.

 

There are no other rules or exceptions or specific instructions for how much you should charge the battery for, it basically says charge it to full, and drive.

 

I was sure there were no other conditions which is why those VW words shocked me a bit, I’ve just scoured the i3 owners manual and warranty.

[21C123]

So how does only charging to 80% work with a hybrid or PHEV ?

 

Im looking at a Skoda superb PHEV, does anyone have any experience with that vehicle ?

 

thanks 

 

Roger

[Hibelroad]

Well I don’t have a BEV but I think my next car will be one. However I am stunned by the thought of only 50% battery capacity being available. For the price they are I will be looking to use 100% battery capacity and it will be charged and discharged to suit me, not the maker. Therefore I will be giving VW a swerve, I am rather interested in the forthcoming BMW iX1 anyway which will hopefully have a less needy battery. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Are the same stipulations or recommendations being made by Audi, Skoda and Cupra, for their own versions of what are exactly the same cars underneath the bodywork?

 

 

.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, 21C123 said:

So how does only charging to 80% work with a hybrid or PHEV ?

Don’t bother. Just use it how you like.

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Are the same stipulations or recommendations being made by Audi, Skoda and Cupra, for their own versions of what are exactly the same cars underneath the bodywork?

 

 

.

Good question, I wonder.

[BR traction instructor]

Looking at this the other way around, are VW being very honest about how to get the best from your battery whilst the other manufacturers are saying do as you please?

 

After all, why would one battery be different to any other?

 

BeRTIe

[boxbrownie]

5 minutes ago, BR traction instructor said:

Looking at this the other way around, are VW being very honest about how to get the best from your battery whilst the other manufacturers are saying do as you please?

 

After all, why would one battery be different to any other?

 

BeRTIe

😆 I admire your faith, to me it just smells of a bit of a “get out” clause.

 

The very odd bit though is if and when it does need repairing they will only repair it to what it might have been at that age, it’s like having a 50K mile blown engine replaced under warranty with a secondhand engine with 50K miles on it.

 

Just doesn’t sit right.

Edited August 25, 2022 by boxbrownie

[BR traction instructor]

…we don’t intend allowing it to reach 70% of its when new range cos we’ll be spending money that would be better used on replacement cells. We’ll just monitor any deterioration over time.

 

BeRTIe

[Guest]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

, it’s like having a 50K mile blown engine replaced under warranty with a secondhand engine with 50K miles on it.

One that smokes a bit.

I consider their accepted 78% SOH under three years or 40k miles to be very broken. I wouldn’t touch a used car like that with a barge pole.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, BR traction instructor said:

…we don’t intend allowing it to reach 70% of its when new range

TBH it’s extremely unlikely for that to happen no matter what you do to it.

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, BR traction instructor said:

……After all, why would one battery be different to any other?

 

Because they are and  can be.

Not only different battery chemistry, but importantly, different battery management software.

 

 

.

[Kelly]

The ECU will be doing the monitoring and will likely be keeping a log of how often, what speed/voltage for the power supply is used, how low it is drained, how long it is left on charge etc. The ECU/charging system will likely be cutting off charging at set points to protect the batteries as well as explained by others in the previous posts (following my admittedly rather simplified view of how LiOn batteries are typically succepital to degredation over time). The manufactuers will likely have written their warranties to cover them for different temperture/climate eventualities as well as these have an effect on the life and the performance of the batteries.

 

Of course, we'll soon probably see the next generations of batteries start to hit the market (Tesla's Cobalt batteries and Toyota's Solid State batteries), they'll potentially bring better range, weight and charging speeds. In the case of the Toyota Solid State batteries much less chance of fires (which is a real danger of current LiOn batteries if punctured) and smaller, thinner and lighter, so able to be placed other than the chassis potentially (iirc Teslas have been talking about their next generations of batteries being within the structure of the car body, which would make it much harder to replace however).

[Vistisen]

2 hours ago, Kelly said:

Teslas have been talking about their next generations of batteries being within the structure of the car body, which would make it much harder to replace however

Not to mention making it much harder for firemen to cut vehicles apart to save lives in serious crashes.

[MPR]

20 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

Not to mention making it much harder for firemen to cut vehicles apart to save lives in serious crashes.

This video gives a better idea of what a structural battery pack looks like - the batteries remain in the floor, but are in a much stiffer structure. The way the body is built is very different to what has gone before and is itself radically stiffer and simpler.

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by MPR

[Hobby]

Interesting... Have they crash tested it yet and if so was the damage repairable compared with other, conventional, cars? He went on and on about insurance companies not wanting to repair modern cars but I wonder with its construction if it's more susceptible to getting written off then the equivalent car from other manufacturers... Or is it just another way to get people to buy more!

[Metr0Land]

So is petrol becoming cheaper than electric with the October price rises in the UK????

 

I have a Ford kuga MHEV 2.5L petrol engine which I've been very pleased with and get 56mpg over the 9,000 miles I've driven.  With petrol at 160.9p per litre (£7.31 per gallon) that equates to a petrol cost of 13.1p per mile.

 

With long lead-times for new cars of most brands I bit the bullet in June and 'ordered' a PHEV.  I say ordered, most of you will know at the moment it's more of an 'expression of interest' as I put no money down, was given no delivery date and no price for trade-in.  However I did fix the list price of the new car and the finance deal, both of which could actually come down (in my dreams) should there be better offers.

 

The Kuga PHEV is/was ~£1,300 dearer than MHEV at the time (there's is no full EV version) so I'd need better net mpg to cover the additional cost* Over 2 years I reckon I need to get 125mpg and over 3 years 89mpg just to cover the increased purchase price.  *I've not included any additional costs here for home charging point or needing to buy car-to-charger cables. 

 

The 125mpg should be achievable and 89mpg well achievable.  The Kuga PHEV (and Escape in N America) should give 35 miles on pure electric.  There's plenty of videos on youtube of people who've tried Kuga/Escape PHEV's and without fail they've achieved that.  Given that a high pct of my trips are no longer than 20 miles for the r/t and my main shopping trips to Carmarthen are 30 miles r/t, I should spend a lot of time on electric. In fact I have personal knowledge of someone getting 150-160mpg as their daily commute is under 30 miles and that covers a lot of their driving.  All good so far.

 

AIUI as a rule of thumb you get 3.5 miles of electric driving per kWh (plase tell me if that's way off).

 

At today's prices (Apr-Sep22) the price cap is 28p per kWh which is pretty much what everyone charges.  Electric cost 28/3.5 = 8 pence per mile at the full price (assumes no contribution from solar or off-peak).  This clearly makes electric a winner with home charging, even at the full price of electricity.

 

From October the price cap raises to 52p per kWh with potentially more rises to come in January.   October cost 52.3.5 = 14.85 pence pence per mile at the full elcectric price.

 

Now, all kinds of complications arise.  I don't have an off-peak rate as I haven't needed it until now, and don't know if Ovo (or any other supplier) will take on new customers for off-peak electric.  I have solar generating 2 kW max but it's not alway sunny, so what contribution do I assume?  If I assume say a third comes from solar then it's still better than petrol giving 9.8 pence per mile. 

 

No-one's quoting off-peak prices for new customers (unless you know someone who is).  It seems to be half-rice at the moment so half-price of the 52p per kWh rate would be 7.4 pence per mile electric which still beats petrol for now.  However unless I'm mistaken the off-peak rate is unregulated so could in future  be a higher pct of the daytime price which would change the relationship again.  Not to mention the fact that petrol price will fluctuate.

 

But, unless I'm mistaken, if you have to charge your car at home in daytime, and have no contribution from solar, then from October electric is more expensive per mile than petrol?

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Metr0Land said:

With petrol at 160.9p per litre (£7.31 per gallon)

 

Where are you buying that from? Over 175 round our way :(

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

Interesting... Have they crash tested it yet and if so was the damage repairable compared with other, conventional, cars?

 

They will have crash tested it and have thought about repairs. Although being Tesla they don't like people to mend their cars...

 

I suppose a similar thing would be the i3 which is a big lump of carbon fibre. There are BMW approved repair procedures for it. There are certain points in the structure that BMW designate cut points. You cut whichever of those surround the damage and then glue in a repair section. BMW claim the cost is comparable to a steel car but you won't be getting this done at you local backstreet metal basher.

[Metr0Land]

17 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

Where are you buying that from? Over 175 round our way :(

 

West Wales - Carmarthen area and north of CMN curr 159.9 - 164.9 for petrol.